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All-Star Superman

 
  

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garyancheta
23:14 / 26.03.08
Also, does anyone else think that Dr. Quintum is up to no good? I keep on thinking that he's up to something, or that Superman knows he's up to something so he's purposefully playing into his game (which is why he gives him the DNA samples).
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
23:22 / 26.03.08
No, I don't think Leo's up to no good. We've talked about this before (somewhere waaaaay upthread), that he hits the uncomfortable duh-duh-dunnn moments purely because we've been conditioned to expect that kind of a twist. Leo seems like he's always on the verge of being a negative figure, but...

He's a grown-up Jimmy Olsen. He's a good Lex Luthor. He's a chromosome-swapped Lois who went into science rather than journalism. He himself is surprised that Superman levels him with the trust that he does (which excited me to say that Superman is trust, and that moment is the big one for me this issue), because Quintum gets that he's only a human being (cross-ref his statements in #1 about having fear genes), but Superman's faith is transformative.

I'd forgotten that Van-Zee was a double.

Also: cross-ref the second scene in the hospital with upthread comments about Lex Luthor's take on Superman as "The Super-Infection from Planet Krypton." And that leads me into the other point, that this issue is so totally the perfect example of how this series is very much the spiritual heir to Flex Mentallo, with leitmotifs repeating...
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
06:13 / 27.03.08
Zipparow-- Love the concept of a Olsenian Quintum (nice rhyme with 4's Quintumian Olsen). The thoughts layouts.

Hadn't even thought about that. Lovely symmetry.

Gary-- The twin aspect seems to have some sort of meaning in the overall scope of the story.

Part of the recurring theme is replacement by successors; Vann-Zee is a member of the Superm(a/e)n Emergency Squad, made up of Kal lookalikes. Much as Kal Kent was his successor, and Bizarro his his reversed successor. Lilo and Bar-El as failed replacements, overwhelmed by their own desire to impose Krypton on Earth. So the twin aspect is throughout, glommed in with the general idea of replacements. Patch that onto the meta-narrative about DC's stagnant superhero culture, where you may have new versions of old characters, but these replacements are often the old ones made younger (think about the new Doctor Fate being Kent Nelson, but apparently not the same Kent Nelson as the original Doctor Fate, maybe, possibly). If anything, Number Ten is more notable for the implication of non-twin replacements that are directly part of Superman's dynasty (rather than remote descendents like the Superman Squad from the outer future).
 
 
FinderWolf
16:27 / 27.03.08
>> Superman's faith is transformative.

Yep -- Leo is a good guy, through and through. 1) early on, I'm sure Grant meant to try and psyche us out w/Leo, and 2) Leo himself is so flattered and shocked by Superman's trust, pointing out that human nature is such that what if Supes doesn't really KNOW Leo... how do we really KNOW that anyone will be there for us, will be reliable, will be trustworthy...? We don't, ultimately. Trust is risk. and faith.

And Qwewq is back! I think I recall someone a while ago pointing out that Mozzer 'borrowed'/was inspired by a city in Italo Calvino's INVISIBLE CITIES which was named something almost like Qwewq but with a 1 letter difference... Good to see the 'Qwewq is our real-life Earth' get fleshed out even more... Nietzche and The Superman/Ubermensch concept... choked up to see Jerry Seigel (or was it Joe Shuster's) ratty pencil creating a dream that would last forever. ("Third time's the charm"...? is there a historical bit about the artist - I think Shuster was the artist, right? - taking 2 unsuccesful tries at designing the character before he did the 3rd?)

Speaking of Qwewq (or "Earth Q" in a tip of the hat to DC's "Earth [Fill In The Blank w/a Number or Initial routine], anyone know who the religious speaker is in what appears to be Rome or Germany? My guess was Martin Luther (isn't he around 1600 or something) but my time period/history could be waaay off, not having consulted a history book/wikipedia yet.

and the Regan page --- beautiful.

Superman curing cancer with the microscopic doctors from Kandor - wonderful.

(are we to assume that the busload on page 1 is filled with the cancer patient children - Supes takes them on a tour of the world since they normally can't leave their hospital rooms? Figured as such, but wasn't 100% sure)

Luthor spits at Supes. Yikes. Venom that refuses to die; hatred that refuses to lay down its arms. At first that 'spit' effect was a little unclear to me, thought it was some weird spark at first. Then I got it.

The concept of just having the Kandorian residents LEAVE THE BOTTLE CITY and live a life as Superman-powered mini-people is a fun one too - never seen that done before. Good solution too - their pride is saved by having their own planet to deal with. (Mars - red planet under a yellow sun, for people formerly under a red sun) Although Supes' line about 'why didn't I trust them enough to see this solution?' was interesting - I guess he never really considered turning the entire Kandorian population amok/loose on the world, or a world.
 
 
Spaniel
16:35 / 27.03.08
So the American contingent doesn't get their comics a day late after a bank holiday...

Booooo! We've got to wait until tomorrow.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:36 / 27.03.08
I had been wondering - how is Superman supposed to have all these 'descendants' in the future if he, as he states here, can't possibly have children with Lois? Now we have the answer. Lois' DNA from when she was Superwoman. Niiiice.

The scene with Lois was fantastic here - very moving.

Full-page shot of Supes in his chair/throne dictating his will: astonishing.

The realization/light bulb shot of Supes realizing 'solar intelligence' - soooo fucking good. Heeeere comes Solaris!!!!

Lois looks better & better every time she shows up under Quitely's pencil.

Good pickup of Bar-L's bridge rampage escapade w/the Moon in previous issue -

Loved the psuedo/text messaging/phonics speech of the Super-Descendent in the little time bubble. "Sprman@21Century" as quasi-email address. Lol. His name is... Ru-Maktu?

and... a new costume for Supes to help him deal with Solaris? TUNE IN NEXT ISSUE, TRUE BELIEVERS!!

More All-Star Supes, please. #12 can't be the end. Don't let it end.
 
 
Quimper
16:49 / 27.03.08
Gosh. What beauty.

Qwewq is us? No wonder Nebula Man is such a dick.

The Regan scene will stay with me always as Superquintessence.
 
 
CameronStewart
19:52 / 27.03.08
I think I've translated the 24th Century dialogue as:

"Greetings, Superman of the 21st Century! You do not know me - I do not know if you can understand my language. I am Roo-Mac2, super scientist of the 24th Century. My great-great-great grandmother owed her life to you. To you, I also owe. I am forbidden to send information to the past but I owe you my life, and I hope that you see this warning. Greetings from the 24th Century, Superman!"


But I'm confused by the last one. "N-time" = "End Times"?
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
20:33 / 27.03.08
For a minute there, I thought that Superman was gonna put Kandor inside Qwewq; witch I don't know if I would have liked more or less; that way it would make a solution out of two problems (Kandor being small, Qwewq being without superheroes/fantastic elements), but then we wouldn't have SuperMicroDoctors healing cancer (witch takes us back to the Filth and I-Life) and "the real world" being inside Qwewq; something that has the side-efect of putting the mainstream DC continuity inside the comic books of Earth-Q; making the "official" DCU versions of these characters flawed (by continuity? by crap writing?) reflections of the bigger and more iconic, more pure A*S universe; thus making the "All-Star" Superman is the REAL Superman.

Also, is just me or this "Superman creates Earth-Q / Earth-Q creates Superman character" equation smells like a Gnostic thing? I'm thinking: Superman = God, Earth-Q = Sophia, the Superman character in Earth-Q comics = Demiurge.

Hh. Maybe I'm reaching.

Hey Yotsuba, what makes you think that the future guy is Regan's decendant? Cuz' it would be really cool if that were the case; Superman unwittingly saving (or at least helping) himself by saving Regan.
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
20:39 / 27.03.08
"My great-great-great grandmother owed her life to you."

Oh, THAT was what made Yotsuba think the Rogan/Roo-Mac2 relation, of course. Futurespeak kind of went over my head on the first read. Thanks for the translation, Cam.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:54 / 27.03.08
Qwewq is similar in name to the character of Qfwfq from Calvino's Cosmicomics, a collection of odd fables about the before-time when the laws of physics were still flexible. GM previously referenced Qfwfq in his 5th Dimensional JLA storyline.

I was also momentarily convinced that Kandor was to be fired into Qwewq, but I'm fairly happy with how things resolved.

Loved the layouts in this issue. The big panels really explode by contrast.

Clark's scene with Lois is so beautiful; she's finally allowed to see him at his weakest, most fearful, and sad-- he can't face her, of course, because he's dying and he doesn't know how to make things end well with her. They've lost so much time through lies, deceit, and shenanigans...Kal is losing his faith in that scene, but only Lois gets to see. They'll never make this work. "There's always a way." Role reversal, with Lois Lane as the voice of faith.

Re: Third time's the charm...prior to Superman, Siegel and Shuster had created a musketeer hero called Henri Duvall and Doctor Occult. I seem to remember that Slam Bradley was around the same time, but maybe he came after Superman.

The Kandorians move off to avoid contaminating Earth culture (in contrast to Bar-El and Lilo) but Superman ensures there will be some heroes left in his wake; the Kandorian Emergency Corps super-doctors are a new kind of super-hero. It's an interesting contradiction (avoid Earth but solve their health problems) that reflects back on the essential conflict in Superman's approach (cross-ref with Bar-El and the "soft wee scientist's son" remark).

The Superman Dynasty is both vast and multi-tiered. I wonder if the Superman Squad of the future includes any Kandorian Micro-Supers. Makes me think of Nanoman and Minimiss, obviously. But also the M'onelves from the Legion One Million books.

Love the inclusion of Byrne-era Kryptonian clothes in the council scene in Kandor. And, of course, the benevolent super-eyes watching over Vann-Zee and Sylva.

I'm still trying to get a hold of the actual time sequence in the story.

There's something interesting going on at the end, with the article "bequeathed" to Clark Kent. Kal is losing track of who he is, or he's finally admitting that at some point Clark Kent grew up to be Superman but Superman kept the shell of Clark around? Something's going on there besides the need to preserve his secret identity from beyond the grave.

This comic was totally uplifting and I feel really positive, oddly, even though it actually made me doubt Clark's survival in the end.
 
 
Triplets
22:14 / 27.03.08
NOT LOOKING AT REST OF THREAD.

Forbidden Planet have cocked it up again. "Everything's been pushed back a day because of the bank holiday". Do they not know I have love for Baldy's work?
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
00:41 / 28.03.08
Oooh, looks like I may have been right after all.

I just love that idea. That one of his multitude of small victories may end up being the catalyst that saves his life.

I'm rereading the series again and, wow. The detail of Quitely's art combined with the multiple levels Grant is working on is really coalescing into something outrageously fantastic. The Absolute Edition could very well result in World Peace.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
01:01 / 28.03.08
There's something there that echoes, between Superman receiving Roo Mac2's message and Lois stumbling onto awkward and frightening conversation with the Unknown Superman (whomever he may be). These distressing, forbidden conversations (or monologues, in Roo's case) that can seemingly be only half understood because of language ambiguity or the crackling, radioactive distortions of the Time Telescope...

But Superman's not drugged up, and can properly interpret the signs. Can't he?

Use of Qwewq and the Superman ideas it contained, well, more nested doll realities. There's a paper waiting to be written.

Love that Vann-Zee pronounces Quintum as though it were a Kryptonian name.

Vann-Zee doesn't have fishes like Kal-El does, his S-shield is a whale.
 
 
LDones
01:43 / 28.03.08
I was deeply moved by issue 10.

The page of Superman, death imminent, creating a world without him - our world - to see what one would be like; there is a complexity and depth and power and sadness there about faith and aging and family and mortality that is really moving to me.

The resonance of Qwewq from Morrison's whole body of DC superhero work since Rock of Ages as our world - struggling to make it by, to grow up - and those panels of our sickly Earth trying to invent a caring ultra-patriarch in the absence of one... ASS just continues tying together the themes of Morrison's whole body of work into something poignant and cohesive. Mythic and human and keenly aware of the transience and loss and beauty of the lives we get as people.

It's great entertainment. Great fiction.
 
 
FinderWolf
02:11 / 28.03.08
>> the real world" being inside Qwewq; something that has the side-efect of putting the mainstream DC continuity inside the comic books of Earth-Q; making the "official" DCU versions of these characters flawed (by continuity? by crap writing?) reflections of the bigger and more iconic, more pure A*S universe; thus making the "All-Star" Superman is the REAL Superman.

Yes, quite a cosmology Grant has created here with Qwewq - which also stretches back to the first appearnce of Nebula Man back in JLA #199 or whenever it was.

I dug the Byrne-Kryptonian apparel inclusion, too - fit perfectly in there with the Kandorians.

Where was Lois at the end? In her apt.? In Clark's/Supes' apt.? Whose laptop is she discovering that story/article on? Is she at the offices of the Daily Bugle? I was confused by this.
 
 
FinderWolf
02:15 / 28.03.08
>> Also, is just me or this "Superman creates Earth-Q / Earth-Q creates Superman character" equation smells like a Gnostic thing? I'm thinking: Superman = God, Earth-Q = Sophia, the Superman character in Earth-Q comics = Demiurge.

And Sophia can then be Sophie/Promethea from Alan Moore's famous ABC work! (ok, I know, REALLY reaching.)

The Kandor Emergency Corps - right in line with Morrison's vision, starting back in his first X-Men issue, of Superheroes as, essentially, rescue teams, like super-EMT's.
 
 
FinderWolf
02:16 / 28.03.08
>> The Absolute Edition could very well result in World Peace.

Hear hear.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
02:47 / 28.03.08
FW: Where was Lois at the end? In her apt.? In Clark's/Supes' apt.? Whose laptop is she discovering that story/article on? Is she at the offices of the Daily Bugle? I was confused by this.

I would imagine -- based on their brief encounter in this issue -- that Lois is at her place, and Superman has emailed a copy of that final article to her, with Clark's byline, so that she can deliver it to the Daily Planet in his stead while he (presumably) goes off to fight and maybe die up against Solaris or whatever the eleventh issue has in store for us.

It's a clever jab at Lois from #1, from before she knows who Superman "really" is, or who Clark "really" is. She writes the Superman headlines before they happen. He's not dead yet. He bequeathes the headline of the century to Clark, because of what Clark as a concept meant to him (again, something uncomfortable or weird is happening with the idea of Clark -- Superman feels more dominant as personas go), and a little nod to the rivalry that the pair have always had over stories.

Which isn't to say it's a mean-spirited jab (on Superman's part), but just that it feels like GM is consciously recalling that first Lois scene.
 
 
Spaniel
08:25 / 28.03.08
Forbidden Planet have cocked it up again. "Everything's been pushed back a day because of the bank holiday". Do they not know I have love for Baldy's work?
Triplets

That's not FP that's what happens every time a bank holiday rolls around. IT'S A NATIONAL PROBLEM!
 
 
Abraxas
10:05 / 28.03.08
@CameronStewart

Maybe N-Time Gr8tngs could be translated as the brand name In-Time Greetings (remember 'N Sync, anyone?) which would make sense as you'd certainly wish for your greetings to arrive in time when addressing somebody via any given medium.


Question about the Earth Q timeline, though. I think it's fair to assume that this is referring to the idea "If the history of the universe would have taken place in just one day then the history of humanity would merely take up 5 minutes (or something even less)". But then I do have a problem with the Friedrich Nietzsche/Jerry Siegel-Joe Shuster time dates which are given as 11:59:59:996 PM/11:59:59:002016 PM respectively. I'm fairly certain that Siegel and Shuster created Superman way after Nietzsche wrote "Also sprach Zarathustra". Or am I simply missing something obvious?
 
 
The Natural Way
12:05 / 28.03.08
Page 1, boys. Fucking page 1. My sniffles start right there. The kids. The hospital. The sheer, outright love that informs everything Superman does. All Star Superman may be, pound for pound, the best comic Grant's written. Absolutely superb. Even topped the Smallville issue, and that's saying something. I can't wait to read it for the 2nd time.

This is why I don't read crap like New Avengers and why Mark Millar can sod off with his Superheroes-in-the-real-world (read: on the telly) bollocks.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:14 / 28.03.08
A realization I had recently: Superman = Jimmy Stewart's characters in IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE and/or MR. SMITH GOES TO WASHINGTON... without, to some degree, the hints of darkness in those characters.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
16:57 / 28.03.08
I don't know. I'm seeing plenty of darkness under that bright red cape...the writing of the will in particular, and his encounter with Lois. He's tinged with regret as much as he's trying to accomplish anything and everything.
 
 
The Natural Way
18:13 / 28.03.08
Take a look at that aerial shot of the Kandorian council building! It's a thin panel, but it's really vertiginous when you actually grasp the sheer scale of the city FQ's designed. It's bloody enormous. And the outlying farmland really, really sells it. Totally awesome.
 
 
iamus
19:47 / 28.03.08
That panel's a half and half effort. The panel descriptio in the script is a four-page screed of Moore-esque proportions, meticulously described in painful detail. It's the genius of FQ that compresses it all into such a small place, without loosing any detail or clarity.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
20:45 / 28.03.08
=O

need... script... now...

also: nano-Kandorians flying off Supes' hand goes back to the silver age idea GM mentioned way before the series started about the tiny Supermen shot being from an impotent Supes' hand.

what an amazing issue [that read like 48 pages-long]. Emotional Science Fiction at its best, an incredible human story. Superman as a dying God, infusing his Concept into a godless\heroless universe through art.

it's the hypersygil again, and the good feeling you guys had after reading this is not random. that goth girl is all of us when miserable. this shit is about Hope.

and did you guys read one of the most recent GM interviews with a spoiler about how Luthor vs Supes final showdown will take place? there's a hint to that in this issue, i think.

i'm of the mind Quintum will be either used by Luthor for this or will ultimately and consciously betray Supes. it's the most human tracts that serve as Supes' strongest weakness. hope i'm wrong, somehow.
 
 
The Natural Way
21:18 / 28.03.08
I don't know if you have, but it might be worth checking Paper's post at the top of this page for at least one very good reason why you should be wrong about this.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:23 / 28.03.08
For Superman to win -- regardless of whether or not he lives, and the two are separate scenarios -- I think his faith in humanity has to be justified. I actually think the real win would be Luthor using his brain for good, but I think that would ultimately be too pat and pretty-pretty to really work in a meaningful way and not feel like a contrived "heart of gold" resolution. But yeah, Kal's trust in Quintum has to be rewarded.

Upthread there was talk about whether Lois or Clark were the unstoppable force or immovable object, but with Number Ten, I think it's more like--

Clark=Trust
Lois=Faith

Particularly in their scene together in the issue, Lois has faith that they'll find a way to save him and have children. I've never thought of Lois as a mother figure in any way -- even with the mainstream "Chris Kent" bollocks, they never manage to sell me on Lois as Mommy. But that scene managed to express that having children might be something Lois might want to do. Maybe. After at least three more Pulitzer Prizes.

I really love what Lois Lane has evolved into, as far as pop cultural characters go. She isn't the Silver Age shrew anymore, and this Lois in particular is such a crusader! And she has faith that these problems can be solved.

H3ct0r: also: nano-Kandorians flying off Supes' hand goes back to the silver age idea GM mentioned way before the series started about the tiny Supermen shot being from an impotent Supes' hand.

Holy--! I hadn't even picked up on it, but yes.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
22:33 / 28.03.08
on the same day ASS #10 arrived...

siegel's heirs awarded superman copyright
 
 
FinderWolf
23:08 / 28.03.08
>> It doesn't resolve all the issues--for example, this does not address the Superboy issue, which is a separate case. However, it does award the heirs copyright in the Superman material in Action Comics number 1 [and only in that issue, not in any Superman work thereafter] (the judge uses the term "Vol. 1", but that's only a reference to the first issue.).

Weird... and quite astonishing. Why has this NOT been all over the comics news pages/blogs and such...?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:28 / 28.03.08
I haven't always got along with this series (it's never been bad, so much as not to my taste) but when it's good, as in the Jimmy Olsen issue and this one in particular, it's really, really good.
 
 
FinderWolf
23:29 / 28.03.08
oh, duh... that Superman rights news story just popped up on lots of comics blogs and news sites and such. Disregard my comment, please... move along, nothing to see here. Back to talking about how wonderful All-Star Supes #10 was...
 
 
Chew On Fat
10:14 / 01.04.08
From Finderwolf:

("Third time's the charm"...? is there a historical bit about the artist - I think Shuster was the artist, right? - taking 2 unsuccesful tries at designing the character before he did the 3rd?)


I think '3rd time's the charm' refers to the fact that Siegel and Schuster had worked on a 'Superman' character twice before , trying to make their fortunes. In 1933 they self-published a story illustrated by Schuster called 'Reign of the Super-Man,' where the main character wants to dominate the world.

According to Siegel, they then worked up a character we would recognise as Superman in the same year, 5 years before he was published. So the two guys working on the character in A*S were dusting off the idea for the third time in 1938.

Although this is the currently accepted version, Gerard Jones disputes it in his excellent Men of Tomorrow: Geeks Gangsters and the birth of the Comic Book

He contends that they created our Superman much closer to 1938, but that Siegel stretched it back to 1933 to strengthen his rights to the character. He wanted to do away with any idea that he was working for National Periodicals when he and Schuster created him.

I'd heartily recommend Jones' book to anyone interested in the true-life origins of the Man of Steel. He's particularily strong on how the creators' background as first generation Jewish Americans might have fed into early Superhero comics. And the 'Gangsters' connection isn't just hyperbole for the snappy title.

There's oblique references to Superman as a father figure and one section makes the much-repeated image of bullets bouncing off Kal-El's chest very poignant indeed.

Link to The Reign of the Super-man wiki entry
 
 
Logos
20:51 / 01.04.08
>>Speaking of Qwewq (or "Earth Q" in a tip of the hat to DC's "Earth [Fill In The Blank w/a Number or Initial routine], anyone know who the religious speaker is in what appears to be Rome or Germany? My guess was Martin Luther (isn't he around 1600 or something) but my time period/history could be waaay off, not having consulted a history book/wikipedia yet.

The guy giving the religious speech is Giovanni Pico della Mirandola, giving the Oration on the Dignity of Man in (I think) Florence.
 
  

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