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Conflict and complaint thread

 
  

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Tom Coates
09:55 / 04.10.06
Yup, he's now been banned and is now sending me increasingly stroppy messages via the comments facility on my weblog.
 
 
Sniv
10:23 / 04.10.06
Link? I'd like to see how this story ends. The twist on the last page was very surprising, I must say.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:36 / 04.10.06
You know, I totally missed that post on the previous page. Hmmm. I was trying to brainstorm ways to give PW an in back here, perhaps after a cooling-off period. Is it profitable to go down that road, now?
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
11:24 / 04.10.06
I think re-applying, waiting, and starting afresh is as much of a cooling-off as one could generate otherwise, and provides a much cleaner slate. If that's desirable, of course.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:50 / 04.10.06
Fair point. Shame, really, though.
 
 
Olulabelle
11:51 / 04.10.06
You know, I totally missed that post on the previous page.

I think quite a lot of people did - it got lost amongst the discussion on banning in general. The fact that in the main it was ignored probably didn't help PW, but then the post didn't help either.
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:00 / 04.10.06
I think re-applying, waiting, and starting afresh is as much of a cooling-off as one could generate otherwise, and provides a much cleaner slate. If that's desirable, of course.

I think that would be best, yeah. If he wants back in as badly as all that PW can re-apply. Having to go through the admission process a second time may give him a little bit more appreciation for his membership.

To be honest I am a little annoyed at him at the moment. I genuinely didn't think he deserved to get bounced if only he'd decided to stop mucking about with the "I heart Barbelith/you're destroying me" stuff. It's a little aggravating to stick up for someone only to see them self-destruct all over the place.

PW, if you're still reading, you may still have my email address from that time you helped me out with the linking on that Barbelith Writer's Group thing. If so feel free to mail me if you want to chat. Probably best not to shout at Tom for something you kind of brought on yourself at the end.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:29 / 04.10.06
Yes, Evil's right. I was also hoping there'd be a way for him to come back, but when I saw that post last night it was like "well, you've pretty much sealed it now". Which is genuinely a shame, but if someone won't let you help them, what can you do?
 
 
Char Aina
12:32 / 04.10.06
i am dissapointed i wasnt around for this, although i'm not sure if PW would have listened to me anymore.

i like to think he and i got on, and that he would have gained from my thoughts, but i dont know. if you are reading this, PW, i think you might do well to take the advice i offered you a while ago.
i also think you may well need to seriously examine your relationship with the board and, far more importantly, with feedback.
i'm specifically thinking of criticism, but it seems that feedback in general isnt something you deal with cleanly.
i guess may be wrong, but then i guess i may be right.

i am willing to give you some advice via email if you want it, and i am sure you can get my contact details through someone if you dont already have them.
ask them to ask me, if you feel a need.



on the love/hate/destruction stuff; that all seems like fairly obvious defence mechanism stuff to me. it's a wall, a shield, something designed to stop attacks from reaching the core personality, the centre point of the PW identity that gets hurt by the critical feedback.

i'm not sure it worked in the end, but then defence mechanism don't always work successfully to defend.

understandable, if not useful.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:38 / 04.10.06
I would say I'll miss him, but I was already missing him, and not much liking the monster using his name.
 
 
Char Aina
12:47 / 04.10.06
yeah.
i think the whole thing was a wall of defence, to be honest.
its a shame he felt he needed one, and i dont really understand why.
protecting the core by building a sacrificial monster so that 'it' would be thrown of barbelith in his stead only makes sense if PW was going to be excluded before he transformed, which i really dont think he was.

ach, i dont know.
i hope he figures it all out, and i hope it doesnt take him too long. somewhere in there is a nice guy trying to find a happy place, i reckon.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:56 / 04.10.06
Incidentally, reading all the exchange last night, at the time I genuinely thought everyone had pw on ignore.
 
 
Olulabelle
12:56 / 04.10.06
I don't really feel like we came to a consensus though. I mean I know PW said 'ban me' but I don't think he really meant it (obviously shouldn't have said it then, etc.) and we hadn't really sorted out what we were going to do, had we?

It just so happened that he said it as Tom read it and so Tom did. Prior to the 'ban me' comment was that the general consensus? That we should? Only I thought it was to supply a list of questions for PW, perhaps in a new thread and now I feel a bit like things were just suddenly decided. PW's post even got lost amongst the rest of the conversation about banning in general. I think perhaps it was all a bit hasty.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:56 / 04.10.06
I was already missing him, and not much liking the monster using his name.

What Stoat said. Admittedly I did find early PW a bit vexatious at times but I really think his heart was in the right place, and I was perplexed and saddened as well as angry with the way things changed. I wish things could have ended differently but I don't see how.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:00 / 04.10.06
It just so happened that he said it as Tom read it and so Tom did.

To be fair, he probably did know Tom was online at the time, as he'd been posting in the few minutes prior, and (not to do any mind-reading here) were I Tom, having been agonising over the correct and fair way to go about things, I'd have taken that as a slap in the face and responded in the same way.
 
 
Char Aina
13:08 / 04.10.06
if he asks to be banned and then is, it becomes easier to tell himself he wouldnt have been banned otherwise.
i think it's all part of the same self preservation impulse.

i think lula has a point, though.
i'm not convinced this had reached a conclusion yet, and i think the ban may have been more a result of confusion than organised thought.
 
 
grant
13:08 / 04.10.06
Only I thought it was to supply a list of questions for PW, perhaps in a new thread and now I feel a bit like things were just suddenly decided. PW's post even got lost amongst the rest of the conversation about banning in general. I think perhaps it was all a bit hasty.

I get the same general impression -- that he was sort of hunting up questions to answer, then said, "Oh, ban me, I don't give a toss," at precisely the wrong moment.

There's also something discomforting about conversation continuing here after things were supposed to be quiet -- not necessarily that it was talking about PW per se (I don't think it was) but that since it wasn't, it was off-topic and might have been better in another topic (like the Wishlist).
 
 
Char Aina
13:14 / 04.10.06
I don't really feel like we came to a consensus though.

i dont think we ever really do.
we get varying degrees of agreement, but i think consensus is impossible on barbelith.
look at the WI only thread for an example.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:16 / 04.10.06
it was off-topic and might have been better in another topic (like the Wishlist)

Yeah, there was a page or so of total Wishlist stuff.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:19 / 04.10.06
I'd have taken that as a slap in the face and responded in the same way.

It was a silly thing to say when the situation was as serious as it was.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:24 / 04.10.06
As I suggested, but nobody seemed to be wildly interested in doing.

What actually happened: PW offered to answer everything with a question mark at the end:

I will go though this thread and take out every sentence with a Question Mark at its end (those in others' posts, of course). This will take me AGES (Sadly); but, if you want, I will do that and then try to answer them ALL as though they are coming from a place of LOVE.

Evil Scientist suggested that he deal with them a few at a time rather than in a batch.

PW then asks what he is meant to type (that is, say).

Stoats suggests that he answers the questions.

PW asks which questions, and asks people to repost them - that is, goes back to asking for questions to be asked afresh.

Tom said:

What we're asking you to do is to look through some of the things that you've said recently in this thread and elsewhere on the board and either (1) explain why you believe them to be true with solid and reasonable argument and listen seriously to other people's responses and reactions without getting defensive or (2) apologise and take responsibility for the things you've said in error or in the heat of the moment. You're trying to convince the board that it would be an error to ban you because even though you disagree with a lot of people, you're still able to argue reasonably and honourably about those disagreements. That doesn't mean just standing up and saying, "oh I'm sorry, I didn't mean it", it means actually demonstrating that you're prepared to make the effort to explain why you've acted the way you have.

You don't have to address everything, but it's pretty clear that there are some major issues you've been having with the board and which the board has had with you. If you don't know what they are, then that's a real problem and I'm sorry but that's a sufficiently good reason alone for banning you from the board. If you choose not to put in the effort of trying to convince people (and within a reasonable period of time) then again, I'm afraid that's a pretty good reason to ban you.

I don't think it would be reasonable to let this continue indefinitely. If you want to stay on the board I think you should be able to present a decent case as to why you should within a day. I don't think that's over the top.


At which point PW says:

I was showing you how some of you treat others that are different.

I was leading by example.

I was trying to bring Love back.

You have killed this incarnation of paranoidwriter.

The shame is now on you.

What have I done to help people around here? What have I contributed?

Hate?

You decide...

I ask questions. I do not Brand you; you Brand yourselves.

Your pain cuts others too.

Shame - on - you.

Ban me. I couldn't give a toss anymore.


Not having noticed that post, I then say:

On the issue at hand - I could ask PW some questions, but I honestly don't know if that would be useful.

So. There was some confusion about what he was meant to be doing - although either of the options presented by him originally or by Tom could have started the ball rolling. I could have posted questions, if he'd hung around a bit longer, but, looking into your hearts, would that have helped? Or would it have made PW angrier and more unhappy at not being understood?
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
13:26 / 04.10.06
There was another warning sign that banning was rather imminent by anyone's standards.

I will leave if you choose.

A statement that will ring bells with anyone having dealt with trolls in the past.

It's a bit sad that it degenerated to this level and we weren't allowed to achieve a consensus on action. I guess the next step as a community is to decide what, if any, lessons are to be learnt from this.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:32 / 04.10.06
It's a bit sad that it degenerated to this level and we weren't allowed to achieve a consensus on action.

Yeah, we were. The consensus was that PW be given a chance to address the questions being asked. It's possible that it was cruel even to ask this, as it would have been outside his abilities to have given answers in a fashion much less with a content acceptable, and it would just have made him cross. PW was given a series of options, including answering the questions that had already been asked, showing an understanding of why this situation had been reached and a willingness to resolve it or puttng his suit in the care of a third party, none of which he chose to take. He instead asked to be banned, and had that wish granted.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:34 / 04.10.06
He instead asked to be banned, and had that wish granted.

That is basically what it came down to. As I say, if people won't let you help them...
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
13:49 / 04.10.06
Yeah, we were.

Merely echoing sentiments expressed upthread.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:22 / 04.10.06
Not sure what you mean, there, but if you mean it's a shame that the gap between PW asking to be banned and being banned was so narrow - well, I take the point, but since the things that could have prevented the banning seemed no closer, I can understand why that happened. So. Also, the space between PW asking what questions he should answer (again) and asking to be banned was only about 15 minutes, so I think he was running pretty fast at that point.
 
 
Char Aina
14:26 / 04.10.06
i was suggesting that there is never a true consensus on barbelith.
perhaps ze was echoing that?

perhpas, like myself, ze was uncertain of quote how full a consensus was reached on this, and whether it could fairly be described as one?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:35 / 04.10.06
Hmm. I do, however, think that when the one guy who can ban you, and who owns the place, and who has made it clear in the thread that he is a) very busy and b) very keen on giving you a way out, starts posting lengthily about fairer and more reasonable ways of dealing with problems, and you come back with the post reproduced above...

...I'm not really sure consensus is a live issue any more.
 
 
Ticker
14:37 / 04.10.06
perhpas, like myself, ze was uncertain of quote how full a consensus was reached on this, and whether it could fairly be described as one?

I've been following this for a while and it appeared to me that PW short circuited the need for censenus to ban by outright asking to be banned. Before that the consensus was for him to respond to the questions, I felt that was a pretty clear group request.

Upon asking to be banned Tom responded and obliged. At that point I'd say it doesn't require consensus it was a direct request by the user. A flippant ill thought out request but one nonetheless that was between the poster and the person with the button.

I wish PW had taken the time to rest himself and interact with this topic in a more thoughtful manner. I'll miss him, wish him well and a part of me does hope he could rejoin.
 
 
Ganesh
14:46 / 04.10.06
i was suggesting that there is never a true consensus on barbelith.

Agreed, but some are truer than others - hence the desirability, in my mind, of some sort of formalised discussion process prior to banning. A week of discussion may seem a long time (or even "way way too much") but I don't think it's an exceptionally high price to pay, as a community, for a truer consensus in terms of board opinion.

Anyway. I'm slightly taken aback at the speed of ParanoidWriter's banning but, like Haus, can appreciate that there was little or nothing to be done, realistically speaking, which might've slowed things down and provided breathing space. For what it's worth, I don't think the apparent change in ParanoidWriter's behaviour in recent weeks is wholly explicable in terms of a "wall of defence" and certainly not simply by him being a troll (generally speaking, I think he isn't).

I think this is one situation where a period of enforced 'cooling off' (ideally with a certain amount of email dialogue, as Evil Scientist and others have offered) would've been useful in helping us get to grips with the possibile factors underpinning an apparently sudden change in someone's posting behaviour. Perhaps ParanoidWriter having been banned outright might have the same effect: I'm not sure. I suspect our thoughts around banning are not quite the same as our thoughts around more explicitly temporary 'time out' periods. I'd like us to explore Haus's classical ostracism in more detail.
 
 
Ganesh
14:50 / 04.10.06
A flippant ill thought out request but one nonetheless that was between the poster and the person with the button.

Yet Sypha Nadon has 'acted out' on, I think, two occasions, demanding to be banned - and we haven't obliged, on the grounds that his flippant ill thought out request appeared designed to evade responsibility for his actions, and that allowing him to do this was Not A Good Thing.

I think we need to talk about this in more depth, specifically what we and Tom mean when we appeal to "consensus", and when the concept can and can't reasonably be jettisoned.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:53 / 04.10.06
I think one major practical difference with Sypha was that he didn't actually say it to Tom.
 
 
Ganesh
14:54 / 04.10.06
I think he did, didn't he?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:55 / 04.10.06
Did he? Now you come to mention it... I'm not sure, to be honest.
 
 
Psi-L is working in hell
14:58 / 04.10.06
Yes, he did.
 
  

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