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Underground > Policy & Help >

Is something wrong with Barbelith?

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12:57 / 04.11.05

Well, I was taking a look at this, and to be honest I can't see much difference between me writing a script and somebody else using either a web-based or software-based RSS reader.

I mean, all I'd be doing would be checking this particular RSS feed. That should show you every new post in Barbelith. Anyone using Firefox, Opera, Safari, anything except IE can subscribe to that as an feed/live bookmark/whatever and have it automatically check and show you what the latest thread posted to was. Or you could use something like Bloglines and get a popup window or have a notifier in your systray. This should be fine for anything except a really fast-moving discussion.

What a third party program won't do - well, excepting using something like Greasemonkey, or a proxy server program, neither of which I'm going to use I'm afraid, for reasons of time and/or bandwidth on my own site - is provide you with a link at the top of the Barbelith page which updates you whenever you load pages. Sorry. That would have to be put in the code. It wouldn't be hard, but I can't modify the Barbelith code for obvious reasons.

Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns

13:33 / 04.11.05

Nice one Fridge, didn't realise that was possible. Great.
Be ace if it could be put in the code though, anyway of doing it without causing Tom to many problems?

13:37 / 04.11.05

I can't change the code for Tom, and he's said there aren't going to be any changes from his end, so no.

Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns

13:41 / 04.11.05

Never mind. Nice one though.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:26 / 04.11.05

Anyone using Firefox, Opera, Safari, anything except IE can subscribe to that as an feed/live bookmark/whatever and have it automatically check and show you what the latest thread posted to was.

Considering most people can't even be arsed to check on the forum (and, if they're anything like me, don'e even know or particularly care what RSS is) it would probably only be used by people who bother checking the stuff in the first place anyway, who wouldn't need to use it. If you see what I mean.

15:36 / 04.11.05

I dunno Stoatie. One click to see all the new threads in all the forums is pretty handy.

(By the way, that’s all those feeds can do, isn’t it, fridge – show you new threads (not what the latest thread posted to is)? Or am I underexploiting them?)

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:50 / 04.11.05

Oh yeah, one click would be cool- but who's gonna be arsed actually setting up their browser to do that, except the people who check the stuff anyway? Sure, it'll make it handier for those who do, which can only be a good thing, but will it actually solve the problem of people not reading relevant stuff?

(Apologies if I'm fundamentally misunderstanding what you're talking about... I'm a total retard when it comes to technological stuff. I'm still impressed by the fact that my small typewriter can make words appear on the telly. It gets me every time).

15:54 / 04.11.05

I think the last time we hashed over "should we be able to see all the recently updated threads?" the upshot was that it wouldn't contribute as much to conversation as it should. Selectively displaying a single forum's updates would underline its relative importance.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

16:08 / 04.11.05

And as I recall, back when we could, most of the people who probably would have benefited from reading the Policy didn't anyway. (I still like the idea, purely because my connection is so slow it can take a couple of minutes just to look at a forum and find there's nothing new there, but I understand I'm behind the times- I just don't think any success or otherwise of such an idea would really have much impact on the question of "What's wrong with Barbelith").

18:47 / 04.11.05

Smoothly: the link I posted should show you all threads recently posted to. You can also get it to show only entirely new threads, or new posts in one or more forums only.

I think the last time we hashed over "should we be able to see all the recently updated threads?" the upshot was that it wouldn't contribute as much to conversation as it should.

Well, I think the general upshot was more that it wasn't going to happen because it would involve modifying the board. There was disagreement as to its value. I would certainly like to see it built in.

19:51 / 04.11.05

Actually, I'd kind of like it myself (but not enough that I've ever bothered figuring out the RSS feed).

That still wouldn't drive more eyes to the P&H forum, though.

15:30 / 11.11.05

OK, it's been about a week, and I still can't get past the idea that part of what's wrong with Barbelith is the sentiment expressed in this post here -- that the Policy & Help forum is somehow not in the public eye. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with it, because I *always* read this area but I realize what interests me rarely interests everybody.

I'm wondering, too, if this perception (or invisibility) of the P&H might be responsible for discussions derailing themselves into discussions about ways of discussing rather than whatever the discussion is about. Like this thread over in Music, which reminded me of the stuff that got me all cranky in the middle of the Psychology of Trolling thread before it started to be all about trolling again. I don't know. Maybe this constant return to conversational basics in mid-topic (hey! we don't like lists without explanations in Music!) is a necessary annoyance, like the way I have to keep retying my shoes because the laces are worn and slippery. But I really should just buy a new pair of laces.

16:04 / 11.11.05

or velcro.
velcro is good.

why dont folks care about the policy?
is it image? something we can fix through advertising the benefits of checking the forum?
is it just a variation on 'voter apathy'?

would PMing people about threads we feel are relevant to them make a difference? perhaps doing that for a while could raise the profile of the forum.
or we could mnaybe PM everyone on the board(i dont know how this would be done) once or twice, letting them know its here. spamming for the cause, sorta.

the problem is that if people cant be bothered with it, i dont know how to make them.
well, short of making a thread about them specifically.that seems to focus the attention.

16:35 / 11.11.05

FWIW: In the past I shied away from Policy simply because, in my ignorance, I thought that I wouldn't be able to keep up with or have anything useful to add to discussions. My perception at the time was that it was a space for the Elders and (I assumed) not welcoming to newbies. I'm over it now, and maybe some other members need similar leeway to gain confidence.

I think toksik may be on to something when he mentions voter apathy. Maybe an re-imaging of Policy is in order, though I'm hard pressed to make a suggestion on how that might be done. A 'Today in Policy' PM spam sounds like a step in the right direction. Is that possible?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

17:57 / 11.11.05

It's a shame because I really like the Policy. It's one of the fora I come to most often--my first 3 places when I hit the Barb of a morning go: Temple, Policy, Convo. It's interesting to read old threads and look at how the board has evolved.

Tom Paine's Bones

20:27 / 11.11.05

My perception at the time was that it was a space for the Elders and (I assumed) not welcoming to newbies.

On top of that, it's always going to be difficult to tell how many newbies are like me and mostly just lurk on policy. Generally speaking, I'm happier just watching how policy discussions are developing, because I don't feel like there's anything I need to add.

23:46 / 11.11.05

Several lurkers I know frequent the policy, probably more than posters do.

"Temple, Policy, Convo"
(Mordant)

See, I go Temple Headshop Policy Convo, then maybe Comics if I'm feeling masochistic. Is there an old thread on forum habits?

02:35 / 12.11.05

If not, make one. I feel we could do with knowing what people are getting out of this place.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

07:35 / 12.11.05

I go Convo, Policy, Switchboard, then it depends where there have been threads I'm following.
A forum habits thread would be kind of useful- probably best to start it in the Convo, though, otherwise people who dodn't read Policy won't see it or contribute.

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:05 / 22.11.05

I just... despair, really.

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:07 / 22.11.05

You know, I think a critical mass has been reached. A critical mass of inane simpletons whose ideal board would basically be an interactive version of Bizarre magazine: conspiracies AND boobies! Woah!

09:54 / 22.11.05

What do you propose to do about it, then?

09:59 / 22.11.05

A separate forum for each? Keep conspiracies and boobies separate, I say.

10:00 / 22.11.05

Or a separate forum for Flyboy?

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:08 / 22.11.05

Well, yeah, I should probably shut up and go elsewhere. Critical mass is really the one thing you can never fight and win. I should probably accept that most of the people who I enjoyed reading and interacting with here have either left or now post very infrequently, and when they do post, those people stick out like a sore thumb. The demographic of Barbelith has changed significantly, I think - time was when it was noticeably less boys' locker room than most discussion forum, but now the list of people who don't post here anymore is noticeably female.

10:20 / 22.11.05

Well, shutting up and/or going elsewhere would be options, but by no means the only ones available to you. I'm broadly sympathetic to most if not all of what you say regarding the changing/changed demographic, but I'm not sure that periodically denouncing people as "simpletons" helps things along, particularly. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm not sure how much of the 'Barbelith is dying' perception harks back to an essentially mythical (or semi-mythical) Golden Age which varies from poster to poster, and how much accurately/objectively reflects the present situation. I'd agree that the locker-room thing is fairly new, though. Are you suggesting that it might be a reason for the mostly-female posters you miss to avoid the place? If so, how do you think it should be addressed?

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:42 / 22.11.05

Well, I can certainly sympathise with Flybs on this one - but there have always been inane simpletons on Barbelith. They come and they go, some get smarter and others stay stupid. The problem with the critical mass idea is that actually only about three people have to share an interest and a method to make it feel like that critical mass has been reached. Certainly, I am bewildered at times by people who appear not to have any sense of how far below the par set by others in a given thread their contributions are, but then they may be thinking that of me.

One answer is to let more people in, and hope that the greater churn throws up people who are positive contributors and stick around. Either that, or introduce ostracisms.

On the other hand, from my so far brief look at the applicants to Barbelith, I'm sort of tempted to push for an embargo on any applicant using the words "Magick", "chaote" or "Morrison". Not that any of theose ar bad words... we're just near capacity.

OMG B00Bs

10:48 / 22.11.05

From what little blog-surfing I've done, it seems Barbelith's known partly for the quality of its comics (yes, really) and magic-related forums. This perhaps reflects the relative dearth of good-quality comics or magic discussion boards elsewhere on the Internet, but perhaps we ought to accept that a sizeable proportion of those coming here will be attracted by those parts of the board rather than, say, the Head Shop or Switchboard.

11:06 / 22.11.05

I don't mind for what reason people come here, but I am sometimes astounded at the ways in which they blunder into the more serious fora, clearly demonstrating that they haven't taken five minutes to familiarise themselves with the style and level of debate expected. An increase in maturity and board etiquette on behalf of newbies would almost be more welcome than a handful of brilliant new posters.

11:10 / 22.11.05

Mmm. I'm slightly surprised when they appear in the more 'serious' discussions, prefacing their post with, "I haven't read the whole thread, but..."

Our Lady Has Left the Building

13:36 / 22.11.05

I would suggest Flyboy takes some time off from the board. And maybe some kidney massaging.

02:50 / 23.11.05

I haven't read the whole thread but... no, just kidding. I have read the entire thread. In fact, I posted a little some time ago.

Haus, Flyboy, Ganesh, etc, is the quality of the new people that bad? Are we disrupting the evolution of the board somehow? As I've said earlier, give us some time to learn.

Take me for example. After posting a "oh please take pity on us newbies," I went and made two threads which were "attacked" (for lack of better word) for being predicated on (maybe) dangerous assumptions. That didn't stop me, though. I tried to learn from my mistakes (in posting and in philosophy) and evolve into a better poster of 'lith. I'm trying my best here. I can't make that claim for everybody, but I am seriously trying my absolute best at being articulate, thoughtful, insightful, and interesting. Sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes it does. But I'm learning, and that's the most I can say.

On a slightly different but still related topic, is the Books thread dying? It's the thread I generally check the most often because I'm more interested in books than gaming (which I never post on - I plead ignorance) and sometimes an entire day will go by without any activity. In comparison, the Comics thread can't go an hour without a post. Is there a reason for this? A sociological reason that should be investigated in HeadShop (ie, are people reading less books now than thirty years ago)? Or is this just a fallow season for literature?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

08:58 / 23.11.05

Books, like Art, has tended towards being one of the quieter forums, the recent busyness being atypical.

I don't think that the recent joinees have been especially 'bad', any more than historically there have always been people on Barbelith that various people don't get on with, Barbelith is such a broad church this is bound to happen.

09:11 / 23.11.05

I think there's an issue bound up with talking about books that is at play in the forum and we've never quite got beyond it, though there have been attempts to discuss the issue, one started by the inestimable Flowers as I recall.

*goes off to search*

Here we go. You might like to check out these two old threads matt and see what you think. I wouldn't dare to bump them without comment because that would be very very wrong.

Why Don't We Talk About Books?

Ways to Talk About What You Read.

09:32 / 23.11.05

Theatre's even worse. For some reason, even those of us who go don't tend to discuss it here.

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