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Is something wrong with Barbelith?

  
  

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Seth
00:47 / 19.09.06
Tom: I'd be interested in stats so that we could compare the traffic for each forum, in terms of posts, new topics started and numbers of topics being actively posted to.
 
 
Quantum
13:52 / 19.09.06
Me too!
 
 
Sniv
20:25 / 22.09.06
Haus - Clear the decks, move to other threads?

Okay, I think we should do this in this thread. It seems to be the ongoing 'fight thread', and I'm not really important enough to start a whole new thread just for lil' old me. If anyone feels they want this somewhere else, I'm not opposed to a move.

Firstly, I have to say I'm a little taken aback by your attitude towards me Haus. As far as I can remember, I haven't said anything nasty about you here for a good few months. I've been on my best behaviour, and I'm a little surprised at the... vehemence of some of your posts.

I think you'll find that John just pops up in threads to which he has not previously contributed and in the guise of being "supportive", has a good old bray about the meanies who don't let him call women bitches without saying meen fings sufficiently regularly for it not to be funny.

I don't mean to be facetious here, but could you perhaps link me some examples? I think I post in more threads where I'm not braying about the meanies than where I do. What do we have? we have today's OneWebDay (ha!) post, where the intent was more condescending towards PW than anyone else. He was threatening to shut the thread after one or two less than serious posts, I was (perhaps mistakenly, and I apologise PW, this was meant in good humour) trying to say "don't let the big mean kids bother you" like you would to a small child. My intent was perhaps not clear, but I assure you Haus that I wasn't (consciously) poking at you.

Right, what else do we have in recent history? we have the Racism thread. which was not attacking anyone, and was attempting to be constructive. Of course, the next post down is you with a little pop, but what the hey? Of course, there was a contentious post later on, but this was borne out of (mostly) amusemnent that this discussion was taking place at 3 am on a wednesday night and (less so) puzzled frustration that this conversation was still going on, and I had read the whole thing ("I just spent 20 minutes reading that?") I admit, the post was probably less than helpful, and I'm sorry for the digression. But still, I don't think this falls under the category of pop[ping] up in threads to which [I] ha[ve] not previously contributed and in the guise of being "supportive", ha[ving] a good old bray. Correct me if you disagree.

You mentioned in a PM to me (that I didn't answer. Apologies, I've had a pretty eventful week) Well, on the niceness front, I believe that you blotted your copybook a bit on that one during the lengthy discussions about Megatrongate, but I'd rather not go pearl-diving into that cesspit. I'm assuming you mean this post? I don't know how anyone else felt about it, but I tried my hardest to be fair, nice and as honest about my feelings as possible. And I didn't attack anyone while I was doing it. I hope this is the thread you mean, because I don't remember posting any others at around that time. In fact, I only found out about the Megs situation after a lengthy skive one morning at work, trying to catch up.

If there's another post where I've been all fighty and I've forgotten about it, please post it and we can talk about it. I'm trying to be as straight (no sex double-entendre intended) as possible here, and I hope you'll do me the benefit of the same.

I want to move on a little here, in more ways that one. Why, every time we have an altercation, must you resort to dragging up the past? We've had a PM discussion about this, and I thought we cleared it up. So what if, when I was new here, I said some really stupid shit? I was learning the ropes. I come from a very working class background, and there are probably more than a few aspects of my speech and thinking that I have picked up from spending the majority of my life on council estates with some slightly rough (but still very pleasant) people.*

Exposure to Barbelith and ideas I've never really needed to give much thought to has been changing me and my ideas. Fair enough, you might not know that, but what do I need to do, pop up in threads and go "guess what? I'm not a bigot"?. It really frustrates me when you insist on using things that I said almost a year ago to attack me with.** Things that, quite rightly, I was pulled up on. The feminism thread was partly started by one of the stupid things I said, and I read the whole thing. Yes, I was a bit too scared to post in it, but take it on board I did.

It's a frustrating situation, because you don't really know my views because I don't post in the 'heavy' fora, but I don't post in the heavy fora because of situations like this. (I alsways feel it'll go something like "what's the point of listening to him, he calls women bitches" although this is probably me being a coward as much as anything else). I also choose not to participate in many of these involved discussions because they take ages and I'm a little time-poor these days (case in point, what am I doing with my friday night? writing this).

So what do we do? You (perhaps rightly) won't give me 'credit' for having evolved my ideas because you have no proof I've changed them. I don't really think I have the intellectual dexterity, the time or frankly, the guts, to contribute meaningfully to discussions about gender/sex/race politics. But I certainly don't want to quit Barbelith either. I like it here, and I enjoy contributing to threads when I feel I have something worth adding (and sometimes not even that, but maybe that's what brought us here). So I'm going to try to change tack. Haus, I hope you can engage with the points I've raised, and even more than that, I want your advice. What can I do to fit in? What does it take to not incur your wrath (slight sarcasm, meant kindly)? I'm as honest as Abe here, I really want to be able to make this work, and it seems you're the gatekeeper. Anyone else, I'd love to hear from you too. It makes me sad that I can't get along with you, because I feel at home here, even if some of you wish I didn't.

So, I'm going to leave it at that for the moment. I'll be back tommorow most likely. Thanks for hearing me out.

*(as an aside, if you'd have heard the conversation I had to negotiate my way out of from sheer exasperation this afternoon, there'd be a whole policy thread about it, but I digress).

**Are you exactly the same person you were a year ago? Maybe it's because I'm younger, but I don't think I am. I look back on some things I wrote a year ago, and I don't know what I was thinking.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:22 / 22.09.06
John, I don't personally think it's right to quote and reply to a Private Message in a public post, unless you've asked the sender.
 
 
HCE
22:43 / 22.09.06
John, do you find that your past behavior is brought up consistently, every time you say anything and no matter what it is you're saying? I'm not terribly familiar with your posting history, so this is a genuine question and not a snide implication of any kind. I can see how it would seem frustrating to feel that it wasn't possible to redeem oneself.

I went through and read the posts in each of the links you provided and didn't see where your past behavior was brought up, so I'm not entirely clear about why you think it's behavior in the distant past that's bothering people. The replies to what you wrote in the linked posts seems to be about those posts rather than old ones, no? Did I not read far enough, perhaps?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:34 / 22.09.06
John, I don't personally think it's right to quote and reply to a Private Message in a public post, unless you've asked the sender.

Mm. I'm sure the clue's in the name somewhere.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:50 / 23.09.06
we have the Racism thread. which was not attacking anyone, and was attempting to be constructive

***

Take it on the chin, say sorry and move on, it's easier, and that way you don't have to engage flyboy any more that is strictly necessary (ie, not at all if you can help it). I think, incidentally, that this might have been the post to which I was referring in the section of my PM that you quoted, having confused my threads, but I'm not entirely sure - I didn't keep that private message, by the looks of it, but I vaguely recall sending another one correcting myself. Did I fail to do that? I would rather PM content was kept private, unless it is abusive or harassing, in general, or at least without flagging, because otherwise there's no point in the private message system, is there? It stops being a means by which people can communicate off-board and becomes a means by which the recipient can quote selectively from a text the sender may no longer have.

Hooever. On bitches, I think that the last time this was an issue was the Big Brother 2006 thread, but I'm afraid I don't have time to look through it all at present. Later, perhaps.

I may have missed the bit where Flyboy invited you to make that observation - perhaps in his birthday thread? But I think it kind of demonstrates you popping up in a thread to make a personal comment about the worth of somebody else's contribution to Barbelith. In fact, it's almost exactly what Flyboy did in Dead Megatron's birthday thread, except without the specific invitation.
 
 
Spaniel
08:37 / 23.09.06
John, I think all it takes is a bit of honesty and a degree of self-awareness to get on here, attributes which you seem to be working on. I genuinely admire your tenacity, your willingness to self-examine (not a common teenage strength, imo), and I empathise with your frustrations.
I appreciate that it's tough - when I was your age there was no way on Earth I could've handled a Barbelith, I just wouldn't have been ready for it, so it's to your credit that you're working hard at fitting in and taking criticism on board.

And that's the key thing here - taking criticism on board. It's not that people are trying to drag you down, or don't recognise your potential to grow, it's that they don't live your subjectivity and can, therefore, only judge you on what you write here. If Haus picks up on unfortunate continuities of thought then it's right and proper that he tease them to the surface. I mean, what else should he do?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
12:02 / 23.09.06
The intent was more condescending towards PW than anyone else. He was threatening to shut the thread after one or two less than serious posts, I was (perhaps mistakenly, and I apologise PW, this was meant in good humour) trying to say "don't let the big mean kids bother you" like you would to a small child.

Well given that you claim to be seventeen, John, I'm sure Paranoid Writer's still laughing hard about that now.

My intent was perhaps not clear, but I assure you Haus that I wasn't (consciously) poking at you.

Does anyone else feel there's something a bit 'Lord Of The Flies' about the tone of this somehow?
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
12:37 / 23.09.06
John, for the record: I didn't pay much attention to your patronising comment; I was more interested in the on-topic comments of yours that followed it within that post. Indeed, as Alex points out, you're a lot younger than me, so I found it all ironic.

However, that's the second time you've used childlike language when commenting on my posts (the other being "toys out of the pram"). I'm not sure if that's because these sorts of comments have been used against you in the past, by older people. But being deliberately condescending (joke or no joke) does not do anyone any favours and can influence how others might interpret one's tone in future.

From subjective experience, I find that many people can feel patronised and condescended very easily (and it's a difficult line to not cross). So it's probably better not to do so deliberately. For example, in contrast to those two posts of yours, I've been accused before (not here) of being "patronising", when in fact I've been sincerely complementing someone. Indeed, sometimes one can't avoid such accusations, especially when others are suspicious of one's motives and /or they're being defensive (and we can all be guilty of this at times, non?).

I'm also glad and admire that you try to keep assessing your own behaviour and to grow and evolve. I try to do likewise; always have, and always will, hopefully. It can be hard, eh? But as I'm sure you know, it's worth it.


Back on topic: I think xk's right, about people being battle-wary, etc. I don't think Barbelith is (e.g) dying or particularly unwell. I feel there are behaviours we might change, mainly to do with manners and "leading by example"; but I'm probably not the right person to suggest any practical steps that should be taken.

Tom, I'd also be very interested to see those stats; if that's cool (of course)?
 
 
Sniv
12:40 / 23.09.06
Good afternoon all. Just a quick flying visit to move this on a little bit -

wonderstarr - I don't personally think it's right to quote and reply to a Private Message in a public post, unless you've asked the sender.

Ooops. Seriously, that's my bad. I apologise unreservedly, Haus, that totally slipped my mind. If you wish, I will delete that part of my post. No offence was meant in using that quote.

Fred - do you find that your past behavior is brought up consistently, every time you say anything and no matter what it is you're saying?

No, I wouldn't say all of the time, certainly. I think I've made a few posts this week that haven't been intercepted by Haus, but if you want some examples of what I mean - Here, here and here (and that's just the Racism thread). And then we have the ones here and here (that last one as mentioned upthread) that got me to write this tract. Yes, it probably doesn't seem like much, but it is starting to grate some, and I wanted to sort it out. which brings me along to...

Haus - I may have missed the bit where Flyboy invited you to make that observation - perhaps in his birthday thread? But I think it kind of demonstrates you popping up in a thread to make a personal comment about the worth of somebody else's contribution to Barbelith. In fact, it's almost exactly what Flyboy did in Dead Megatron's birthday thread, except without the specific invitation.

So, this is what you're going on? My dropping into threads just to insult people and then complain when they don't worship your balls for it? Firstly, I was adressing PW, not Flyboy. From his tone earlier on in the thread, PW was expressing exasperation with flyboy. Perhaps I should have been more clear that I was saying that PW wouldn't need to engage with Flyboy more than necessary if he apologised, rather than all of us should not bother engaging with Flyboy (after all, he got me to uy my favourite album of the year, so I like him at the moment). And, seeing as we're talking about it, why am I not able to support other posters? Ones who, yes, I feel an affinity with because we've both been on the hard end of the barbelith beating stick from time to time. If you or flyboy felt this was a personal attack on fly, then why not bring it up at the time rather than letting it fester for a few weeks, or chiming in with opaque potshots?

So, if I'm clear, that post is what you're having the problems with? If that's the case, then of course I apologise to Flyboy for any offence. If you want to talk it out, you know where you can find me. I hope we can move this discussion forwards now?

And finally, less seriously -

Nonossnoy - (not a common teenage strength, imo)
+
Alex's Aunt - Well given that you claim to be seventeen

Um, I was kidding that time I said I was a teenager. I'm 23 (!!!1!1) if you must know. I can't quite remember where I said it, I think it was one of the 33 posts, but I assure you I was taking the piss.

Any way, I'll be back later on, thanks for your time, people.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:27 / 23.09.06
It's good to know that you are reading my posts enough to start using my language, John, but a potshot can't be opaque.

Perhaps I should have been more clear that I was saying that PW wouldn't need to engage with Flyboy more than necessary if he apologised, rather than all of us should not bother engaging with Flyboy (after all, he got me to uy my favourite album of the year, so I like him at the moment).

Well, if it had been what you meant, and you had expressed it clearly, we would not be having this discussion, which I think would be a win.

So, suggestion. Read what you write. See if an insult to somebody identified by the victim mentality demonstrated by these complaints about "beating sticks" and "intercepting" - for God's sake - as one of the bad guys has just crept in there - as it did above - then try removing it before you post. Then, in particular if you are posting in the Policy, it might be worth thinking about whether, once you take out the insult, there is any content to the post whatever.

And, seeing as we're talking about it, why am I not able to support other posters?

Well, I don't know why you aren't able to do it, although you do seem to be pretty bad at it. There's no reason why you shouldn't, but then I wasn't talking about you supporting other posters. I was talking about your habit of insulting people in sideswipes. You should be able to do one without the other. If you can't, then best to do neither. If you would like to reserve that right, extend it to others and stop complaining about other people making comments about the quality you add with your statements.

So, in terms of your question about what you need to do - the simple answer is probably "stop feeling like a victim, and stop thinking that feeling like a victim entitles you to be rude to or about people, and, if you are called on being rude to or about people, don't use that to feed your feelings of victimhood". If you genuinely can't understand what is or is not an insult, or are genuinely unable to express yourself clearly enough to make it possible for people to understand what is or is not intended as an insult, it might be best if you stopped talking about people on Barbelith, and instead talked about the topics under discussion. That, I think, would make the whole process a lot easier. I think it's great that you're finding ways to think about things differently using Barbelith, but Barbelith isn't for your convenience, and it may be that you have to sacrifice your freedom to say whatever you like out of consideration for the trouble you seem to have pitching things - compare the Big Brother thread SmugHet issue, where the things that you said you did to make your question less aggressive were taken by the common reader to have changed the question beyond recognition - and made it more aggressive.

So, I think that would be my advice - if you find yourself thinking "it's all right for me to say this, because I'm being kind/supportive/humorous", try not saying it and see how that goes.

That said, I'm happy to move the discussion on. Anyone want to move to another topic?
 
 
Sniv
19:50 / 25.09.06
Hello. Just back online after a weekend of no internet access, thought I'd better finish this up. I'll try to do this quick'n'simple, as I know you've had a busy day next door with pw.

So, suggestion. Read what you write.
...
in terms of your question about what you need to do - the simple answer is probably "stop feeling like a victim, and stop thinking that feeling like a victim entitles you to be rude to or about people, and, if you are called on being rude to or about people, don't use that to feed your feelings of victimhood".

Okay, here's a suggestion. If I do as you suggest, and don't display these characteristics in threads on the board, you'll let me pass without commenting on things I've said or done, been told about, apologised for and moved on from? If that's cool, then I think we have ourselves a deal my good sir.

If it's not cool, please post some kind of deal that is. Until then, I'll see you on the board.
 
 
Sniv
19:52 / 25.09.06
Of course, if I make a right fool of myself again, please feel free to take the piss as much as you want, I'd deserve it.

Oh, and I really didn't mean "let me pass" to come out so 'gate-keepery'. I mean, I hope you'll engage with me (if you want) without mentioning my sordid past. Cheers.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:34 / 25.09.06
Sounds good. Let's spit on our hands and shake.
 
 
grant
15:06 / 26.09.06
Now I'm picturing a special nozzle on the front of the brain-jar.....
 
 
Smoothly
15:10 / 26.09.06
You don't want to spit on your hand and shake that.
 
  

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