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Sniv
17:02 / 22.10.05
Haus - I take it we're talking about the mutants/minorities thread, right? Fair enough, I could have clarified more, and have done at length since, and I understand fully that it was my miscommunication that cause that argument. But my "you know what I meant" comment was a rather jokey aside to Quimper's I can't wait for those blacks and gays to finally become normal! which is just as jokey as my reply. If somebody had taken serious umbridge with that and wanted a discussion into the level of acceptance of gaypeople and non-white people into our society, I would willingly have written an essay on it.

I do agree though that the wording or my original statement could be misleading, and have apologised. I do not have the level of ego where I think I'm always right, and I'm more than happy to drop a subject if we're going round in circles.

As for the 'Harmony House' crack - I defend that. Not only was it a)geeky, b)witty and c)relevant, I was criticising the level of conformity of ideas (and even language) that one needs to be able post on some of the threads in here. Doesn't mean I don't like it here, mind. It's just... the continuity can be a bit of a headfuck to learn.

I do think a thread that links to these '101' topics I've heard about would be handy for newcomers. At least then we can get a firm handle on what it is Barbelith considers racism, feminism and sexuality-issues to be, so we don't go sticking our foots in our mouths when we want to make it known that we don't hold any concsious ill-feeling towards these groups.
 
 
*
17:30 / 22.10.05
See, the thing is, and what people have been trying to tell you, is that there's not a lot you have to conform to, so long as you're prepared to defend your position in an intellectual manner and without getting all whiney. And even if you do, people will probably either challenge you about it or tease you about it, depending on what the content is. It's not like you'll get thrown off the board for having a difference of opinion. RobertRosen believes in intelligent design and believes that Christian values should be taught in schools, and he might have felt a bit hounded with the vehemence of people's differing opinions, and I got a bit mean to him based on a misunderstanding, but there's been a lot of interesting discussion around that and I'm glad he's here. But you know, the consequence of having a different opinion here is that other people communicate their disagreement with you. That's not fascism and it's certainly not enforced conformity, although it might feel like that if what you really want is to be in an environment where people agree with you all the time.

Look, I like Neil Gaiman for crissakes, and I thought Mirrormask was a gorgeous movie and I still think that even after I saw it again the other night. And I can't defend my position, and I got whiney about that fact in some thread that is a million years dead. Nobody's thrown me off the board yet, even though I made the self-same mistake of asserting that the people who disagreed with me were just being mean about it because they were LOOOSERS, and then claiming that assertion was a joke. Not my proudest moment, but look, here I am, not even tied up and gagged in the corner or anything.

Which is to say that I empathize, and it won't always feel this raw. Have less attachment to your ideas. They're not you, they're just stuff that comes out of your keyboard.
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:10 / 22.10.05
How about setting up a mod team to deal with these issues, say one mod from each forum coming together to cast there judgement on individual circumstances.

Similar to the thread idea, taking into account that the people involved in the thread and attending to the complaints are from across the whole of barbelith. Also showing that in each forum there is one individual to be contacted about issues, but that the forum as a whole has to attend to the issues involved.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:39 / 22.10.05
one mod from each forum coming together to cast there judgement on individual circumstances

I can see your point, but I think that would be flying in the face of the whole "distributed moderation" system.
 
 
w1rebaby
23:06 / 22.10.05
Which issues, specifically?
 
 
matthew.
04:26 / 23.10.05
I have a question.

Now, before I ask it, I'm going to give some background information on myself, okay?

I've been on this board for about a year, maybe more (I can't remember, and I can't remember if I can figure it out). I usually keep to the pop-culture stuff (like comics, books, movies, television) because I'm frightened of posting on something heavy.

I'm somewhat intelligent. I'm somewhat learned. I'm somewhat well-read. I've been in university for four years and I've learned so much, so many new skills, and so many random facts.

And now the relevant background information. In my posting on Barb for over a year, I've found myself and many others being somewhat insulted by a good number of the old posters, whether it be in the passive aggressive sense, or overtly. I understand very explicitly that the older posters have an unsaid right to based on tenure, but... sometimes their postings leave one with a bruise on their psyche.

My question is thus: if Barbelith has no explicit core values (other than anti-racism, anti-sexism, and anti-misogyny) and if Barbelith is really for the open discussion of ideas (other than the aforementioned obvious) why do a lot of the posters tell people to find a more suitable messageboard?

I followed the hiccups and Kaizer controversies somewhat belatedly, and I found them to be somewhat... well... mean. Please bear in mind, I am making no statement on their opinions. I do not defend nor attack them in any way.

My problem with Barbelith seems to require an analogy here. This place sometimes feels like a bunch of liberals preaching open discussion, but then asking conservatives to leave the room.

If you don't want open discussion (on areas other than the big issues we all mostly agree on, like homophobia and anti-semitism), then why ask for it?

I am not saying in any shape or form that we should accept everybody's opinions because everybody is entitled to them. I'm saying we should still question everybody's opinions and values because that is the one of the only ways a human being can grow.

What I am saying is that Barbelith should explicitly state their core values. This way when a Kaizer or hiccups debacle occurs, mods can point to the values and say, "maybe this isn't the best place for you, hiccups."

What I am saying is that, unless Barbelith states its values, posters should not point and accuse misunderstood newbies of being intolerable, and then ask them to find a new place to post. Let them see the error of their ways, but don't be such fucking assholes about it! (unless they really deserve it, but who's the judge on that? haha.)

This isn't a call for world peace, here. I'm just asking for a little bit more tolerance on the part of the older posters. Okay? I'm simply asking for the older posters to set an example; be kind, be mature.

Teach us gently the error of the newbie's ways.

(Also, in a lighthearted aside, Petey Shaftoe, can you be proved wrong? You are the ultimate ivory tower of perfected arguments. Jeez.)
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:39 / 23.10.05
I have a picture of him wearing a hawaiian shirt and dancing to Agadoo. I pwn him.

I do understand why the newer people on the board may feel the older posters are unnecessarily harsh at times, part of the problem with being on here a long time is that you may set us off on a topic we've discussed before and that might get you a snappy response but unfortunately such is life. You'll get it when you start a new job. The search function is borked and doing it through google is awkward. But at a certain point you've got to deal.

And arguing is not necessarily always a bad thing. Look at what's happening with Kaizer John. People flagged up some posts of his. He apologised for the parts he agreed were bad, and defended what he thought was a valid point of view. I see that as healthy.

As to core values I've been putting off and putting off starting either a thread or wiki page to define unacceptable speech on Barbelith, in terms of what can't be said 'minority x rule the world' and what, if any, ways there are to safely talk about the subject, such as potentially, the thread on anti-semitism in the head shop right now. I'm thinking of something a bit more meaty than the 'Things that will get you into trouble pretty quickly' part of the wiki. Do people want to do that now, while there seems to be a vague enthusiasm for change? I'm not interested at the moment so much in what happens when someone breaks whatever is decided as the unacceptable, that's a discussion for afterward.
 
 
*
07:35 / 23.10.05
matt— You've been registered since April of this year, with this suit anyway.

I'm scared to post, too, but I do it. And mostly as long as I'm not identifying my ideas with my self, I have some pretty good discussions. I don't have to agree with everyone to be well received— as a matter of fact people generally find a thought-provoking disagreement more interesting than a poorly-considered agreement. But the thing is... you have to be prepared to defend your ideas.

It's a fact of human nature: People will challenge you more if they disagree with you. If you post something of a conservative bent in a place where most people are liberals, you will be under a disproportionate burden to defend your ideas, because your opinions are more remarkable here. If you can't defend your ideas AND it seems to make you unhappy on barbelith, people will suggest you find another board. If you complain that everyone on barbelith is a prick, people will suggest you find a board where there aren't so many pricks. If what you say suggests that you don't like being in a place where your opinions are the minority, people will suggest you find a board where your opinions are the majority. No one will make you, unless you do something banworthy, which takes malice aforethought.

If you have a minority opinion and you defend your ideas well, you're more likely to get respect here than ridicule. Try it. Act as if you believe this is true for awhile. Post on heavy topics and say exactly what you mean, and defend your points. If someone seems to be insulting, ask if they intended to be and if so, why. (Consider that data collection.) If my hypothesis is wrong, then we'll talk about how to get the Elders to be more courteous towards newbs/posters with different opinions. But I rather suspect you'll find people are a lot more reasonable here than you expect.

This is not to say that you don't have a point about people often coming off as insulting on this board when it's not warranted. Some of us are just assholes sometimes, or we're generally cool but we have off nights; we're allowed to be human. If I'm being an asshole and someone calls me on it, I apologize and try to make sure there aren't any hurt feelings. It happens. It's not the end of the world. If you're so wrapped up in the board that it seems to be all-important, then I advise taking a step back for awhile to get some perspective. It helped me.

Flowers, I'm game to help, if you want it. Should we make that the "You've been sent here because someone thinks you've broached X subject in an offensive way and wants you to read this and then clarify" thread, or is that separate?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:12 / 23.10.05
That's seperate, and probably needs much more careful thought before we start it. I'm trying to avoid "I came to BArbeLith cOZ I ThouGHT U'd B Kool With Talkin' TRASH abut BITcjhes U FaCISTS!" situations in future.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:28 / 23.10.05
I'm not sure I see the problem, matt - if somebody is not happy here, and what would make them happy here would be a series of changes to the nature and culture of the board that are unlikely to happen, then they may well be happier on another board. There are an awful lot of message boards on the Internet, which cater to a wide range of interests and tastes. It would be a shame if somebody wasted their time and energy on a message board that did not make them happy when they could be enjoying one that did. We're trying to be help people to find their bliss, while at the same time providing all-important complaining material.

However, statement of core values good. Terms and conditions good. We can then talk about how to hold them up. On the other hand, the FAQ covers a fair amount of stuff already, including the dangers of taking challenges to your statements personally.
 
 
matthew.
13:49 / 23.10.05
Haus - I'm not asking for a series of changes. Just a little bit more courtesy.

I love this board. It is the only one - I repeat - the only one I post. I lurked on Barbelith for a loooooong time, and I desperately wanted to post on stuff.

I love this board because everybody is smart. There, I said it. Everybody is generally of a higher intelligence (not the supernatural kind, haha) and everybody is generally open to discuss topics that I find interesting (read: mostly inconsequential topics)

My only problem - I repeat - only problem is the asshole responses from people. I thought the whole point of the "preview reply" button was to avoid speaking without thinking. For my last post on here, I rewrote it twice, making sure that I had said everything I wanted to say and I hadn't made a glib comment, or something unclear.

So, in terms of a practical solution to my problems, and others, I'm simply suggesting that perhaps we have a Terms and Conditions form, and we have some sort of Warning label to the fascists and the anti-semites.

I'm also suggesting that perhaps the older posters could give us a little leeway and a little bit more respect. It's not like we're children. Some of us have a university degree, a novel published, a movie filmed, a library filled with thousands of books, or an A+ in Intro to Philosophy. Okay?

Thanks everybody for taking my previous post seriously.
 
 
grant
14:13 / 23.10.05
Smoothly: Earlier on in this thread rising and revolving posted to say I'm a dick. I misread Haus' writing what he meant as him having done so. Sorry about that .. and that struck me as something I don't read anything like enough on Barbelith. I don't think this is an ego thing so much as people being unused to saying that in other spheres of their lives.

Yes! You say what I wanted to.

Quantum: Barbelith=mean?

Sometimes, yes. Strange place.
 
 
Smoothly
14:25 / 23.10.05
Yeah, props to r&r I thought. Admitting a mistake and apologising is enormously powerful, I find. In my personal life I've always been struck by how the first person to say sorry during an argument is generally the one to come out of it smelling of roses.

I'm also suggesting that perhaps the older posters could give us a little leeway and a little bit more respect. It's not like we're children.

Well, exactly. Where I come from, adults are cut less slack than children are, not more.
Barbelith isn't perfect, but I can't believe that it's too nasty. It's the softest, mushiest, huggliest board I've ever been to. The people who think Barbelith is mean, I honestly wonder how they're getting through life.
 
 
Ganesh
18:19 / 23.10.05
I'm also suggesting that perhaps the older posters could give us a little leeway and a little bit more respect. It's not like we're children. Some of us have a university degree, a novel published, a movie filmed, a library filled with thousands of books, or an A+ in Intro to Philosophy. Okay?

No, not really - but not not-okay either. Just largely irrelevant. The fact that you (tell us you) have achieved X, Y and Z in your life offline means a whole lot less than what and how you actually contribute here. That's your primary means of earning respect.

Don't tell us you're intelligent. Show us. Act intelligently. Say intelligent things.
 
 
Ganesh
18:43 / 23.10.05
As the man said, less whining, more adapting.
 
 
w1rebaby
18:58 / 23.10.05
I think there's a problem here with "old posters" being seen as being equivalent to "Barbelith". I can understand that when you join a new board you tend to see the most vocal posters as being representative of the board as a whole - and indeed they may well claim to be - but really, old posters are just posters. They will probably have a better idea of what is likely to fly than new posters do, and have a lot of experience with similar arguments in the past, but none of them actually represent Barbelith. I was going to say "apart from Tom" there but actually, even Tom doesn't represent Barbelith qua community; he has ultimate power, and he could alter the community through banning or restructuring to make it more in line with his attitudes should he so choose, but the community is larger than any one person.

Because an old poster appears to be being sarcastic to you does not mean that Barbelith is being sarcastic. For that matter, because a new poster appears to be being racist does not mean that Barbelith is becoming racist. I think that's the crux of my issue with many posts on this thread, the conflating of individual posts with some sort of unified board will. There is no such thing.
 
 
Smoothly
20:38 / 23.10.05
I know you're saying, fridge; I certainly don't think that the 'unified board will' maps onto the will of the older posters. But unless we recognise that a unified will can emerge from a collection of individuals, then I don't know what we're doing here. That's what communities are about - they have a personality, the behave in certain ways, lean in certain directions... That's nothing to be ashmed of.
So if enough new posters appear to be racist then Barbelith is becoming racist. There are such things as societies, aren't there? It's not just individuals, is it?
 
 
w1rebaby
22:00 / 23.10.05
No, I have a problem with that. There is such a thing as society, Thatcher wasn't right. That thing is not the same as a central entity which has an opinion. There is no "Barbelith attitude"; there is only a set of attitudes that correspond to the people who make the most difference when it comes to influencing what happens on Barbelith (which is subject to change at any time) and regarding which those people will likely act.

That set is important but it's not the same as there being some independent will here. The entity called Barbelith is not a poster or anything approaching that. "Barbelith" doesn't have an attitude or an opinion.
 
 
Smoothly
22:30 / 23.10.05
There is no "Barbelith attitude"; there is only a set of attitudes that correspond to the people who make the most difference when it comes to influencing what happens on Barbelith (which is subject to change at any time) and regarding which those people will likely act.

Ng. Well I'm just tempted to say that that 'set of attitudes that correspond with the people who make the most difference...&al' is the Barbelith Attitude, for want of a better shorthand. And indeed, that set is subject to change, and managing that change is largely what this discussion of how instances of various isms are handled on the board is about.

And I would say it is an independent will, insofar that it doesn't correlate with that of any particular poster or any identifiable group of posters (other than, by definition, the one that shapes the culture of Barbelith, as sketched above). If individual instances of racism say nothing and represent nothing in terms of Barbelith as a whole, then why do we care so much? 'So what if he's a racist; I'm not, she's not... *shrug*'

Of course this 'will' isn't a poster, it doesn't have a ficsuit. But it's there and we feel it. A community is more than the sum of its parts, isn't it? Am I just way off beam here?
 
 
matthew.
23:52 / 23.10.05
Ganesh: those aren't my achievements, they were examples, but I understand what you mean. I need to articulate rather than simply cry and run home to mommy.
Well... I'm not running home to mommy. I'm right here, posting even if I encountered some people having an asshole day. It happens. So I'm posting here, trying to articulate my specific problem with Barbelith.

I think Smoothly has a point. that 'set of attitudes that correspond with the people who make the most difference...&al' is the Barbelith Attitude, for want of a better shorthand -> if the set of attitudes and "Barb attitude" are different things, what are the differences? I think they are one and the same.

fridgemagnet said Because an old poster appears to be being sarcastic to you does not mean that Barbelith is being sarcastic. For that matter, because a new poster appears to be being racist does not mean that Barbelith is becoming racist. I think that's the crux of my issue with many posts on this thread, the conflating of individual posts with some sort of unified board will.

I disagree. If a good number of the vocal posters, the frequent posters, turn into assholes, then couldn't you say that as a whole, Barb is turning into an asshole. It's not a unified board will, it's simply the changing attidudes of a collective of rather vocal people. If instead of banning anti-semites, we accepted them, they would flood the place and then Barb would be anti-semite.

All of this conjecture on what makes Barb Barb is better graved in stone: a Terms and Conditions. I can't support this idea any more than I already have. Using my above example of anti-semites, if we accept them in moderation, and they try to flood the place, then we can always point to something and then say, "you're fucking banned, anti-semite."

Also, another suggestion, that I think somebody also suggested, some sort of warning device for people who have acted like assholes too many times. Sure, I could just post, "Hey, stop being a dick," and maybe they'd stop. But if that dick poster keeps being a dick, then some sort of warning could be instituted.

And I'd like to say one more thing, if I could... This whole series of posts that I have done here... I'm not trying to re-create Barb in my image. I'm not trying to say, "This board needs an overhaul." No, I'm just pointing out something that happens on other boards all the time. And, everybody, aren't we better than other boards? Aren't we a cut above?
 
 
Char Aina
00:59 / 24.10.05
If individual instances of racism say nothing and represent nothing in terms of Barbelith as a whole, then why do we care so much? 'So what if he's a racist; I'm not, she's not... *shrug*'

i care when i see racists most places. the difference here is that barbelith is one of the few places where challenging it is not weighted in racism's favour, and that makes challenging it less like pissing into the wind.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:45 / 26.10.05
So, "quazi" lurking for a while gave POP the idea that a good thread for the TV/Film/Theatre forum would be to ask which of two Star Trek characters would be "lamer". But who could blame him, after all, since it's not written anywhere that that forum has to have higher standard of discussion than the (now best nuked from space) Comics forum?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:58 / 26.10.05
I'm conflicted. It is a totally crap thread, but at the same time I don't want to dump it in the Conversation because that's not what the Conversation should be for.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:21 / 26.10.05
Oh, leave it. It'll either sink or become funny, at which point a move to Conversation would be appropriate, cos you wouldn't just be dumping the FTVT forum's shit there.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:45 / 26.10.05
That question is very important. Well perhaps not the lamer part, perhaps the question should be who's rubbisher but anyway the answer is important.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:46 / 26.10.05
Basically, when the revolution comes, the first thing I'm going to do is shoot anyone who said Jake was more rubbish than Wesley Crusher. The rubbishest character in the entire universe.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:20 / 26.10.05
So, "quazi" lurking for a while gave POP the idea that a good thread for the TV/Film/Theatre forum would be to ask which of two Star Trek characters would be "lamer". But who could blame him, after all, since it's not written anywhere that that forum has to have higher standard of discussion than the (now best nuked from space) Comics forum?

Whilst certainly not a subject that required a thread all to itself, there are a number of Star Trek fans that post on TV/Film. If they enjoy discussing something as monumentally limited as which character is "better" then surely that's completely within their right to do so.

I'm not a fan of, for instance, Nip/Tuck. But I feel it would be a little presumptuous of me to suggest that talking about it on Barbelith, in the area devoted to that form of media entertainment, is somehow beneath Barbelith's lofty ideals.

As I say, it's not really a subject worth having an entire thread to itself. But people are posting on it are they not? Arguably it's more of a Conversation thread, but it's subject matter is two tv characters.

R.e. The Comics section. Well, it's popular and a lot of people enjoy talking on it. Some of the threads are quite intelligently written, and some others aren't. That applies throughout the board. Unless you authorise moderators to arbitarily delete threads they consider not worthy of discussion (which is IMO not really practical) then you have to take the rough with the smooth.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
11:42 / 26.10.05
a Terms and Conditions. I can't support this idea any more than I already have. Using my above example of anti-semites, if we accept them in moderation, and they try to flood the place, then we can always point to something and then say, "you're fucking banned, anti-semite."

Only marginally off-topic, I have had trouble, both in terms of wondering and questioning myself, and in terms of reaction from others, on a Comics forum thread where I thought posts seemed to be subtly mocking Jewishness but where it was pretty hard to pin down, and such an intention was denied by the author of those posts.

I don't think the Comics forum is currently worse than Films and TV. There are more substantial discussions in both -- I've tried to start a couple myself in Comics -- and I think it would be a mistake to frown upon the fun from a comic books forum. Arguing about which superhero's costumes suck and rock is what got a lot of people into reading comics in the first place; yes, maybe we should have got over it by the age of 10, but to me that remains one of the pleasures of the genre.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:42 / 26.10.05
If they enjoy discussing something as monumentally limited as which character is "better" then surely that's completely within their right to do so.

Yes yes yes, they have the "right". But it's a bit depressing when they do, isn't it? It's not the fact that the thread is about Star Trek per se that bothers me, it's the fact that somebody lurked on Barbelith for a while and thought "I know what would make for a good thread - which of these characters from a sci-fi TV show is lamer?"
 
 
Ganesh
11:49 / 26.10.05
I guess it depends. It's not depressing me, particularly, certainly no more so than vacuous threads elsewhere.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
11:59 / 26.10.05
It is quite a fruitfull subject though, there is a huge array of lame characters in Space Pony, i mean Star Trek. If someone lurks then posts this kind of stuff, then it's fine in my opinion, hopefully there'll be plenty of other people that'll lurk & post something a little more imaginative.
To be honest, i'm more concerened that the lurking then posting a thread like the aforementioned says more about the current perceived quality/state of Barbelith than the poster in question.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:02 / 26.10.05
It could also be seen as "dipping a toe in the water"- starting a seemingly incosequential thread to ease oneself in, so to speak. Not necessarily a good strategy, but a little more understandable.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:09 / 26.10.05
I think it's a good thread. Clearly many of you haven't had enough Jake Wesley screen time.

Don't worry, Seth can probably make you a mix tape.
 
 
Ganesh
12:11 / 26.10.05
I can assure you I've had more than enough.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
12:17 / 26.10.05
no you have not!
 
  

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