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Is something wrong with Barbelith?

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09:36 / 23.11.05

I blame that on the forum summary. It grates every time I see it. Wouldn't it sound better with the "on" removed? Or is that just me?

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:52 / 23.11.05

For me it's partly the likelihood of getting a response. With theatre, you're relying on other people in the same location having gone, which in my experience is usually not the case - something both Barbelith-friendly and big like His Dark Materials sustained discussion for a while, but more generally you may well not get a response.

Books is similar, in a way. Experientially, I've found that the books I want to talk about other people generally don't, and the books that people want to talk about I tend not to have much to say about. Also, of course, lots of books have already been discussed, and so there's no incentive for those who have been around for a while to dig those threads back up...

10:09 / 23.11.05

As has been mentioned before on Barbelith, the problem with book discussions is that books don't have the immediacy of, say, comics, films or TV. Someone recommends a book, it might take you a couple of weeks or longer to get round to buying it, and then the same amount of time to read it. Threads can be slow-burners.

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:37 / 23.11.05

Let's be honest, the biggest problem with the Film, TV & Theatre forum is the endless, endless threads about film adaptations of comics that have not yet even been MADE, let alone seen. These inevitably consist of 8 posts by people finding new and ever-wackier ways of saying "those square Hollywood suits will bastardise the bearded bard of Norhampton's magical vision, I just know it!", and 2 by FinderWolf telling us about a Wizard article about a rumour about an interview about a casting call.

Now, I don't mind a few "this film's out in a few weeks, let's anticipate it here" threads, but any fully functioning human being must recognise that things have gone TOO FAR.

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:01 / 23.11.05

Don't be unfair, dude. It's not Wizard, it's Comics2Film.

OTOH, even if people are copying and pasting rumours about comic conversions at full speed, there is a finitude of threads that can be bumped by him. I think there has to be more to the issue than that. Other people not talking enough about films they have seen? Not enough threads about film more generally?

11:33 / 23.11.05

That doesn't bother me particularly, Flyboy. My main gripe with FT&T (apart from the general pointlessness of posting about theatre, mostly for the reasons Haus has elaborated) is a feeling that I'm not into the same stuff as most people there, as whinged about in my I hate US drama thread. And that's my own problem, really.

12:53 / 23.11.05

I must say, I very rarely go into Film etc, which is a bit strange because I watch a lot of films and TV. I just don't feel like talking about it much, other than the schadenfreude to be had from discussing UK reality TV (Has anyone started a Celebrity... thread yet, BTW?)

12:54 / 23.11.05

Surprisingly, no.

13:48 / 23.11.05

... a feeling that I'm not into the same stuff as most people there, as whinged about in my I hate US drama thread. And that's my own problem, really.

You and me both, babe. We're growing out of the demographic, I fear.

It's sad to realize that not only are you no longer one of the cool kids, you're not one of the kids full fucking stop.

We're being replaced. It's a natural process. The people have spoken, and the casting directors are putting out the call for "a young Jack Fear" or "a Ganesh-type." They've revamped the franchise, redesigned the sets and the costumes, and we're reduced to being Fat Jimmy Doohan, making the occasional embarrassing guest appearance on The Next Generation for the sake of providing some sense of continuity.

Which is nice, in a way, but the main action of the narrative is being carried forward by other players, now.

It's the funny thing about a self-sustaining community: it's going to go ahead and sustain itself, and propagate itself in areas where you'd never meant it to. We've been a village, raising this child called Barbelith, and now the child is listening to strange music and speaking impenetrable slang, sneaking beers and looking at tittybooks, and we're left with a sense of loss, a vague pain in our hips, and a befuddled wondering where the hell we left our glases.

Maybe it's time to call it a day, and skip straight to selling autographs on the convention circuit.

13:53 / 23.11.05

I hope you're not suggesting quitting (calling it a day) the board. Who's going to keep the newbies in check?

By the way, I think it should be board policy to have new people read the Policy forum. It really gives us a chance to sample the mindset of the more seasoned posters, and thus make our discussion on the merits of Buffy's wardrobe in a specific episode a less ethereal discussion.

14:01 / 23.11.05

Maybe it's time to call it a day, and skip straight to selling autographs on the convention circuit.

Do sister acts still pull 'em in?

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:15 / 23.11.05

Touching and heartfelt but relevant primarily as a reflecton of mood rather than Barbelith. Tom has stated that under certain conditions he would not want Barbelith to continue. A comic book discussion forum with extra b00bs is probably one of those conditions. Ganehs not wanting to discuss "Lost" is probably not a sign that we all now have to pass into the West. The people who spent a lot of time on Barbelith finding other avenues of self-expression, or proper jobs or whatever is probably part of an inevitable evolutionary narrative. Their replacement by a lower standard of discussion is not.

All Acting Regiment

20:19 / 23.11.05

I have to say, I think one of the problems we might have is that we pick up new people off the internet. That is, though a sociology proffessor (or dentist, or youth worker, or someone otherwise interested in our scene) might well use the internet, we're not picking up "a sociology proffessor" in most cases- we're picking up a fairly random surfer who statistically is most interested in comics, most likely in a fannish way, with all the baggage that entails.

While we've certainly picked up some great folk recently, I can't help thinking it might make more sense to go and look in other places. I'm not trying to be elitist here, I just think there are whole swathes of people who would love it here who just aren't in a position where they're likely to come here by themselves.

I'm aware that the above might sound horrifically snobbish but I'm not sure how to rephrase it. Feel free to pull it apart, but surely someone else must be thinking the same thing?

21:15 / 23.11.05

I don't think that sounds particularly snobbish. I think it would be good if more people here introduced friends or acquaintances. I always imagined that happens a bit anyway, through the mysterious blogosphere I know precious little about. I just assume internet communities rub off on eachother in the same way other communities do. Saying that, I think I was expecting our latest round of admissions to bring a greater proportion of people in via endorsements from existing members (instead of the tortuous verification route) than has actually been the case, so yeah, a more concerted recruitment drive might be an idea. Not sure exactly what you mean by 'look at other places' (do you mean places other than the internet?), but in spirit I think I agree with you.

22:20 / 23.11.05

Yeah, we sure don't want them foreigners coming to our forum and taking our threads. They have funny ideas that are different than our own. They like slutty, awful, stupid things that don't matter, whereas we only like things that are cultured and good.

Seriously, has Barbelith really gotten that bad? I've only been here three or four years, but it doesn't seem to have changed dramatically in that time.

I don't see the point in being mad at the new kids just because they're different than your old friends who left.

Goodness Gracious Meme

01:17 / 24.11.05

Aware that atm I have no links for this, but I wanted to put another view in. Will come back and dig through Wayback archives if anyone's interested but it's late and I need my bed.

time was when it was noticeably less boys' locker room than most discussion forum

This is IMIO accurate, but as Haus points out, there's continuity as well as one-way slump.

*My* version of my own 'good old days' would no doubt be different, but one thing that I seem to remember finding very striking on first hanging around Barbelith (when, I think, there were considerably fewer (publicly ID'ing as) female posters than now) was the amount of boysiness/boys' club atmosphere going on.

(there was lots of good as well, but we're trying work on the dodgier aspects of our community here)

It's my impression/remembrance that there *was* casual mysogyny, *not* in a raucous 'locker room/where are the B00bs' fashion, but in a subculturally(for here) more acceptable 'quiet geek' version, where it was okay to refer to women as bitches if they didn't fancy you/make othering and unthought-out generalisations about the way 'women' - as homogenous mass - behaved, and where weirdness about women, finding women attractive, women's sexuality etc, did manifest.

The culture was changed. How?

Not saying that there isn't a serious issue here and now at all, just pointing out that it's a variant on something that has been around, and dealt with, before.

Will think and return when I can answer my own question.

All Acting Regiment

15:24 / 24.11.05

Yeah, we sure don't want them foreigners coming to our forum and taking our threads. They have funny ideas that are different than our own. They like slutty, awful, stupid things that don't matter, whereas we only like things that are cultured and good.

That's exactly the interpretation I didn't want people to take, but like I said I don't think I phrased it very well. I'm not saying that people on the internet like stupid things and people in the real world like good things. The internet is in the real world, after all.

I'm saying that the demographic by far the most likely to find us- the demographic who like to visit message boards to express their views on comics and magic- unfortunately seem, with all due respect to the notable exceptions, to lack an interest in a proper discussion with evidence, open mindedness etc, at least when writing on messageboards.

15:53 / 24.11.05

Problem is, I fear that the people who you would like to attract might have an interest in proper discussion with evidence, open mindedness etc, but not in writing on messageboards.

For instance, I know people who would find many of discussions here very interesting, and have lots of real value to contribute to them, but would never spend the requisite amount of time investing themselves in an internet community.
Point I’m making is that if you specifically try to target groups who aren’t attracted to a place like Barbelith naturally, you’re going to come up with people who aren’t naturally attracted to a place like Barbelith.

All Acting Regiment

18:59 / 24.11.05

Hmm. Fair point. I think there might be some cross-over though.

23:25 / 24.11.05

That's exactly the interpretation I didn't want people to take, but like I said I don't think I phrased it very well.

No, you phrased it well. And I can see that you're genuinely looking for new ways to improve the board.

It's just that the last few pages of this thread in particular leave a bad taste in my mouth. The whole "new posters are bringing down the quality all by themselves" theory implied by some people really bothers me.

(Of course it doesn't help that there are bastards in my neighborhood putting up posters right now trying to prevent an Asian grocery store from moving in and I cut my finger trying to rip them down on way home right before I read all this, so I was feeling especially bitter when I posted.)

08:33 / 25.11.05

For instance, I know people who would find many of discussions here very interesting, and have lots of real value to contribute to them, but would never spend the requisite amount of time investing themselves in an internet community.

I think they could be converted though. I didn't think I was a message board person when I signed up to Barbelith but then that was a few years ago with much internet time under the bridge since then. But if Barbelith (and reading blogs) hadn't opened my eyes to the wonders of the net then who's to say what my current view on such things would be? I think there are chatroom cliches that keep people away from message boards, but a short time on Barbelith could convert anyone who is interested in the issues discussed.

08:56 / 25.11.05

I think it’s true that while Legba’s suggestion requires converting people to medium, not just the message(board), Barbelith might in fact be a good way to do that.
However, short-sighted and rather 20th Century though I find it, I think there are a lot of people who would find the amount of time it takes to get the most out of Barbelith prohibitive, or at least off-putting.

14:34 / 25.11.05

I feel kind of like you all are describing people like me--i'm an academic with a fulltime job, family&friends etc.--and yet I value Barbelith, although my attendance here is definitely not consistent.

I have told a few people like me about this place. The difficulty, in my case, is that I have many real-life communities, some of which I probably do neglect in order to be here. (E.g., I "should" do more "real" writing, i.e., scholarly work.) I think there are other people with advanced degrees out there who might want a space like this, but who have no idea that it's not just about teh comix.

Tom Paine's Bones

06:34 / 27.11.05

By the way, I think it should be board policy to have new people read the Policy forum. It really gives us a chance to sample the mindset of the more seasoned posters, and thus make our discussion on the merits of Buffy's wardrobe in a specific episode a less ethereal discussion.

While I agree with the sentiment, on a practical level, I'm not sure that much can be done if a specific subgroup of posters is, for example, only coming into read and post in the Comics forum and not really going elsewhere much.

In the same way as I'd personally like a policy of hitting anybody who hasn't at least skimmed the Wiki before they started posting repeatedly in the face with a halfbrick. But I've come to the conclusions it's regrettably unenforcable.

As a more general idea, I'm not sure where it would go, but might it be worth starting a thread for people who want constructive criticism on their posting styles? I'm aware that some people who should read it won't. But to take myself as an example, I know I overuse brackets and that my sentences can be a bit overlong and clunky. I'm just not sure how to fix that. And other posters may be in a similar position.

All Acting Regiment

14:56 / 27.11.05

As a more general idea, I'm not sure where it would go, but might it be worth starting a thread for people who want constructive criticism on their posting styles? I'm aware that some people who should read it won't. But to take myself as an example, I know I overuse brackets and that my sentences can be a bit overlong and clunky. I'm just not sure how to fix that. And other posters may be in a similar position.

I think that wolud be a great idea if we can make sure it doesn't devolve into personal arguments. Which I'm sure is possible, but it'll require a bit of careful thought.

16:12 / 27.11.05

Thing is, who's to judge?

We've already got threads on grammar and phrasing. We've got threads for critiquing creative writing. The idea of a thread to teach a correct posting style for Barbelith fills me with horror, to be honest. I mean, that sounds like a cruel Barbelith satire to me.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

16:21 / 27.11.05

Or alternatively, why don't we just stop pretending to justify having huge flaming rows with one another?

19:28 / 27.11.05

I have to say, I think one of the problems we might have is that we pick up new people off the internet. That is, though a sociology proffessor (or dentist, or youth worker, or someone otherwise interested in our scene) might well use the internet, we're not picking up "a sociology proffessor" in most cases- we're picking up a fairly random surfer who statistically is most interested in comics, most likely in a fannish way, with all the baggage that entails.

I think you're right. Here's my account of how I came to be a member, because it exemplifies your point.

I'm new here, though only posting-wise. The first time I found Barbelith, I was searching Google Images for a picture of Devon Aoki from Sin City. I found a good picture and was taken to a page discussing the movie. The colors and style of the forum were so far from normal message boards that I had to check the rest of the forum out. I was very impressed by the quality of the posts that I found, so I hung around. It's taken me about a year or so to apply for registration.

So yes, I think statistically Barbelith is going to attract more people who are interested in comics then other things. I am not however, the type of comic fanboy carrying excess baggage that you are worried about. So it is possible that you can get members drawn by the comic discussion but who stay for the forum as a whole. Or at least that is my case.

20:36 / 27.11.05

Barbelith: come for the girlie pictures, stay for the color scheme.

02:31 / 28.11.05

I think posters do have a tendancy to criticize posting grammar, etc. There's ton of cases when somebody overuses the Caps Lock and then somebody responds with a stinging, witty, catty insult about said overuse. From lurking for a long time, I figured out I couldn't do that. Even though as an Arts Degree kid, I'm inclined to use full sentence construction when online, MSN Messenger included. As well, I capitalize most of the time. I want to avoid the snarky comment about my posting aesthetics.

So instead of a forum for "constructive" criticism, maybe just polite PMs about Caps Lock, etc. I stress "polite". I think a thread for constructive criticism will ultimately derail into an argument between X and Y over the use of an apostrophe.

(By the way, I didn't come for the girlie pics. I came for the frightened turtle-cock pics. O why did I click?)

ONLY NICE THINGS

07:36 / 28.11.05

There's ton of cases when somebody overuses the Caps Lock and then somebody responds with a stinging, witty, catty insult about said overuse.

I think this actually happens less often than is perceived. Caps lock is commented on, because it makes the thread generally look uglier, but poor spelling and grammar, given how many barking pedants there are on Barbelith, get a pretty easy ride.

Tom Paine's Bones

19:24 / 28.11.05

I think that wolud be a great idea if we can make sure it doesn't devolve into personal arguments. Which I'm sure is possible, but it'll require a bit of careful thought.

Having thought about it a bit more carefully, I think the best way to avoid that would be to make it a totally voluntary exercise. For the reasons people have outlined, I think not doing it like that would run too high a risk of kicking off.

We've already got threads on grammar and phrasing. We've got threads for critiquing creative writing. The idea of a thread to teach a correct posting style for Barbelith fills me with horror, to be honest. I mean, that sounds like a cruel Barbelith satire to me.

It's not about teaching a correct posting style. Apart from anything else, there obviously isn't a specific posting style that's correct, anymore then there's a specific way of doing creative writing. But I think that the skills needed to put across an argument are quite different then the ones needed for creative writing. And if it's possible to critique one constructively, surely that's true of the other?

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:10 / 29.11.05

Caps lock is commented on, because it makes the thread generally look uglier, but poor spelling and grammar, given how many barking pedants there are on Barbelith, get a pretty easy ride.

as for people who can't be bothered to ever use the caps lock, and refuse to use paragraphs.
well.
they're positively encouraged.
strange that.

some might say it had gone on far enough.
and should be made to stop.
it seems to me such people would be right.
just my opinion.

11:20 / 29.11.05

well.
that was...
veiled.

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:35 / 29.11.05

i thought maybe i'd try it for a bit.
you know.
to see what it's like.

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