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Is something wrong with Barbelith?

 
  

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miss wonderstarr
07:10 / 07.12.05
How can this be?

It's no great mystery that in some cases the threads were interesting, even though Yawn's comments were pointless.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:57 / 07.12.05
Duncan -->)]F[(<-- And yet, somehow, it seems to have stimulated further conversation in the majority of these threads. How can this be?

And yet, if everyone were to follow yawns example then we'd have several hundred threads even less readable than they are at the moment. People should only bump threads when they have something worthwhile adding. This is called 'discussion'.

Why didn't you just pm yawn your concerns, lady?

See 'discussion'. It was my opinion that this was not a private matter between me and yawn (hence 'private message') but something which it was worth adding to this thread, as it's a 'discussion' (God I wish this board did video, I feel like I should be doing air speech marks) about the state of the board. And you and toksik have added to it by saying you don't think what yawn did was that bad. Happy now?
 
 
The Falcon
14:09 / 07.12.05
Oh, see I just thought you were carping for the sake of it. This does seem to have occupied a fair portion of the latter end of this thread.

And here's more.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:25 / 07.12.05
I'm concerned that yawn liked the subjects enough to bump the threads but couldn't think of anything at all to say. A C- and try harder.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
09:09 / 08.12.05
good on the dunckster.

all i gotta say.
 
 
Triplets
14:20 / 08.12.05
Which you've been proving.
 
 
matthew.
02:57 / 08.02.06
A rare positive note.

Is it just me, or has Barbelith been really active for the past three months? It seems to me that Barb has been a little bit more fun (which is to say, the people have been more fun) and more... well....

Since Christmas, we've had
-Hawksmoor
-Fathers4Justice
-Barbannoy becoming a playground
-fennecs fun
-non-sex-bits causing heteropanic
-Barbe-babies
-New style of posting in the Music forum, which isn't popular, unfortunately.
-Celebrity Big Brother gushing
-Australian racism and perceptions of
-another "What You're Reading" thread
-and a lot of talk about Battlestar Galactica

It seems to me that the board is getting more action as of late. Some posters complained of Barb's stagnation. But it seems to be pretty fun now.

Also, sleazenation was in the Guardian. As sleaze. Amazing. Barbelith made the Guardian and the Times. How exciting!

Right now, there ain't nothing wrong with Barbelith!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:57 / 23.02.06
My reservations about Kaizer John the exploding boy were quite unfounded, weren't they readers!
 
 
Sniv
18:11 / 23.02.06
Petey, if you have beef, get to the point.
 
 
Ganesh
18:12 / 23.02.06
It's a good job you're not one to say 'I told you so".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:31 / 23.02.06
People, people. This is is something wrong with Barbelith, not is someone wrong with Barbelith? Calm. Petey, if you think there's an issue here, I'm sure that John is an instantiation rather than a sole offender. What do you object to, and what should we do about it?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:36 / 23.02.06
Besides slyly commenting about it in a completely seperate thread, rather than addressing the poster or the issue directly?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:38 / 23.02.06
"I FEEL" STATEMENTS.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:28 / 23.02.06
Okay. I feel that it generally smarts to get pulled up on posts which would seem to indicate some underlying prejudice. Getting a bit shirty under the circs is perhaps forgivable, especially when pulled up hard and sharp with a rude name or two.

However, it is infinitely preferable to letting the board slide into an environment where slightly whiffy posts go unchallenged. I believe the broken window effect has been evoked elsewhere: if you let one whiffy post slide, it becomes a mite harder to challenge the next one, and before you know it you have perfectly lovely posters leaving the board never to return because they feel that it is no longer a space in which people of their ethnicity (gender, orientation ect.) are regarded as, well, people, fellow board users with emotional responses, rather than abstract notions.

Also, once the intitial sting has worn off a bit, it behooves the stung party to simmer down a bit and have a think if the stingy people might not have had a point. It's happened to me, not so much on the Barb (tho' I have had to do a lot of re-thinking over the past 5 years) but at other times in my life.

My personal yardstick for this kind of thing is an episode from my teens where I got called on my use of a particularly nasty slang term, "flid." This was used pretty much the same way as you'd use "wimp" or maybe "klutz," to indicate physical or other forms of ineptitude. What I didn't realise was that it derived from the word Thialidomide and referred to people with physical deformities caused by the drug. I suppose I vaguely noticed people looking at me funny when I used it, or discovered that right-on types I'd previously got on well with were cooler towards me, but I didn't think anything of it until someone actually upbraided me for its use (without bothering to explain why, which is a bit crap but hey, 18). And discussing the scene afterwards with a fellow user, I came out with exactly the same arguments we see every time anyone is called on anything like that on the board: I didn't mean it like that, it was just a word, I didn't think of people like that, I wasn't prejudiced, it didn't have that meaning to me, I was only joking, ect ect, until finally I had to give up and accept that yes, I'd looked like a total wanker every time I'd used the word and had better excise it from my vocab. (All over bar the occasional tendency to curl up, bite my knuckles, and whimper "But why didn't anyone tell me?!")

Point being, we all have crap in our vocabularies, in our means of communication, and in our attitudes to the rest of the world that could do with scraping up and binning. Yeah, it hurts to be called on it, but sometimes you just have to accept the criticism gracefully. There's such a thing as realising that you're in a hole and should lay aside the shovel.
 
 
robertk
21:16 / 23.02.06
it's true that these issues have to be addressed in order to remind someone that hir statement might not have been appropriate as in "safe for all environments". but hey, there's a german saying which goes "to make an elephant out of a bug", and i'm sure there's something comparable in the english language. it means - obviously - to blow a certain matter or argument up to a point beyond all recognition.

i mean - he GOT IT! he probably got it right after jack fear's initial comment, and he definitely got it by the end of page one. where's the need for lengthy definitons and accusing somebody of "providing a masterclass in bad argument"?

and then everybody else coming in and be like "now, comeon, just admit it! admit!" if he's not going to, as he has clearly stated on page one of that thread, why keep on trying to push him? why not let it rest? is it good argument not to know when a comment is not appreciated anymore? when the argument is over? how far does it have to go?

i know i'm a new user and my opinion is not too highly valued here but when the question is "is there something wrong with barbelith" i say it is just this! making an elephant out of a bug. and it's not the first time i've been thinking this.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:18 / 23.02.06

i mean - he GOT IT!


Really? Could you quote exactly where? Thanks.
 
 
The Falcon
21:20 / 23.02.06
Can someone tell me of this 'broken window' effect, please? I have been operating on beliefs that summarise into something of an inversion of it since I began here, I think.
 
 
The Falcon
21:25 / 23.02.06
"Anglo-centric, I can see"

On page two, though.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:34 / 23.02.06
I'm sorry you don't think I'm funny. Howsabout you put me on ignore if you find me that repugnant.

Your problem, not mine.

Now, what's everyone doing here? They're not using the "I feel" statements.

I feel that this is making of this a very limited and narrow discussion.
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:38 / 23.02.06
I feel what you're saying, Haus


sorry, couldn't help it
 
 
robertk
21:51 / 23.02.06
of course you can always play it by the rules and say: "as long as he has not admitted his fault we must try to convince him."

"he got it" was partly my assumption when reading john's reactions to reactions to reactions* and partly a try at suggestion, as in "come on, maybe he did, maybe he didn't. now let's get back to those funny names." i mean, are you trying to educate him?

is he going to be a better person after having received the appropriate amount of lecture for his particular misbehaving?

he has probably followed the other discussions about this topic, and the argument itself won't be new to him. so why bother?

*for example the part on page two "Yes. yes, I would tell everyone else. I may even take out a full page ad in a national newspaper, I care about it that much.", an exaggeration prompting me to think "okay, he didn't mean any harm. let's mutually agree on settling this now."
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:04 / 23.02.06
So you feel he got it, based on your assumptions about what was secretly meant by what he was and was not saying? Including a sarky dig at Nina?

O.

K.

I feel this goes back to broken windows. Some people, I feel, are not comfortable with the level of entitlement people on Barbelith currently have to challenge what they find offensive. However, other people, I feel, are as keen to preserve that entitlement, to discourage what they see as offensive discourse. So, how do you wrangle that out? One way we've been using lately is to direct people complaining about political correctness to a single, central thread. Could that be extended?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:08 / 23.02.06
is he going to be a better person after having received the appropriate amount of lecture for his particular misbehaving?

Yes he is, we all will. I think barbelith makes us all better if we let the attitude to the importance of language and the way we treat bias here infringe into our everyday lives. Even when it seems stretched and aggressive I remind myself that barbelith has made me a person who is more aware, kinder, less biased in everday life than I was when I first joined the board. Perhaps it's because I was in my teens when I first joined, perhaps it's because I was changing a lot but I'm aware that it made me a better human being. In these threads the person who learns isn't necessarily the person who is being spoken to. The atmosphere and attitude here effects everyone who reads it. When I'm dissatisfied with barbelith I think about how much I learn about people's responses here and about the offence I could cause accidentally through a slip of the tongue outside of the board and it confirms to me that this isn't a stupid place, that these things don't go too far and that we're better people because of it. Sometimes the aggression bothers me but only when I feel it's a slip in one place. I don't think this was. I think barbelith educates me and when it lectures me I take on board what the people here are trying to tell me, even when I feel they have misinterpreted my intent.

There might be a lot wrong with this place but I don't think that's it.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:08 / 23.02.06
There seems to be a problem at the moment (Well three or four in the last couple of weeks by my reckoning) with the kind of discussion that reads like a genuinely harrowing bloodbath, rather than anything remotely edifying, or even entertaining.

It's not so much what's being discussed, in terms of 'crap language' (in the *PC* sense or otherwise, though it's the latter that's more often the problem, IMVHO ) as the unpleasantly personal tone these discussions very quickly seem to be taking, ie, that if so-and-so's AUTHORI-TAH is questioned on any given subject, and that this is done, god help us, with a measure of wit (which is after all what, you know, some of us tune in for,) so-and-so will immediately go into some form of spasm all over the board, which will then necessitate another four or five pages of explication, helpful advice, hand-wringing, increasingly exasperated rejoinders from those less well-disposed to so-and-so, and mainly, very mainly, just more about so-and-so, in any given thread. The likes of Morph, Hawksmoor and so forth were at least quite funny, IMVHO - arguably an internet message board *needs* people like those guys for things to keep ticking along, in the same way that a healthy body needs the occasional flu bug to keep it's immune systems going (11!23!) The present situation, however, seems to be a bit different. As far as I can see, Barbelith as a whole, though individual members may feel otherwise, as is their right, really has no obligation whatsoever to *educate* anyone, never mind function as a proxy counselling service for people who, while apparently bluff and hale while they're out in *meatspace,* can't seem to process the idea that being so, I don't know, depressingly solipsistic, in a (crucially) uninteresting and ill-informed way has a knock-on effect in terms of poisoning teh Barb-experience for everyone else. In this respect, I'm especially unsympathetic, bitter old crone that I am, to individuals who carry on like this within a couple of months of signing up in the first place.

And I dare say I know what I'd do about it too.

I like to read Barbelith while I'm having my evening cocoa, but lately I've been sitting there, weeping tears of blood.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:10 / 23.02.06
Including a sarky dig at Nina?

In all fairness he asked if anyone else wanted to pile in and I said sure, it's all circles and roundabouts.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:12 / 23.02.06
Barbelith as a whole, though individual members may feel otherwise, as is their right, really has no obligation whatsoever to *educate* anyone

Nonsense. The entire world needs to be educated by barbelith and we have an obligation to help it.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:25 / 23.02.06
The above, I should stress, not particularly directed at JTEB
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
23:14 / 23.02.06
I feel that while its paramount that people are pulled up on offensive discourse, dodgy assumptions, lazy thinking, and (maybe) previously unrecognised prejudices (etc), there are many ways to do it. For example, I believe that criticism and wit can also be funny, informing, and kind; that it doesn't always have to feel like a slap in the face. Of course, I'm not saying "a slap in the face" is what always happens on Barbelith, but there are occasions when a response makes me cringe just as hard as the offensive comment which preceded it.

But what do I know, right? Egos are like farts: others' seem to smell far worse than our own.

*fans arse with hand*
 
 
Saltation
00:55 / 24.02.06
quite.

analogy:
if you're trying to educate a child, you have various options.

you can guide it.

or you can smack it.

or you can scream and beat it.



all options have the same intent. all the same goal. but for the recipient, and for the crowd watching, they have different consequences and affects (not a typo).
 
 
Ganesh
06:11 / 24.02.06
Trying to educate an adult posting on a message board is rather a different situation, though. Assuming potty-training has taken place at some point.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
06:25 / 24.02.06
Mmm. I'm always a bit disturbed (and perhaps a little nauseated) when people wheel out creaky metaphors which cast Barbelith as adults and... how shall I put this... problematic posters as children in need of education and guidance. This is especially offensive when the language used also implies bullying or abuse on the part of the "adult." To imply some kind of moral equivalence between a grown adult being given a moderately hard time on an internet messageboard and the emotional and physical battering of a child by its carers is not merely a weak analogy, it's horribly offensive.

Way to minimise the suffering of abused kids, dude.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:16 / 24.02.06
Assuming potty-training has taken place at some point

My nappy-wearing is purely a comfort thing.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
08:24 / 24.02.06
Since Christmas, we've had
-Hawksmoor
-Fathers4Justice
-Barbannoy becoming a playground
-fennecs fun
-non-sex-bits causing heteropanic
-Barbe-babies
-New style of posting in the Music forum, which isn't popular, unfortunately.
-Celebrity Big Brother gushing
-Australian racism and perceptions of
-another "What You're Reading" thread
-and a lot of talk about Battlestar Galactica


I'm hurt, matt, that my "how to fight a dog" thread isn't on that list. I mean, there were objections and propositions to lock the thread twelve posts in. Controversial stuff! Good scrappin' too. Lotsa fun.

Point being, we all have crap in our vocabularies, in our means of communication, and in our attitudes to the rest of the world that could do with scraping up and binning. Yeah, it hurts to be called on it, but sometimes you just have to accept the criticism gracefully. There's such a thing as realising that you're in a hole and should lay aside the shovel.

What if you earnestly don't think you've done anything wrong, and your pride won't let you make a confession of guilt?

So I'm skimming through my anthropology textbook, right, and I come across some articles on witch hunts and I admit I made a comparison, inside my mind, between witch hunts and accusations on Barbelith of racist language, misogyny-laden speech and plain offensiveness.

A particular article detailed the witch trials of the Azande in central Africa where, even now, those convicted of sorcery or witchcraft face very severe penalties, including death. But sorcery and witchcraft are hard things to prove, even when you are using an advanced system of poisoning chickens to determine the truth, as the Azande are wont to do (or were as of 1998).

Anyway: if you are accused of racist/misogynist/offensive speech here on barbelith and feel you are innocent, do what the accused Azande youths are counseled to do these days: blow water out of your mouth onto the wing of a fowl and say "If I posses witchcraft in my belly I am unaware of it; may it cool. It is thus I blow out water", because as the Azande elders know sometimes it's not about guilt or innocence but setting things right, getting things back on track, and showing everyone you mean no ill will*.

Just some advice for the accused on how to get along.


*Although personally I like watching big messy fights. If I had it my way, all personal enmity on the board would be settled by Tekken bouts. To hell with things like evidence and sound reasoning. I want arguments to be settled with a Sun Fist to the face.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:36 / 24.02.06
Oh dear. Tuna Ghost, I know you posted with the very best of intentions, and that your point ("sometimes it's not about guilt or innocence but setting things right, getting things back on track, and showing everyone you mean no ill will") is a good one. However... witch trials?

*Waits for chorus of "OMFG yr so right this is just like TEH BURNING TIMES!!!" to begin*
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
08:42 / 24.02.06
I'm assuming that's what it feels like for some folks. Sometimes they act like they've been accused of sending a sickness to Goodie Whimper's cow, or something equally improbable.
 
  

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