BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Burning down the Haus part 2 - Attack of the Clones

 
  

Page: 1(2)34567... 17

 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:51 / 10.07.06
I imagine the problem people have with Haus is that they think everyone should be nice to them, even if they behave in an idiotic fashion, and Haus does not do what they think he should.

Maybe that's a part of it, but it's far from the whole story, because there are plenty of other people around here who'll attack or point out stupidity - others who don't get singled out for it in the same way that Haus does.

I think we could avoid some of this, Haus, if you could trust others to be able to do that without your intervention - it seems to be the case that if there's an argument of this sort, you'll become involved at some point, which is why you're noticed doing it more than anybody else.

There's also, I suspect, a hefty dollop of people believing that you're in a position of power some way above everybody else on the board - a perception that has been strengthened by the very specific way in which Tom has defended you in the past.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:25 / 10.07.06
Maybe you're turning into an underground sensation because you have the startling audacity to start a thread about yourself. You sick puppy.
 
 
Ticker
19:32 / 10.07.06
There are a few posters who come across as supa-charged.
If we agree there is an interpretation filter happening with this medium the only obligation any poster has is to present themselves as accurately as possible.

If conflict arises, the resulting dialogue should clarify perspectives. The considerate thing to do is withhold outright attacks until the perspective is confirmed. Then if the posters involved really do mean that *that way* then sometimes it is appropriate to take them to task.

The ability to say someone's argument is flawed without saying the person is flawed is an act of diplomacy. Sometimes we do feel strongly enough to forget that we are only getting a sliver of the whole. There is a difference between stating that someone's conduct is inappropriate and stating that they engage in a manner others have not been trained in.

For myself, I find the presence of several posters...bracing...to say the least. I value their critical review of my statements and the resulting dialogue. Sometimes my ego has been stepped on, but in retrospect what the hell was it doing hanging out on the stairs in the first place? (Oh how I adore thee, Barbelith...)

There is a difficult balance to be struck between offering every poster respect and reading every post with a critical eye. Smart people say dumb things sometimes.

I feel Haus' contributions are extremely productive to the greater exchange. I have personally found him to be willing to reevaluate someone's counter arguments when they are expressed as sincerely held rather than just tossed out.


YAY for the Haus.
 
 
kim & mik
20:26 / 10.07.06
Oh, DM, you poor, poor, dung-spattered village idiot.

DM to his credit seems to have brushed this comment off good-naturedly. To me it comes across as the horribly condescending language of an intellectual bully. You know you can run rings around the guy with your rhetoric, i'm sure you'd have a slightly harder job if english was his first language, so why do you get so involved every time? what's the point? It clogs up threads with endless reams of circular argument and scares people away from contributing.

I waited months for a Barbelith account but by the time i got it, i wasn't sure i wanted to post somewhere where it seems there's somebody waiting to jump on any loosely constructed sentence. perhaps not many people come out and say this, that’s normally the case when there’s a bully knocking around, but i'm sure there’s plenty more who think it.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:39 / 10.07.06
Perhaps Dead Megatron should have been left to misrepresent the bell hooks piece and prattle on about how one day a real rain is going to come and wash the scum off the streets, then?
 
 
■
20:41 / 10.07.06
There's also, I suspect, a hefty dollop of people believing that you're in a position of power some way above everybody else on the board

I think there's something in that, and I think it's because you're able and, more importantly, willing to engage at a far higher and exacting level than most of us either want or could hope to. In our everyday lives we can get into an argument and think we've won or lost, or even learned something, but we can walk away and let it go. Here, the argument and the rebuttals to our arguments are still going to be there even when we've calmed down and thought it was all over.
When someone is as good at picking apart every detail of a post as Haus is, and who sometimes picks up on things that weren't even part of what you thought the argument was about, the result tends to be a daisy chain of arguments which unfurl in all directions so as well as feeling backed into a corner, you're firefighting (sorry for the mixed metaphors) all sorts of accusations which are probably spot on but which distract you from what kicked it all off in the first place.
I am one of the people who occasionally PMs people to advise they step back and chill out when they're in the middle of one of these exchanges (not only those involving Haus) and I may have used the term "bullying" once or twice*. This is because it is intimidating when you suddenly have to subject all your assumptions about the world to intense scrutiny when you're simply not as well equipped to argue your points as those demanding you do so, and (from experience) it's nice to know someone understands what you're going through.
Yes, Haus, there are a few people who just can't deal with your standard of argument (I'm often among them, the main reason I've never been in Headshop), and I think we are entitled to drop out of heated discussions without shame (unless we've been total dicks writing about sexy parties) just because we can't keep up or can't articulate our positions. Perhaps we need to coin a new TLA for when it gets too much - TMFM (too much for me) - which could be used as a kind of AFK for argument.
Anyway, all that said, I've come over the past few months to a realisation that you're not the big ogre I used to think you were and that my problem with you was that you're so damned infuriatingly RIGHT so much of the time. One of my mottoes is to demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty and some part of me doesn't trust someone who seems to have all the answers.
So, to sum up, yes you are difficult to deal with, but not for the reasons you might expect. And the board would be a much worse place without you. Dude.




*I think there's another potential thread about how being expected to be on the same level intellectually as the people you see as peers (other members) can bleed into a sort of bullying, but deep down I now don't think Haus is guilty of that.
 
 
*
20:55 / 10.07.06
Thank you, Olulabelle, for making the distinction between "I feel" and "I think." "I feel that..." almost invariably means "I think this thing, but I don't want it to be subject to critique."

So, on the basis of how I have seen interactions with Haus and various others proceed, I think the following things. In expressing them, I am making conjectures about some people's emotional states and motivations which are hidden from me. If I am wrong about them, please correct me. (I have bolded certain key phrases to provide some contrast and help make the text visually easier to read.)
I think that Haus is often a target for various people's anger, because he often takes it upon himself to engage with people in a mode which they are not prepared for— namely, that of a teacher challenging a student to become more rigorous in hir thinking. Personally, I appreciate that when it occurs, but if one is not in that mindset already, it can throw one off one's stride, and I accept that various people react in different ways to that. There may be some question as to whether anyone has the right, or the responsibility, to engage in this kind of dynamic. To help answer that, we should bear in mind that there is no hierarchy being enforced here— anyone can theoretically be a teacher, and we all are at some times students.
I think that Haus, while being admirably qualified to do this challenging in almost all cases in which he engages in it, is not always perfectly suited to doing it, because I think that he sometimes fails to meet his "students" where they are at. I think that while he knows that all people come to barbelith with different backgrounds, different ability levels, and different intentions, he does not always take this into account in speaking to others. This leads to frustration on his part, I believe, which is translated in his posts.
I think that this frustration does sometimes lead Haus into ad hominem attacks which in a cooler moment he would disown. I have usually seen it in cases where someone has seemed to me to be attacking or baiting him. That doesn't excuse him of the responsibility for his words; his words also don't excuse his interlocutor from the responsibility for attacking or baiting him. Even if no attack was intended, the perception of one can escalate arguments which are unpleasant for the rest of us to witness, so if you find that someone is perceiving an attack that you didn't intend, please have the goodness to say something like "I didn't intend to attack you; I'm sorry," and rephrase your argument.
I think that many people do not wish to be challenged to think more rigorously, and this is unfortunate for them, because I observe that it has been established over many years that barbelith is to be a place where this occurs. I think it is entirely appropriate for people to be made aware that this is within the existing remit of the boards. If barbelith members want to adjust this remit to exclude such challenges, we can talk about that, but I will personally resist that kind of change.
I think that some people wish to be challenged to think more rigorously, but have a lot invested in being right. In fact, I know this to be the case because this describes me well. This makes a challenge to their mode of thinking potentially painful. The way in which Haus challenges people does not always take this into account.
I think Haus sees a responsibility to the boards to keep making these challenges, in order to keep barbelith a place where people are expected to think rigorously. I think he sees less, or no, responsibility to have particular care for people's feelings when he makes these challenges. These are valid perspectives— it could be argued that we cannot control the feelings of others, and thus we have a responsibility only to express ourselves in as polite a fashion as required by circumstances and avoid intentional ad hominem attacks. I have a different perspective, however; I think that my responsibility to challenge people depends on meeting them where they are and delivering the message in a way which will enable them to hear it. I am not always good at doing this— in fact, if you look at the history of my posting, I am more hit-or-miss than Haus is; while sometimes I have been successful, at other times I have been more sarcastic and condescending than Haus usually is, and with less cause. However, I am not frequently a target as Haus is. I don't know why this should be.
I think that if people are feeling hurt, attacked, confused, embarrassed, or resentful because of the way anyone on the board is expressing hirself, they have a responsibility of their own to express these feelings clearly, instead of only reacting to them. I would like for people to take it upon themselves to learn how and practice doing this. I will endeavor to do this myself— the last time I consciously tried it, I was told that I was being condescending, so I may need to find some more effective technique.
I think that no one on these boards is always right, is always perfect, is always good at communicating. I think that instead of assigning greater responsibility to established posters, or making judgments about a person's character on the basis of one or two interactions, or dismissing an argument based more on who we judge the poster to be rather than what they are saying and why, we would all benefit from keeping this fallibility in mind.

I feel frustrated when I think I see Haus use his considerable intelligence and knowledge to engage with people in a way which I myself, in my ideal world, wouldn't. I think I sometimes fail to acknowledge that it's perfectly okay for Haus and myself to have different strategies even though we seem to share the same goals. I also feel frustrated when I see people arguing a position which I think is untenable, but I don't myself have the skill to explain why. I feel sympathetic when I see posters react in frustration against what they seem to perceive as an overwhelming attack for no good reason, but I also feel angry when I see posts which espouse arguments which are based in racist thinking which the poster refuses to acknowledge or even consider. Sometimes, as with DM, this sympathy and this anger are in tension with one another, and this makes it difficult to know how to respond.

I have never, that I can recall, PMed anyone and said "I think Haus is wrong and is being mean to you." I have once, that I can recall, PMed Haus and said something like I thought he could have expressed himself differently to better effect, and I believe it was to do with an exchange with you, DM. Our difference was stylistic and strategic, and had nothing to do with content. If I have concerns for how Haus is comporting himself on the boards, he can rest assured that he will hear about them from me directly; the same goes for everyone else. Any such communication is intended in the spirit of respect and cooperation, and unless I explicitly say so has no bearing on my esteem for anyone personally.
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:25 / 10.07.06
Ok, then, i got five minutes to spare now, so here it goes:

it's always hard to see you may have stepped over the line, but no impossible. My reaction to the xchange in the gangsta rap was largely emotional, and thus a bit exagerated. I honestly feel- or think - my comment was not caused by any underlying racism on my part, and still don't, but I may well be wrong on this. I'll be more careful. I also should never have mentioned PM sent to me in confidence. After all,it is a PRIVATE message. If the people who PMed me wanted to engage Haus - or anyone else, since not all PMs were specifically against Haus - they would have. My revealing of the existence of such PMs was wrong and unexcusable. I was angry at the time, but still...

Reading all those posts in this thread (specially the last one by entity - always refreshing to see hir writing) reminded me of the value Haus has for the Board, as well as my own shortcomings (I certainly do not have the intelectual prowess to take Haus one-on-one), so here's my bit for a better Barbelith:

I hereby vow on my family's name never to post again in any thread before reading it completely, as well as any text linked therein. Not even in Convo! This should prevent further bickering, hopefully. And reduce my posting rate, also.



But, in the meantime, someone who Flyboy actually listens to please ask him to stop trying to pick a fight with me? Thank you.
 
 
grant
21:30 / 10.07.06
I am more hit-or-miss than Haus is; while sometimes I have been successful, at other times I have been more sarcastic and condescending than Haus usually is, and with less cause. However, I am not frequently a target as Haus is. I don't know why this should be.

Haus posts a lot more than you do. Since May 2003, as of the time of this posting, you've created 55 topics and 1,782 posts. Since December 2001, Haus has created 254 topics and 13,136 posts. You're averaging 445 per year (roughly) and Haus is averaging 2,627. Thus, higher profile.

Not the whole story, but a factor.
 
 
Triplets
21:48 / 10.07.06
Reading all those posts in this thread (specially the last one by entity - always refreshing to see hir writing) reminded me of the value Haus has for the Board, as well as my own shortcomings (I certainly do not have the intelectual prowess to take Haus one-on-one)

It's not necessarily about mano-a-mano, DM. Debates here aren't to be won (unless one or more of the participants feels that way) they're there to be analysed, spun and chewed so everyone can get something out of it and come away with a better opinion.
 
 
Dead Megatron
22:02 / 10.07.06
It's not necessarily about mano-a-mano, DM

I know, of course you're right. That was - and I apologise in advance - a small humorous touch!!!!!11!! (as well as a tacit recognition that Haus is right way more often than me)

I'll stop now.
 
 
Triplets
22:09 / 10.07.06
Nah, it's cool. I did get the sense you were saying "In a debate I don't think I would be able to match Haus' analysis pound-for-pound".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:14 / 10.07.06
Hello all - I think I'm rather glad I've been out tonight - priests are marvellous for focusing the mind beyond immediate objectives - there have been some very interesting and informative comments here to which I'm glad my back brain has not had a chance to interpolate responses.

However, I would like to say one tiny thing:

Again, I personally don't think there is a need to point out people's grammatical failings,

Olulabelle, I know you're not being malicious here (unlike Kim and Mik, who _have_ chosen to be malicious, bless them, but on adorably limited information), but I really don't think this happens very much at all. In fact, I would go so far as to say that in the last ...um... four years I can think of one time this has happened, which was in a Games and Gameplay thread, yesterday, in which I joined in with a series of gags about "you're/your" and "there/their/they're", perhaps unwisely. There was another point, in 2002 or thereabouts, when I corrected someone's spelling of "hypocrisy", because I sincerely believe that if you are using an accusation that big you should have encountered and discussed the term often enough to be pretty familiar with it. It's hard to enumerate times I haven't done this without doing it, but you might think, for example, of how many variant spellings of the b-word have cropped up in the "High Society" thread, and how much I have commented on them - not, to my knowledge, at all. If you, or Kim and Mik, bless their cotton socks, can find many other examples of this occuring, I'd be interested.

Anna - that's a very fair point, and not one I'm immediately inclined to respond to, in part because it's pretty indefensible. On the other hand, if we assume that there is some perception of yours t. as occupying a special place, it might be useful for e.g. getting people more involved in the general conduct of Barbelith.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
00:41 / 11.07.06
I really feeeeeeel, with feely feeling feelers, that if Haus was only interested in picking holes in poor spelling/grammar/ect then my raised-by-dyslexics self would have known all about it. I've only seen him pull people up for that stuff when they've either a) sneered at someone else's typos, or b) been completely unintelligable and needed to rework a post so that anyone else could read it. I feel that if this was a serious issue, there would have been blood in the Jorene Celeste before now. BLOOD.

I do feel that at times allowances are not made for the fact that DM is from a different culture, and that it is unfair not to make these allowances. However, I feel that the ruckus in question was not one of these times. If those times were Midsummer, then this time was roasting chestnuts on an open fire while Jack frost nipped at its nose. Just for illustration.

I would like it if we could not fight lots on Barbelith. That would be sweet. But the thing is, if Haus ever just shut up, that would be one less voice raised against, oh I don't know, maybe blokes who think it's okay to call a female author a bitch (because she wrote a sexy party novel from a femsub perspective aha DO YOU SEE).

I'm kind of glad that when I log on, tired and fed up and oh my various gods do I really have to wade through all those PMs, and someone has just said something so messed up even I can't not challenge it--I'm kind of glad to know that there will be at least one other voice there.
 
 
SMS
01:42 / 11.07.06
What does "adsum" mean?
 
 
Jack Fear
02:07 / 11.07.06
Administrative Summary—i.e., a sentence or two giving the salient points only. Business jargon.
 
 
SMS
02:41 / 11.07.06
I think the posts here do a decent job of analyzing what makes you a pain in the ass and what makes you an important contributer to the board.

I will say that there are topics I completely avoid because of a lack of trust. That's not going to ruin anybody's day — not having my voice on a topic — but you did ask.

I haven't ever PM'd anyone about you, but I thought about it once. A kind of, "that's Haus, for you. Best if you brush it off," kind of PM.
 
 
Seth
04:09 / 11.07.06
Can we please stop using NLP presuppositions as though they were wise truths governing all human behaviour? The meaning of your commmunication is the response it ellicits was only ever intended as a frequently useful guideline to untrain people from blaming other people for not getting it and to encourage them to develop a bit of flexibility and responsibility in the way they communicate. Please. This is why people think people who use NLP are unthinking idiots. Please.
 
 
*
04:28 / 11.07.06
This is why people think people who use NLP are unthinking idiots.
You're why I don't.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:23 / 11.07.06
What does "adsum" mean?

"I am here". As in, you can just stick your hand up and say "yes, I did that".
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:53 / 11.07.06
This Haus is a headcrab hotel (unlike Kim and Mik, who _have_ chosen to be malicious, bless them, but on adorably limited information)

Well, unless there's some massive dispute happening elsewhere that we are unaware of, I don't think Kim and Mik were being 'malicious'. They had an opinion and thank goodness they felt they could express it. I don't fully agree with it, I wonder if they were aware of DM's (now) acknowledged habit of jumping into threads without reading links and what they feel of the fact that for over a page of the thread that sparked this he was discussing an article he repeatedly admitted he hadn't read. They have a point that we should always try and remember the effect our language has on other people, but they were doing so using an example of someone who was at the end of their tether with DM because of his behaviour.

So, thanks for your contribution Kim and Mik.
 
 
Olulabelle
07:23 / 11.07.06
Haus, I do apologise. I recalled you were involved in a bit of a spat a while ago about picking people up on grammar and it must have struck me more strongly than I thought.

One of those 'you always do this' times based on a few examples. Sorry indeed.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:28 / 11.07.06
Quite right, Lady. "Malicious" was unfair. "Delusional", possibly, unless ze/they can come up with some evidence for this pouncing on loosely-constructed sentences. "Ill-informed", possibly. "Prejudiced and prejudicial", perhaps. "Claiming the support of an imaginary silent majority", indubitably. But the assumption of malice was as yet speculation. Say neukoln complex, possibly, but not malice.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:31 / 11.07.06
No problem, Olulabelle. People tell me and others that I correct people's spelling and grammar quite often. After a while, if it is repeated often enough, any story seems like it must have a basis in truth.
 
 
kim & mik
09:06 / 11.07.06
you've provided yourself with an example here Haus.

when I said 'i wasn't sure i wanted to post somewhere where it seems there's somebody waiting to jump on any loosely constructed sentence'

i wasn't only referring to the grammar and spelling of a sentence but also the intention. it seems you have misread the intention of my sentence above and are now referring to me as malicious, possibly delusional, possibly ill-informed and possibly prejudiced.

meanwhile you continue to ignore the fact that you called another member of the community a 'dung-spattered village idiot'. perhaps you could apologise for that instead.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:21 / 11.07.06
Ah - so you don't quite get what "sentence" means, and would like that to be my fault, since you want "intention" to be a subset of "construction"? OK, I'm cool with that. Whatever, as they say.

As for dung-spattered village idiocy - I don't think I am ignoring that, but neither do I feel particularly inclined to apologise for it. It was said in profound irritation, but the basis for that irritation was three pages or so of trying to get DM to engage profitably with the source material he was commenting on, in the face of what seemed utterly inexplicable resistance. I sought only to describe accurately how DM's behaviour was making me see him, which I think I did pretty successfully.

On condescension - I notice that you appear to have missed the bit quite a lot earlier on where DM said, in response to my comment that questions about whether he was basing his opinion of bell hooks' attitude to rap on having read the article were quite serious ones:

There, there, of course they are.

I note that you have ignored that condescension entirely - another sure sign of neukoln syndrome, I'm afraid.

Now, DM has undertaken to read threads and source material before commenting on them. This is definite progress, if it happens, and seems to me to be a profitable outcome that is already manifest from this discussion. So, that's good.
 
 
Dead Megatron
09:22 / 11.07.06
And there was this one time, if memory serves me right, in the Death thread (during one of our arguments) that you implied I shouldn't be listened to because I didn't spell "rethoric" correctly. But it was a singular case, as far as I know.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:31 / 11.07.06
That's possible, DM - could you refresh my memory as to what the "Death" thread was, and I'll take a look?
 
 
rising and revolving
13:04 / 11.07.06
Fair cop Seth. Won't do it again.
 
 
Quantum
13:05 / 11.07.06
There are other posters far more concerned with grammatical correctness (it's rhetoric by the way DM). There are other posters who appear just as (sometimes far more) condescending. Why does Haus get the flak?
 
 
Quantum
13:07 / 11.07.06
Sorry, should read "I feel that" ect ect.
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:10 / 11.07.06
That's possible, DM - could you refresh my memory as to what the "Death" thread was, and I'll take a look?

Sure, it was in the Fear of death Thread, in the post with a picture of the nervous system. And here's what you said:

Here's a tip, DM. If you say "rhetorical", what an able reader will understand from that is "Hello, I am Dead Megatron. I am not very bright. You are cheating by using words". Grown-ups don't throw around accusations of rhetoric, in particular not if they don't know how to use it or how to spell it.

It was not that much of an accusation, and the spelling was mentioned only as a detail (as I said before, complaining about spelling is far from being a pattern with Haus), but it happened.

it's rhetoric by the way DM

Yeah, spelling in English just seems to make no sense, sometimes. What the hell is that "h" doing after the "r", after all????
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:49 / 11.07.06
Yeah, DM - that's a bit of a different thing. As Mik & Kim demonstrated above, the word "rhetoric" is very rarely used to mean what it actually means, and is instead used to mean "cheating by using words", to quote myself. "You are using rhetoric", in this context, means little more than "I don't like you". As it happens, however, if you are going accuse somebody of rhetoric, or semantics (it's always semantics. Nobody is ever accused of wasting time arguing about comparative linguistics...), or hypocrisy, you should be familiar with the terms and what they actually mean, and certainly familiar enough to know how they are spelled. However, that was by no means the first problem with what was going on there, so it was probably gratuitous. I have, I hope, learned my lesson.

*Threadrot*

The "h" after the "r" in "rhetoric" is precisely because it is _not_ an English word. It's a loan word - specifically, loaned from the Ancient Greek "rhetor", meaning a professional tutor, usually of public speaking. Thus, "rhetoric".
 
 
Quantum
15:08 / 11.07.06
it's always semanics.

Is it? Is that a rhetorical device?
(Who's critical of spelling now eh? Not 'clumsy typo boy' Haus! Haw haw!)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:09 / 11.07.06
OMGIHATEYOU!
 
  

Page: 1(2)34567... 17

 
  
Add Your Reply