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Burning down the Haus part 2 - Attack of the Clones

  
  

Page: 12(3)45678... 17

 
 
Quantum
15:12 / 11.07.06
Are you wasting time arguin about comparative linguistics... again?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:15 / 11.07.06
Miss - how come he gets to do it and I can't? Miss...
 
 
Quantum
16:16 / 11.07.06
Sexist.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:22 / 11.07.06
Ahem.

Quantum, I find your tone bewildering. Anybody looking at my post will be able to see that I made no such errors in my typing, and thus that you are deceitfully attempting to portray me as somebody who would make such rudimentary mistakes. As such, I demand that you be BANNED FROM BARBELITH.

(I'm sorry; I'll take everything seriously again now, I promise.)
 
 
gridley
16:22 / 11.07.06
I think your online persona is a bit of an aquired taste, Haus. The more used to it I get, the more I enjoy you. At this point, I can't imagine Barbelith without it and for the most part I wouldn't want you to change.

The only tweak I would make in you, Haus--and I only suggest it because I think you're requesting some feedback--is that when you're putting the smack down upon someone, you sometimes use three or four posts when one post (or perhaps two) would do. While I can certainly understand wanting to address each and every point your "enemy" makes--and obviously everyone in an argument wants the last word--it does tend to clutter up some threads and thoroughly derail some others.

It's not exactly fair to hold you up to a higher standard in this regard than any other poster, but you do volunteer your involvement in a great many altercations and that paints the target upon your back a bit more vividly.
 
 
kim & mik
16:33 / 11.07.06
if it's any consolation Haus, i had no intention, when using the word 'rhetoric' of implying you were 'cheating with words'. instead my intention in the use of the word was the same as found in the concise oxford dictionary:

'the art of effective or persuasive speaking or writing'.

it hadn't even crossed my mind you would take it the other way. but how were you to know?

I think your skill with the english language is remarkable, that's why it frustrates me when I see you using it to tear apart the writing of essentially well meaning members of the community in what often seems like an angry and frustrated way. would they not respond better to a gentler informative style just like you've exhibited with DM over the past few posts?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:34 / 11.07.06
if we assume that there is some perception of yours t. as occupying a special place, it might be useful for e.g. getting people more involved in the general conduct of Barbelith.

Nar.ci.ss.ist.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:46 / 11.07.06
Qu.ot.ing:

There's also, I suspect, a hefty dollop of people believing that you're in a position of power some way above everybody else on the board - a perception that has been strengthened by the very specific way in which Tom has defended you in the past.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
17:05 / 11.07.06
A problem I have had with Haus in the past, if I can recall, was that I felt that he was often telling me what I was trying to say, instead of maybe thinking about what I was trying to say and responding to it. I felt this.

I think the problem I had with Haus is that I often thought he had the back up of others, mainly fly boy, in any argument I have had with him, and as such, it was like boxing fog.

The main problem I have with arguing with Haus is that he is so much better at it then I.

On a positive note, while you can be a little condescending, you more than willing to talk to someone in PM form to try and fathom what the fuck they're on about, maybe even help them out (I really like the student/teacher metaphor from page one), as opposed to just bad mouth them then fuck off. So every cloud.
 
 
Dead Megatron
17:39 / 11.07.06
it was like boxing fog.

A kangaroo made of fog, mind you. A Fogaroo!

Now, on the serious front:

would they not respond better to a gentler informative style just like you've exhibited with DM over the past few posts?

I agree, Haus' posts in this thread, for example, are nothing if not gracious and constructive. When Haus is calm, he's virtualy irrefutable. And very pleasant to listen to.
 
 
Triplets
18:22 / 11.07.06
The more used to it I get, the more I enjoy you.

Incoming Boboss Bombardent!
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:32 / 11.07.06
Haus killed my father and burnt down the palatial Ghost Manor, robbing me of my inheritance. And he did it in such a sardonic style which just made it sting all the worse.

not much to say beyond that, except for that I'm pretty confident Haus doesn't really enjoy being condescending or hurtful, at least not very much, and that I don't believe for a minute all the rumors I've heard about him using the line "I'm a big deal on internet message boards" to help him with the casual sex. Not for a minute.
 
 
Char Aina
19:36 / 11.07.06
he said that was the only time!!!1
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:20 / 11.07.06
I think the problem I had with Haus is that I often thought he had the back up of others, mainly fly boy, in any argument I have had with him, and as such, it was like boxing fog.

A kangaroo made of fog, mind you. A Fogaroo!

Yes. Well. That would be because they agreed with each other. Haus is the icing you see and Flyboy is the glace cherry and the cake is a fondant fancy made by you. I like to think of myself as one of those edible ball bearings that get caught in the teeth but really I'm more like those chewy sweets that everyone picks off and leaves on the plate. The point being that if you take the time to read the words and think about them then you end up without any fog but a scrummy treat.
 
 
Olulabelle
20:36 / 11.07.06
Angelica. Green jelly diamond. Contributes nothing to the value of the cake and is similar in that respect to me.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:01 / 11.07.06
Well, if it weren't for you, I wouldn't know that the inexplicable green jelly diamond on cakes is called angelica, which is about the best thing I have heard today. So, there's that for starters.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:39 / 11.07.06
But enough of these trifling concerns...
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
22:08 / 11.07.06
stoatie, for that comment, you should be taken into custard-y. A ha. A ha. A ha ha ha.
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
23:04 / 11.07.06
Ze should be dragée'd by wild horses for that one...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:14 / 11.07.06
The Haus always wins.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
03:06 / 12.07.06
I think Haus is often very astute. His criticisms of other posters are usually right on the ball. I do think that he could be a bit more gentle occasionally, but he acts according to his nature, as do we all, and his nature is to call people on what he sees as flawed reasoning and ask them for clarification on said reasoning. I have no problem with that.

The only problem I have is that he seems to use the stick when the carrot would be more effective. His aggressive posting style seems to put people back on their heels and swinging immediately, which doesn't necessarily make for good discussion. His posts can often be construed as attacks, and someone who feels they are being attacked is far less likely to respond reasonably than someone who feels that they are being engaged honestly as an equal.

I've been around these parts for a while, but I typically stick to the more frivolous fora (Convo, G&G, Comics) when it comes to posting. It's mostly because that's what I'm into, but I also have no interest in getting involved in a squabble that becomes a board-wide attraction. And when Haus gets into it with someone, it always seems to become some sort of weird Barbecarcrash that everyone wants to check out. It has nothing to do with Haus' intentions, or actually engaging with the poor bastard who's getting "Haused," but rather what is expected of "Haus getting into it with someone." It becomes a spectacle rather than a learning experience, and it makes me feel a little icky.

That's just me, though (Ooh! Check the disclaimer!). I haven't the time or energy necessary to argue with Haus about anything. Except baseball. I'll argue baseball with anyone. And win.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
04:56 / 12.07.06
This is all very well - Haus only a brain in a jar, I suppose, but then what are any of us, really?

If you met him, you would like him.

You would.

All of you.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
05:24 / 12.07.06
Only if he likes cocktails.

I don't trust anyone who doesn't like cocktails.
 
 
*
06:03 / 12.07.06
I think one of the things that gets me into a bind with you, Haus, is that I often also have the idea that you're using stick when carrot would work— but I have no evidence for believing that carrot would work. In fact, I have no evidence that you haven't tried carrot on many many similar occasions and thoroughly exhausted that option. In fact, now that I think of it, I rather suspect you have made everything from strained carrots to mediterranean carrot salad to carrot cake of prior situations which you see as similar, and that you now seem to me to be using stick instead probably results from learning that an excess of carrots is not desirable for you, or effective to keep you from being troubled by the people who invite themselves to your table time after time. Am I again making a wrong conjecture?
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
09:24 / 12.07.06
I waited months for a Barbelith account but by the time i got it, i wasn't sure i wanted to post somewhere where it seems there's somebody waiting to jump on any loosely constructed sentence. perhaps not many people come out and say this, that’s normally the case when there’s a bully knocking around, but i'm sure there’s plenty more who think it.

Hoping this thread isn't now regarded as effectively over, but I feel the need to second this (although, I hadn't identified Haus as solely responsible). (I'd also like to add that, as someone with a currently quite vulnerable overall mindstate, and a long history of being frustrated by being misunderstood about most aspects of my views on life, there have been times when i've really wanted to post threads on Barbelith about things that I have felt very passionately about, but haven't dared to because of fear that an "eviscerating" response to my opinions (ie, one framed in ad hominem rather than purely engaging-with-the-argument-itself terms) might tip me over the edge from feeling merely a bit vulnerable to feeling actually suicidal...)

I also have very big problems with the (alleged) NLP principle of The meaning of your commmunication is the response it ellicits, mainly because I have often been accused of this, by people who seem to have accepted this as recieved wisdom, when my communication does not ever have this purpose, or indeed any other purpose other than to express the thoughts I am trying to express (yes, I'm aware that this isn't true for everyone, or indeed the vast majority of people, and is a "symptom" of not being neurotypical on my part) - as may be imagined, trying to explain in clear and simple terms how an invisible disability affects one's prospects in terms of such things as job interviews, attempting to establish social networks, etc (with the aim purely of fostering accurate understanding), and being met with the response that one is merely trying to get a "reassuring" response of the "of course you're not" type, or is trying to do some sort of ego-boosting straw-man thing by eliciting "sympathy", is an extremely frustrating experience... (Jane Meyerding expresses, albeit tangentially, some of my thoughts about this sort of thing (and also stuff such as "i feel" statements being regarded as a "better" alternative to "I think" or non-prefixed statements) here)

(I also think there are several extremely dodgy things about NLP in general, but that's probably another thread...)

I was actually thinking of posting a thread (not specifically referent to Haus, but touching on issues which have troubled me in my reading of these boards, including the (to me, from my newbie/outsider perspective, scarily harsh) treatment of such posters as Bruno and Dead Megatron) with a title along the lines of "feeling too intimidated to post on Barbelith"... I have no idea if this sort of thing is problematic for any others here or not, but I think i'd like a discussion of whether ad hominem arguments have any place in serious, open-minded and sensitive discussion (which latter I have found in unprecedented-for-the-internet levels here, to give this whole community its deserved props) or not...

hoping not to be "eviscerated" for this, and emphasising that it's an outsider's perspective, from a standpoint of not knowing the histories of posters beyond the threads i have read or who on Barbelith is generally regarded as respect-worthy or otherwise, and taking everyone's posts (as I think it's generally right to do) on their own terms, without automatic dismissal because of who they come from...
 
 
Quantum
09:36 / 12.07.06
Don't be shy, there'll be no evisceration here.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:39 / 12.07.06
If anyone can honestly read the entirity of the Hip-pop 2 and Crazy World threads and come to the conclusion that the treatment of Bruno was "scarily harsh", then I would genuinely like to hear their theories about how to deal with someone who is so consistently evasive in their arguments, sweeping in their generalisations, superior in their mindset, often quick to lower the tone of the debate and get defensive/aggressive, and just plain stubborn...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:40 / 12.07.06
However, I think we really need to get a handle on what people mean by "ad hominem" - I think it's probably the most consistently misused term on Barbelith - or is at least running approximately neck and neck with "political correctness".
 
 
Quantum
10:16 / 12.07.06
...and 'semantics' and 'reality tunnel' and 'snark' and...
 
 
illmatic
10:21 / 12.07.06
One point I think that’s being missed here is that neither Megatron nor Bruno are newbies to the board, both have been around for what, best part of a year? and as such people have had time to get used to them, their posting styles and their points of view (in Bruno’s case, DM not advancing a consistent point of view that I can see). There’s also a variant in tone with talking to both of them from many posters– I myself have swung from quite civil to (due to increasing frustration) quite rude and back again (ie my last post in “Crazy World”) with both of them. There’s not a tradition on the board of jumping on newcomers IMO, unless they advance really offensive and unexamined viewpoints. If people do find the treatment of Bruno "scarily harsh" I’d go back and look at Alas’s posts to Shadowsax which are a masterclass is remaining reasonable and trying to communicate in the face of wilful ignorance.
 
 
illmatic
10:23 / 12.07.06
.. the point being that it's this kind of history that leads to frustration and more aggressive posting - it very rarely springs up out of the blue.
 
 
Dead Megatron
11:31 / 12.07.06
DM not advancing a consistent point of view that I can see

I'm not even sure I have a "consistent point of view", to be honest. And I know I step over the line sometimes, but me swears it's not on purpose.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:51 / 12.07.06
Good points Illmatic.

I do think that the perception of DM being hounded by Haus is understandable from a newcomer's perspective though. I do occasionally think "Jeesh, again you two?". But it's important to consider a few factors here.

and I'll direct the following to Mr Megatron as he's an active participant in the thread, and would also like to note that I feel DM and I get along fairly well on the times we've interacted on the board so none of this is meant as a dig.

DM,

I do think that part of the reason Haus tends to get, well, curt with you is that you do still have a tendency to post without really considering what you're saying. Haus, from my perspective, has been one of the principal people who's called you on this. I personally think that you really seem to have come on quite a bit since what was initially quite a rough start on the boards.

The normal progression of your encounters with one another always seems to end with you agreeing with Haus's point-of-view and promising post a bit less impulsively. But when you do it again, and initially seem less than concerned that you're doing it, well, I understand that a certain amount of frustration builds up.

Does that make any sense to anyone outside of the monkeys in my lab?

The following, obviously, directed toward Haus with the same "Not a dig!"-factor intended.

Haus,

When I entered your name into the site's search engine I got a few threads from various years gone by where similar situations have occurred and I understand from general banter that it happens from time to time (from the look of the threads generally when someone's losing an argument with you).

This thread suggests that you're well aware then that certain posters (without wanting to judge either them or you) react to your writing style in an adverse way. Do you feel that you should have to alter the way you write in order to sooth troubled brows?

This all kinda ties in with the threads on expressing anger on Barbelith in some ways. That there is a perception from some that the veteren posters (and moderators) should be perhaps held to a higher standard when it came to showing restraint (not a view I personally subscribe to).
 
 
foolish fat finger
13:57 / 12.07.06
Dupre- You didn't "just" anything - you kept on posting your opinion on the piece, despite *still* not having read the thing.

Megatron posted based on the info that was in the pasted bit of text, from the article. Which would presumably be the salient points condensed to back up the particular point that flyboy was making at the time. If you need to read an entire article to understand what flyboy is saying, that strikes me as breaking up the flow of a discussion a little too much. It’s like saying ‘I want to make a point based on a paragraph of dialogue from war and peace, and now I insist you read the entire book, for context…’

in my opinion, it seems obvious that links should be optional to the dialogue, with all points relevant to the discussion being available within the thread itself.

For instance- in theory, if the page went down, flyboy’s argument no longer makes sense, if he is relying on information contained therein.

Personally, if I posted a link to an article I wanted people to read, I would ask them to read it politely, with deference even. It’s quite something to ask someone to spend five minutes of their time reading something that you think is interesting or pertinent, but they may well not. I certainly wouldn’t hector someone with ‘read the article yet?’ I guess I would respect their choice not to do so.

And so to Haus (hi Haus!) Well, I am sure not gonna post much in a thread entitled ‘attack of the clones’*- a curious title that appears to suggest that anyone who disagrees with you is somehow cloned from everyone else who does. From this, I posit that you do not wish to find out what is causing the alleged aggravation on the site, as you have already categorised any ‘dissenters’.

As far as I can see, you never apologise. Myself- if someone seems really annoyed about something I posted, I would probably examine it, maybe apologise. (unless I meant to annoy them (rare)). As far as I can see you like to dish out abuse, like calling megatron a “dung spattered village idiot”… you get called on it, and you say, (paraphrased) I don’t really feel particularly inclined to apologise. I was angry when I wrote it, because I spent 3 pages trying to make Megatron read the article.

Well, that is just dumping- you’re saying that megatron should do what you say, and if he doesn’t, you are within your rights to insult him in whatever way you see fit, and not have to apologise. other people have apologised for stuff in this thread, why can’t you? Why does sorry always seem the hardest word? (and not the Hausest word?!)

Anyway, if you are searching for the reason why you might get some people’s backs up, I think this may be a good place to start. That’s my prognosis.

(I sense someone will make the point, “Megatron should not comment on an article he hasn’t read” & so to re-iterate- he didn’t. he commented on a highlighted portion of the article which flyboy had pasted, which contained enough info to get the gist of flyboy’s point.)

I am telling you what I think cos you asked. It’s not an attack, which exempts me from clone-dom. At least in my mind… anyway, hope this helps you in your never ending quest for personal excellence (comment intended as humourous, not snarkastic)

If you met him, you would like him.

I agree with you Grandma, I reckon I would like Haus a lot if I met him in person. He’s Welsh, for starters…

*not strictly true, that, was it…
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:18 / 12.07.06
DM did comment on the article, he offered an opinion on what bell hooks was saying in it, an opinion easily demonstrated as incorrect. It is not like asking someone to read War & Peace, due to the difference in length. This has been covered above and in the thread itself.
 
  

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