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Is something wrong with Barbelith?

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20:46 / 29.10.05

I understand that we might aspire for Barbelith to have higher standards of intellectual conversation than the norm but I hope we can retain a sense of humour. Shared jokes and references to group totems are inescapable features of any group or community. Yes, we overdo it. It's in the nature of the beast.

I am not of the school that thinks presenting a miserable façade necessarily lends one gravitas or credibility. I guess that's why I spend most of my time talking nonsense in The Conversation. Barbelith clearly meets some emotional needs for me, as well as stimulating me intellectually.

21:17 / 29.10.05

Some of the in-jokes can be a bit... well... shite, though.

I mean, ass-candling. Ha fucking ha. And joycore went on for several million posts too long.

21:25 / 29.10.05

Mmm. The ninjas/pirates thing leaves me cold, too.

Personal preference, I guess.

21:37 / 29.10.05

Yeah, agreed. But we're hoary old fuckers who've been around long enough to have seen both so many, many times. Somebody will come up with something new. It might take us a while to tire of it and move on but that we will, eventually. I tired of Joycore in ten minutes and it went on for months.

There is comparatively little repetition on the Lith, compared to just about every other board I see. It's mercifully free of the irksome animated avatars, the endless bloody signatures, the bloody introductions threads.

But you're entitled to be irritated by the in-jokes. I think the root of that irritation could be a fruitful subject for discussion too. There is not enough intelligent discussion of, dissection of, and exploration of psychological and emotional health on the board, IMO.

03:20 / 30.10.05

RE Tom's comments.

(I'm doing the unthinkable: disagreeing with Tom....)

Please don't change the look. I like how Barb looks. S/he's so different than any other board (which looks awful, very "computer" circa 1995). I like how each area has its own colour scheme. It's unique and simple.

Changing the domain? I have to disagree here. I think the obscureness(a word?) of the domain and the subject makes the board much more appealing. Sure, I could have signed up for Aintitcool's Talkbacks, where I could say, "Kevin Smith is so gay. He's a sellout", but that's not interesting. I found Barbeltih because of Grant (the big "g") and the general "esoteric-ness" of the whole place. Where else am I going to (sort of) get away with talking about Tacitus? Or where else am I going to post a story and get some real constructive criticism, and help to improve?

Barbelith. I mean, say the word aloud. Doesn't it feel different? Special? What would we ever change the name to? Collective-of-witty-sassy-intellectuals.com Come on. We owe the genesis of Barb to Grant (and to Tom) and I think we should pay homage to him in name (only).

So while my post does nothing to answer the question of "Is something wrong with Barbelith?", I think the "problem" with Barbelith rests not in its name, its look, nor its senior members (who I complained about).

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:48 / 30.10.05

Where else am I going to (sort of) get away with talking about Tacitus? Or where else am I going to post a story and get some real constructive criticism, and help to improve?

Yeah, but what does Barbelith mean in relation to that? Not a lot, really.

12:43 / 30.10.05

changing the domain means moving it away from Barbelith. It means The aim of Barbelith is to create an online space where the standard of conversation, discussion and debate is higher than anywhere else online. So all those things I mentioned mean that. Higher than anywhere else online. I equate the word Barb with higher standards, and intellectualism (from the fact I found this board through Grant)

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:49 / 30.10.05

Dude, it's a reference to a comic book. That has nothing to do with higher standards or intellectualism - it's just a reference to a comic book.

14:21 / 30.10.05

is this a bit like a "the flag i fought under,and that my father died for" sorta thing?
perhaps the use has imbued the name with value for some folks?

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:34 / 30.10.05

Oh, I think nostalgia is a perfectly good argument for keeping the name, as is familiarity. I just don't see any argument for Barbelith (the word) specifically representing the values Tom Coates ascribes to Barbelith (the board).

*

16:30 / 30.10.05

Well, my vote's for nostalgia, then. I like Barbelith, and I'd have a much easier time figuring out what to call other Barbelithnianeroids if it were changed to something like— oh, the Tea and Crumpets Board (Crumpetheads?), and that would ruin half my fun.

16:43 / 30.10.05

Well, if there is a name change, then how about Barberlin? It sounds similar, is short and catchy, and is easy to remember.

Keith, like a scientist

17:08 / 30.10.05

changing the name?

i'm sorry, but what does that have to do with discouraging trolls, insults, racism, sexism, piratism?

that doesn't seem to address the "problems" of Barbelith that were mentioned very early in this thread...negativism pervading the conversations across the board. whether it is "old-timers" being quick to chastise newer posters, or the antagonism from some wayward posters, changing the name wouldn't do much to improve the forum.

i've been following this thread, but not contributing, because i couldn't quite understand the dynamics of what was going on. but one observation i have is that the original premise seemed to be 'fixing' Barbelith internally and dealing with some culture issues that manifest themselves in an all around negative tone lately. but it quickly evolved into the blaming of outside influences (trolls, newbies, etc.).

this seems to be the opposite of the intent. the question "is something wrong with Barbelith?" suggests that there is an internal sickness brought on by internal stresses. the question isn't "how to combat Barbelith invaders?"

I don't have an answer, but I generally think a touch more patience and understanding would go a long way to Barbelith becoming healthier.

17:26 / 30.10.05

the question "is something wrong with Barbelith?" suggests that there is an internal sickness brought on by internal stresses.

No it doesn't - at least, not in my head now or at the time I asked the question. It was intended as an entirely open question, without the leading suggestion of "internal sickness" or otherwise (I'm not sure the internal/external dichotomy's particularly useful here). I wanted people to answer it in any way they felt relevant.

22:05 / 30.10.05

This isn't so much a "what's wrong with Barbelith" post, but I think that perhaps it's related, and it's inspired by Tom's suggestion about organizing more "topical" meets a page back.

I'm not sure how to put this, but I think that the older posters and specifically the London 'lithers need to be aware of how their meatspace relationships spill over into the board. I think it's probably a basic human tendency to feel more familiar, and thus be more casual with, those individuals you've at very least met in person. I think that the way that this manifests on the board is that conversations between those who haven't met seem a bit more impersonal.

I think that this causes some problems with integrating new members (and some of us older members) in such a way that they want to stick around.

So, confession time, I guess.

I joined Barbelith for the first time back in '99 or so, I can't remember exactly. I posted a lot for a while, then ended up going on the road (and being without net access) for a bit over a year. When I got back, I posted a few times here and there but didn't have much time to devote to the board.

So, fairly recently, I started posting again regularly. The thing is, it kind of feels like walking into a bar you used to frequent and seeing lots of familiar faces... but nobody says hello.

Anyway, this post wasn't really intended to be about me. What I think I'm trying to point out is: A society is defined not only by the relationships of its members to the society as a whole, but also the relationships between individuals within the society. Those individual relationships that bind a society together are harder to form when all the discourse is public, and there isn't an online equivalent to sitting together over a beer shooting the bull.

*

22:41 / 30.10.05

Yeah, it is a sort of lonely feeling to realize that the only Barbelither I've actually seen in person, was grant that one time at a wedding, and I didn't find out about it until after the fact. It would be great if I could fix that now that I live in an area where there are more of us slightly. (Although in doing so I've further impoverished the state of Florida of Barbelithers by one. Which works out to about 33.3%, I think.)

00:57 / 31.10.05

State traitor.

09:41 / 01.11.05

I really, really liked Tom's post. Made me remember what I felt like when I first came here all excited, before I became the jaded old curmudgeon I feel like now.

Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns

16:08 / 03.11.05

I know this has been mentioned previously up thread, but I'm really starting to feel that the relatively slow traffic on the board at present is a major problem. Things to me feel a little stale to say the least, almost an air of Groundhog day about the place! I do obviously count myself a part of the problem with regards to slow traffic.
How possible is it to do a mass mailout to the 5000+ alleged members in an attempt to draw them back on the posting front. Not sure what could be expressed in the communication, but it 'may' be an effective way of welcoming back some oldies & encouraging the newbies to get cracking!
I think someone also mentioned that encouraging mods to post an amount of new topics in their forums, on a realtively regular basis, was a good idea. Not sure whether this is a good or bad idea in the name of keeping up the quality, but it's gotta be worth a shot.

Sorry bit hung over, so rambling/mumbling occuring!

All Acting Regiment

16:25 / 03.11.05

About the name. In the comics, Barbelith was something that helped people out, and generally was a force for freedom, intellectual and general, yeah? So I think the name does in fact relate to Tom's idea of what the place should be.

What else could we call it? Seriously? Should we start a thread on that?

17:24 / 03.11.05

Certain boards, it's true - do seem to be more quiet than I've seen them for a while. Head Shop in particular has seemed over the last few months to be going through more than its fair share of lulls. I blame the fact that the people who were on the board who were at university are now old farts with jobs.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

17:51 / 03.11.05

I know this sounds trite, but I think one of the main things that is wrong with Barbelith is that people don't read the Policy. Personally, it's one of my favourite fora, but that's neither here nor there- the amount of shit that happens on Barbelith which could be either avoided or neatly sidestepped if more people read the Policy is, well, not humungous, exactly, but big enough that it would make a lot of difference...

To me, at any rate, Barbelith suffers from problems any society or community does- and, as in the case of any society or community, the only way to actually address these is for the members of that group to look at what they're doing, discuss it and figure out a solution.

Unlike many societies and communities, though, Barbelith actually has a place primarily designed for people to do that- yet it's not that many posters who take the opportunity to actually use it.

A lot of the problems we get seem to be analogous to people who whine and whine about what's wrong with their society, but don't actually bother to vote or otherwise try to engage in the society itself.

I really can't think of a way to solve that... but it does seem to me to be an answer to the topic question.

18:04 / 03.11.05

I think that's related to my feelings re: wiki. It's the same thing -- getting people involved enough to actually learn how things work (and how they're supposed to work).

I suspect there's some way to make either P&H or the FAQ more tasty, but I'm not exactly sure what that is.

Hmm.

I wonder if... unlike the other fora, if there was a way to broadcast updates/new posts/recent changes to P&H/the FAQ in a little box on the main page. Like a ticker.

Would that make people curious enough to click over here? Signify that this was more important/newsworthy than the rest of the board?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

18:12 / 03.11.05

Joke answer- tell 'em this is where the best arguments happen.

Real answer- still thinking about that one.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

18:14 / 03.11.05

(I do have a better response to that about the difference in reading between P&H and the wiki, but I haven't quite got it into sensible words yet.)

18:40 / 03.11.05

I wonder if... unlike the other fora, if there was a way to broadcast updates/new posts/recent changes to P&H/the FAQ in a little box on the main page. Like a ticker.

But why stop with just those two? Its something that's been raised once or twice before, but that's kinda like the idea of once again having a main page that registers activity across the site. I think that might be pretty key factor, both in the perceived slowness and in the comments about newbies being unaware of a ‘barbelith culture’.

19:11 / 03.11.05

But haven't we been told that there will be no new code?

19:27 / 03.11.05

Yes. Yes, we have. Was thinking around the “Is something wrong with barbelith?” thing anyway.

And anyway, no new code, but are there other sites that you guys use a lot that we could simply integrate? - I don’t really understand that bit, tbph. Integrate how?

19:38 / 03.11.05

No new code: I think the RSS feed that already exists could be hammered into something quick & easy-like. Just a hypothesis.

Integration: I'd assume by mutual linking & maybe some shared design elements.

19:55 / 03.11.05

I think the RSS feed that already exists could be hammered into something quick & easy-like. Just a hypothesis.

Yeah, and I’d kinda see the main worth of either grant’s ticker or my Main Page thing as being in having something that's set up so *all* users of barbelith see/use it, rather than just the ones who know what RSS means and how it works.

Also, just noticed that Tom has recently said, here, Any processes you guys want to build around Barbelith, or supplementary systems that you want to develop around the site will have my support if the community gets use from them. Any processes you guys really want to implement will have my support if they're sustainable and if you have thought about what would happen if a core person left or something.

So, I just don’t know: is there any way of building either of these things as a ‘supplementary system’ in such a way that doesn’t involve any Tom-bothering?

21:15 / 03.11.05

I can do stuff with RSS feeds. I can write code that will transform them in various different ways to be more useful to people.

It would be SO much easier with deeper access, of course. I'm offering my PHP skills up yet again here.

22:56 / 03.11.05

In the name of God, do it!

But seriously, I am backing that to the very hilt; I have a serious monomania problem with teh internets and comic sites, and it is not good for me, so bring it fridge.

23:31 / 03.11.05

If we can tack something like that on - even to the extent that the Google site search is tacked on - then I'm all for it. I've only recently started subscribing to the Barbelith RSS feeds and I've often discovered interesting threads that would otherwise have passed me by.
In fact I wonder if some of the anxieties about the loss of the forum headlines in the last redesign are now being proved justified. Maybe some parts of the board are suffering a lack of passing traffic.

Haus of Mystery

02:18 / 04.11.05

I..Uhhh. Mmmm.

08:35 / 04.11.05

McGyver, if your point is that passing traffic often has little of value to contribute, then it’s both fair and well made.

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