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All-Star Superman

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15:02 / 10.01.07

Have you seen in the news about those super-efficient ladybirds that are forcing out native British ladybirds (and taking their jobs and wearing burkhas, presumably)?

That's what Clark could be to Lex. To him he's MRSA. A super-bug. Resisting all attempts to get rid of him and, eventually, dominating the ecosystem (of a thousand worlds!)

Is Lex, meanwhile, impotent? It's implied, if only metaphorically. Full body alopecia. And his daughter/sidekick Nastahalia isn't blood of his blood.

Although it could be argued that Lex is beyond blood ties, his is a heritage of ideals and survival of the smartest.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

15:45 / 10.01.07

Is Lex, meanwhile, impotent? It's implied, if only metaphorically. Full body alopecia. And his daughter/sidekick Nastahalia isn't blood of his blood.

Niece, isn't she? What are the traditional depictions of the Luthor siblings? Have there been any? I thought he went and had children back in the Silver Age on Lexor, that planet devoted to him, but maybe not. He had a daughter in the mainline for a while. But, yeah, All-Star's certainly pointing to him being, er, not virile (his genes will not pass on) and metaphorically impotent.

17:48 / 10.01.07

Niece, isn't she?

Not according to the text. Yeah, I'm thinking Lex has a barren scepter, sho nuff.

22:02 / 10.01.07

I've just read this in a blog about Morrison's Batman, and encapsulated everything I thought of A*S as Pop Art in a way I could never express it myself:

"Batman’s hilarious battle-cry, “If there’s one thing I hate…it’s art with no content!” manages to be simulataneously an ironic wink at the absurdity of ninja Man-Bats (art with no content writ large!), an ironic nod to the lighter tone of the book, and an apt comment on the difference between a Roy Lichtenstein exercise in form and the comic book medium itself (art with content because, unlike the decontextualized and amusing but alienating Lichtenstein panels, it has an involving narrative)."
(blog: "Double Articulation")

Doesn't mention the sort of (Invisibles/7S)meta I believe it exists in there as well, but nailed it in what made me like the comic at first glance: incredible lucid analysis of the myth, the iconic properties throughout the decades, the symbols, primal folk motifs, female representations, "self" representations, the interchangeable qualities between versions of the films, tv and the (old) comics etc. Without ever losing it's involving narrative, one side endlessly "recuperating" the other unto itself, in playful seriousness or serious playfulness.

Damn, I'm liking this comic a bit too much, I think.

22:11 / 10.01.07

I'm liking this comic a bit too much, I think.

Naw. It's good. It's a rare beast in that it's very, very good.

I still say 7 Soldiers is the most brilliant thing Morrison's completed - his superhero version of Journey to Ixtlan - but ASS will be Great; and once completed, I think, its memory and mark will stand colosally astride the mouth of the comics river for some significant time.

I think in his New Old-er-lies, George has hit a real and renewed stride of compassion and bullshit and Madness-For- Great-Justice in his work.

20:29 / 11.01.07

So, duh, how tightly bound is each issue? How little's wasted?

That tree that got hit by lightning? Or the 'lightning door', rather, heralding the futurotrio's arrival.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

20:52 / 11.01.07

Re: Martha Kent. From A*S #5:

CLARK: I picked up shorthand from my Ma.
LEX: Give her my regards next time you drop by the family plot.

Doesn't necessarily mean anything, but Lex clearly knows enough about Clark ("Why aren't you blushing? I know you have feelings for her.") to know what to what to bring up abuse/manipulate him, as he tries to do throughout their interview session.

Re: the lightning door. Makes sense, although it makes you wonder what the Superman Squad were doing for that evening and day before they arrive on the Kent farm...as an aside, there's some nice Quitely work with the detail on that China hung up on the wall behind Clark.

Aha! I am Klarion

23:43 / 11.01.07

Maybe the joke is that everyone knows Super-man is Clark...and still messes with him for various reasons. Super-dickery in reverse.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

03:37 / 12.01.07

That exterior shot panel of the Diner in Smallville is beautiful. The eyebrowed windows on the building next door! The signs and streetlights! The detail of the tilted telephone pole stands out to me. The resonance of Lana shouting, "Look at us! The old gang, all grown up!" while the aging man walks by, full of Chronovore, the sweet-sad undercurrent of "the old gang" growing up and away from each other losing time as something else eats up time more insidiously. The chalkboard over Pete's head.

04:04 / 12.01.07

Actually, everyone knowing who Superman is could be a fair guess at an eventual revelation down the plotline. Lana Lang obviously knows Superman's alter-ego after the last panel in the diner scene of #6, which I'm guessing she revealed after one of the many storied Lana-Clark romantic flight stories. And maybe Lois' skepticism from #2 was louder than it should have been.

Wouldn't that be an interesting turn of events?

The Natural Way

09:14 / 12.01.07

Err.

No.

But I know it's fun to chuck ideas around, so carry on.

09:43 / 12.01.07

Word on the detail, Papes.

Check this.

When Clark gets up to go for a telephone booth super-piss costume change he heads left... when the restrooms are clearly marked and in the back to the right

I heart Quite Frankly.

10:34 / 12.01.07

For me the absolute best detail in this issue was Superboy and Krypto on the moon. For figures that are just over 4 millimetres high, there's a stunning amount of expression in their body language, with Clark's relaxed shoulders and Krypto looking up at him like a gud dog, it's just lovely. I want a dog that can shoot lazer beam from his eyes.

14:15 / 12.01.07

I kinda interpreted the whole "pretend she doesn't know"/ "pretend you don't know she knows" charade (well, pretty much the entire scene) as a joke on "My Secret!" drama.

Reminded me of Stephen Colbert's character in "Strangers With Candy" and Birdgirl from "Harvey Birdman". The both almost treated with pity by everyone else, "yeah yeah we don't know your secret..." (either that or people just fucking with their heads, as they obvious themselves out there).

I mean, wasn't that why Lois not believing Clark=Super was funny? (beside the fact that it's her very own cynicism that's making her so off-target and delusional dreamland. And the major fuckedup-ness out of a very simple thing).

I even came to think at one point that "Lois not believing" was her own joke on Superman, and Sups is actually all "c'mon, stop that"...

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

16:54 / 12.01.07

I mean, wasn't that why Lois not believing Clark=Super was funny? (beside the fact that it's her very own cynicism that's making her so off-target and delusional dreamland. And the major fuckedup-ness out of a very simple thing).

Actually, whether or not she consciously believes him after all the trouble he's gone to concealing it, Lois clearly subconsciously realizes the truth because she's treating Superman more like she treats Clark, right down to the sarcastic jabs.

17:07 / 12.01.07

her very own cynicism that's making her so off-target

Speaking of off target.

I'm not sure if it's a language or attitude issue here, Sparrow, but her cynicism stems from the fact that every single time in their long-term relationship that she's tried to prove CLARK =/= SUPERMAN Clark has managed to pull some trick on her to prove her wrong.

She's pretty justified in feeling that way and your wording makes it sound like it isn't and that it's her own fault she doesn't believe Supes. I apologise if this wasn't your intention but that's how it sounds to me.

19:27 / 12.01.07

Not at all, Trips. I meant she was failing to see the truth, not "not accepting Superman to her life". "Delusional" and "dreamland" actually were dumb choices -- that imply she's wrong and Sups' right -- to simply describe the irony that is (previously already cynical and now Super-jaded) Lois not believing the on-the-nose(glasses? hehe) truth for being afraid of believing in dreamland, when in a Superman comic dreamland is the true one. Or maybe not ironical at all, but just illustrating normal cynicism at work.
(and how that fits into us buying into a story about an unbelievable being)
(sorry, even I'm lost now)

In fact, I see as part of many of the jokes/quirks on Superman maybe not deserving a chance with her at all (depending on which past you dig up -- 'cause you can't actually use the, what, past 70 years right? It's just a vague sense of dickery, lies, abuse, sexism, demeaning and misogynistic behavior). And that he's actually on the edge of being a creepy SOB (issue #2... maybe it's a callback satire, parodying, purging, goofing off or whatever. But it creeps me the hell out).

I actually bought that "Showcase Superman" (with old Sups stories) to get a feeling of what Silver Age Superman past was about (since my knowledge about the character was a vague recollection due to pop culture, the Donner movie I hated from childhood and sites like "Superman is a Dick" -- the last one explains A*S the best for me). Morrison's "purging" treatment of these "old" things (not old, 'cause you can actually scrape off of today's books) can be seen on many places, but I still can't grasp a definitive last judgment or true intention on that #2, for instance.

PS: anyone ever caught a pattern in the "Sups=PrinceCharming[b]?[/b]" in comics and movies? In the Donner film, there's that whole monologue where Lois is afraid that the alien might be kidnapping&invading-like and reading her mind. In Synger's, there's the Superstalker. And A*S has Shahryar AutopsyPerv Redrum Bluebeard.

19:45 / 12.01.07

Sorry, long and sense-lacking post for just saying "I agree, Superman was a dick".

00:15 / 13.01.07

TRUTH!

00:28 / 13.01.07

>> In the Donner film, there's that whole monologue where Lois is afraid that the alien might be kidnapping&invading-like and reading her mind.

Are you talking about the 'can you read my mind?' monologue (along with song?)? I don't sense any fear in her that Supes is a kidnapping malevolent alient in that scene, or in the way Lois is portrayed in either Superman I or II.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

00:49 / 13.01.07

Although that would have been a hilarious scene if there had been that undercurrent. Superman by way of Mars Attacks!

01:17 / 13.01.07

Can't remember perfectly. I know it was intended to be a overall romantic scene. But as was Synger's, no matter how weirdly "stalker!" it was when they pass by Lois' house (maybe intentionally, who knows. Don't think that was something Synger wouldn't notice). But somehow that scene in issue #2 where Lois wonders if "is this it, or will this be a big disappointment?" strucked me as a pattern in "mainstream" Superman (from my "collective memory" of Superman from general pop culture, that flying scene from Donner is a romantic one that made it's dent -- so why that creepy line is in there?).

But I don't know. I have a feeling that, outside of comic books, the notion of reading one's mind has more to do with a sense of lost privacy and boundaries, invasion, violation and control than "Cool! Powers!". Specially when involves around the romantic department. For someone in the romance scene to ask that in their heads as if he was already reading her mind, yeah, I think there'd had to be a certain level of suspicion concerning the alien who just popped in. Can't remember the entire scene. Maybe it was actually entirely romantic as Lois felt freely exposed and happily vulnerable and openly naked etc. But it feels something eerie there... only if it's for just one line. It bothers me in the same way Singer's moment.

I always interpreted it as the obligatory "well she's gotta be at least a bit suspicious that he's a alien" bit to make it more "real", but never considered until recently as extending it into the romantic interaction, and dropping the alien factor considering it's a scene mostly targeted at the female demographic, and that it could be mainly more about "is this new guy the one?".

(I have to learn to write shorter posts)

01:23 / 13.01.07

And I just read my post, I sound like a offended and offensive dick. Sorry. It's late and just got from work. Add "translate tone better to internet forums" to that list to learn.

(oh, and yes, my reading of Donner's Superman has undercurrents from the sorts of Mars Attack. C'mon, it's aliens in Kansas! I watched one episode of Smallville and it looked like a bigger satire than "Mars Attack!". Whenever I see something from America from the past, I seem to have this prejudice-habit of doubling the fear factor of "alieness")

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

01:29 / 13.01.07

Sparrow: I always interpreted it as the obligatory "well she's gotta be at least a bit suspicious that he's a alien" bit to make it more "real", but never considered until recently as extending it into the romantic interaction, and dropping the alien factor considering it's a scene mostly targeted at the female demographic, and that it could be mainly more about "is this new guy the one?".

First off, beware the assumption that only women (and all women!) are the targets for the romantic vibe, especially with regard to Superman - as has been said earlier in the thread (I think it was Cassandra/Chad) - Superman's always been as much about screwball romantic comedy as he is about punching bad guys.

Secondly, part of the suspension-of-disbelief is that Superman is almost universally acknowledged as being a positive "All-American" hero figure by the people of Metropolis; Lex Luthor is necessarily an exception and his unwillingness to accept Superman's uber-positioning marks him out as xenophobic where everyone else (in many cases) blindly accept him as a bastion of good old fashioned super-values. This is dealt with to a certain extent in the Alan Davis JLA elseworld The Nail - without Superman acting as an "easy, humanistic" representative of off-worlders, there's a much stronger xenophobia directed toward super-heroes in general and this proves to be a plot crux.

01:36 / 13.01.07

Well that's the thing. I can't see romanticism in that scene 'cause I can't seem to relate to that film at all. Must be something really wrong with me. But consider your majority of male americans in the seventies in the theaters. I think it can be considered safe to presume that most of them would call that scene as "the girly part", or "massage my ego, 'cause I'm mr. Wonderful" bit or "the scene taken out of some chick flick" or whatever.
(and I didn't considered it to be liked by ONLY and ALL women. It's just how hollywood scenes are made, isn't? "Aim the broadest you can"?)

(is it wrong for me to consider the majority of white-male americans in the seventies as the sports-guy in the Daily Planet?)

01:48 / 13.01.07

And yes, that might be the biggest point to Superman of them all. That for years, aliens were "RAPTURE: HELL ON EARTH", with Superman is "HEAVENLY RAPTURE: JESUS ON EARTH (and he's a kind red-blooded good old american boy)".

re: screwball romantic comedy.
Mos def. There was always a certain Hepburn vibe to it all from what I can remember in those old stories...

02:31 / 13.01.07

Sorry for triple posting on a page filled with posts from me.

Just saw the scene on youtube for the first time in years. It's about Lois vulnerable in a romantic way alright. Nothing more. I guess the combination of Singer's scene, issue #2 and my lack of empathy for Donner's film did something with my memory.

(but I think I'll stay with a stubborn "but still...")

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

15:54 / 13.01.07

Singer's "Super-Stalker" scene makes sense if you think about the fact that Clark hasn't just been gone for five years, he left the planet and divorced himself from human civilization for five years. In fact, being in the airlessness of space means that he hasn't said a word in five years until he crash-lands -- again -- in Smallville, on the old Kent homestead. He's got only his memories and some highly underused super-social-skills to operate in the world. He is, at this point, used to watching from afar while things happen elsewhere but not interacting. Donner's scene, by contrast, is a super-sexy man offering a woman the sky with all the bemused and befuddled charm of a Kansas farmboy who was very much a part of the world even as he felt divorced from it. The Donner scene is all about him integrating his aspects so that he function successfully, while the Singer scene is all about his inability to function.

Which is threadrotty.

I was wondering, idly (yes, I think about Superman too much), about why Lois wasn't more active in the "Superwoman" story, and came to the conclusion that she follows the Golden Age ideal of Clark Kent more closely - she's the crusading reporter and active enough in her own life that she doesn't really need to beat things up? I don't know. Something about that particular issue still bothers me in terms of story. I still really want to see All-Star Lois and All-Star Lana meet up and see how Mozzer would treat the interaction compared to the Silver Age "Rival Sweethearts" routine.

16:49 / 13.01.07

Yeah, I thought that was really cool about Lois in #3. When she's losing her powers, she misses smelling trees in Canada and seeing radio waves and hearing stars. She misses information because she's a reporter. Flying is fun, but rolling around beating things up is best left to the silly boys fighting over her. ("Stay away from my girl!")

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

19:18 / 13.01.07

John: She misses information because she's a reporter. Flying is fun, but rolling around beating things up is best left to the silly boys fighting over her.

That's a beautiful reading and beats the hell out of mine. That last page with Lois in Clark's arms, describing the rising dim of her senses...one of the best in the series so far. Information. Lois is all about information...

19:31 / 13.01.07

You can't stop the super-signal...

Aha! I am Klarion

21:08 / 13.01.07

So basically Singer's Super-man was a existential piece (ignore all the religious iconography). Superman's Emo?

21:14 / 13.01.07

I just read it this afternoon - I like reading my most colorful at saturday mornings and afternoons - and it brought a tear... great great job, Jamie [fucking great colors; the night scene was amazing], Grant and Vince! I loved it and I love you guys.

reading a*S is like listening to a new album by a band whose career you've been following for a while: you get their signature style there, but they've aged [like wine] and it's all so streamlined, but not empty: they do so much by using so few tools. it's all multi-layered and a silent panel says much more than all of today's comics SmartTalk (C).

this can be an Eisner winner for best single issue, I'm sure. the Superboy comics vibe's here, from the big empty spaces to the Smallville diner and Krypto on the Moon. it was just like a missing issue from the Superboy comic, actually, a bridge from teen 'revolt' Clark from Smallville to Supercool Kent in Metropolis. the true mission to have those last 3 minutes with Pa Kent, who acts like he kind of knows his grown-up kid is under the bandages...

hm, is the dog alive with Ma Kent in this book's chronology? maybe Lana kept him if old Ma's gone. GUD DOG!

def. want to see grown up Lana again. with kids, maybe.

not many things left to mention than you guys haven't already. noticed how Unknown Superman's old bandages are yellowish, golden maybe?

so, Superman does in his future what Dane says in the INVISIBLE: you make friends with your enemies, until they can't stand you. in Supes' case, you IMPREGNATE your enemies until they spawn the [ideological] fruit of your endeavours. a friend of mine always said how all the designs for the kryptonian ship that brought Kal to Earth either looked like a dick [pre-Crisis] or a spermatozoid [Byrne and on]...

so I suppose [K]Cal Kent can indeed be the offspring of a descendant from Supes and a descendent from [a cloned] Lex. he's born in Earth after all. and who's Earth's finest? gotta track that old SUPERMAN 1 MILLION to see if there was any origin. I remember there was a "World's Finest" kid, the daughter of future Lex and future Joker... or was that future Brainiac.

22:43 / 13.01.07

re: Superwoman "not kicking ass".

Yeah, wasn't the point that we weren't supposed to want any fights or any clashes-for-the-ego etc (and the reason why Sups didn't fight once yet by issue #6 -- although it seems by the next cover, Sups will finally get himself into some man wrestling)? Was I wrong to assume that's the entire bizarre romantic comedy effect on the series? The issue where Lois is at her most present, even though she's at her most absent, 'cause we should be reading that whole silliness through her eyes etc? I had this whole theory written down as this being a big part of a Venusian Lois-fertility-goddess meta-awareness that ended up being put to test with the "Quantum Love" scene, but my mind is a bit too fogy now. It had something to do with an invocation (birth, birthday, spawning, rising, taking over etc) of Venusian properties through her absence. Something very like ALP from finnegans wake...

I mean, that's why Atlas has a "possible tiniest erection" when Superman finally comes from behind coming the closest from giving Samson the grief, wasn't? A symbolic ambiguous joke on the desire for rush-conflict-tension-heat man-on-man-action, reptilian brain territorial conflict etc?

04:08 / 14.01.07

hey, people, I was wondering...

the thread now has gone past 25 pages / 900 posts, so what do you guys think of a new one covering A*S #07 to 12? we can still discuss everything related to 01-06 here.

I know in the end it's one big story and one issue affects the other [not in maajor ways], but maybe it'll make it easier to be researched.

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