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Infinite Crisis

 
  

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Aertho
18:21 / 26.01.06
I thinks it's a shame really. The Boy "died" after realizing that his actions were inherently destructive, and quickly became psychotic. If Anti-Monitor jumps in his body, it can always be retconned that Superboy was never responsible for those destructive acts, and he can come out of it alive and "redemptive". Boooring. Can't he just be a trajedy and footnote?
 
 
FinderWolf
18:24 / 26.01.06
I'll say this, that was certainly unexpected (this next step w/ Superboy Prime in the mini).
 
 
FinderWolf
18:28 / 26.01.06
So last we see Superboy Prime, he's been pulled into the Speed Force to stop his mad rampage. And then the Speed Force is no more when Luthor merges the Earths (or whatever he does with them).

Maybe the Anti-Monitor's consciousness finds Superboy's mind & body floating around in space right after it's been 'spit' out of the non-existent Speed Force?

Will the new Flash series open with no speed force in existence? If so, how will the Flash get his speed? (I'm betting on the speed force regaining its juice by 8C #7)
 
 
Aertho
18:42 / 26.01.06
And then the Speed Force is no more when Luthor merges the Earths (or whatever he does with them)

Is that the implication that the Speed Force is a manifestation of a single universe, and that the division into a multiverse results in... something else? That whole sequence reminded me of the time Barry, Wally, Kal-L and Kal-El used the cosmic treadmill to cross the dimensional barrier and found nothing outside... perhaps that was the Speed Force they found instead? Is the Speed Force similar to the Bleed, in that it exists either around the universe, or between the planes of the multiverse?
 
 
FinderWolf
20:03 / 26.01.06
from Kurt Busiek's interview today on what he plans to do with the monthly Superman book:

>> So with the finer details covered, it was time to talk turkey. And while Busiek was understandably reluctant to talk in specifics six months and a whole eight-part preceding story arc in advance, he did give readers a general idea of this Superman mindset…

>> ”New villains. Returning villains. A new role for Lana Lang. Pericles Hazard. Camelot Falls. Outer space. Paragon. New realms to conquer for a certain bald-headed master criminal. Friends from the past, menaces buried for decades, catalysts in the present from decades ago. Jimmy Olsen's Blues. Krypto. The problem of Smallville. The Science Police. The Galactic Golem. The strangest object in the universe. When he was a boy. A day that may or may not ever happen. Pete Ross's post-White House career. Time-traveling tourists and gorilla underclassmen. The bubble city of Metropolis. The Envoy. Maxima. Amalak. The secrets of Lexcorp. Subjekt-17. A shattered Earth. Two new Metropolis-based heroes, for very different reasons. Brainiac. Khyber. Omni-fi. Superman's true home. Romance, action, mystery, suspense, science fiction, sorcery, and a pie in the face.

>> ”For a start.”

Sounds like more of a Silver meets Modern Age sensibility a la Morrison's All-Star Supes. Busiek might be the first guy in years to make the monthly Superman book really work. Should be fun to see.

Oh, and they already have backup artists planned since they all know Carlos Pacheco can't and won't draw 12 issues in the course of a year.
 
 
the Fool
23:38 / 26.01.06
I could just tell Superboy Prime was being setup for villian status. Even though I thought it was genuinely sad how his anger played out (and his horror at his own actions), I thought it was a marvelous way to create a truly evil villian - Anti-superman!!! (plus with that SBP figure spoiler it seems I was right) He does say as he is dragged into the speed force "DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND, I GROW UP TO BE SUPERMAN!" - scary... Hopefully he won't be redeemed, just as I hope Jason Todd won't be redeemed. I think SBP would make an excellent recurring villian.
 
 
X-Himy
23:48 / 26.01.06
Is that the reverse of some Legion concept I remember hearing about? Where the young legion would fight evil, adult versions of themselves, and then hand them over to their good, adult versions. I last saw it in Loeb's excreble Superman and Batman
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
03:34 / 27.01.06
"DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND, I GROW UP TO BE SUPERMAN!"

What I liked about that (and the way I saw it, actually) was that it just voiced the main conceit of the purpose of a Superboy, even though it's something that is rarely ever touched on when dealing with any version of the character. Fundamentally, that's what he's supposed to do. It was the perfect note to leave on.
 
 
ZF!
11:50 / 27.01.06
If Anti-Monitor jumps in his body...

Just wondering, Anti-Monitor, was just an energy being non? Was he actually rendered into heat at some point in COIE? Don't remember, nor have books to hand.

Just wondering how he'll come back and inhabit SBP? If that is what is going to happen.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:18 / 27.01.06
>> DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND, I GROW UP TO BE SUPERMAN!" - scary...

I agree...it was like a childish, freakish tantrum from a kid who you just know is going to be evil for the rest of his life...totally having gone over the edge.

I also agree that SBP should be a recurring villain now.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:20 / 27.01.06
>> where the young legion would fight evil, adult versions of themselves, and then hand them over to their good, adult versions.

I was just re-reading the final Alan Moore/Curt Swan/George Perez Superman story "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" and the evil adult Legion trio is in this (and of course the story is all pre-Crisis stuff), so they must have existed pre-Crisis. Cosmic King was the adult Cosmic Boy, Saturn Woman I think...don't remember the Lightning adult evil version.
 
 
Aertho
13:30 / 27.01.06
Lightning Lord.

That was the last issue I think. Superman walks into a gold room, and "dies". End of story shows a toddler with the peculiar ability to rub coal into diamond. I read that when I was too young to understand anything, and somehow led myself to believe that Superman magically turned himself into a baby, rather than simply wear a mustache.

 
 
FinderWolf
21:26 / 27.01.06
magically turned himself into a baby...I love it.

Re-reading it recently, I found the story just as emotionally affecting today as when I first read it when it came out...it's like Moore put in all the dark, grim'n' gritty brutal stuff that was happening in that era of comics, and then gave Superman a happy ending anyway despite all the death and destruction.
 
 
Simplist
21:50 / 27.01.06
And then the Speed Force is no more when Luthor merges the Earths (or whatever he does with them)

Is that the implication that the Speed Force is a manifestation of a single universe, and that the division into a multiverse results in... something else?


I thought it was pretty clear that the loss of the speed force resulted from whatever it was the Flashes did -- Kid Flash pushed SbP through the final barrier and dissappeared, then Jay immediately reappeared in the rubble and announced that the speed force was gone. The splitting of the Earths didn't happen until several pages later.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:39 / 28.01.06
oh, and Batgirl died. In her own comic, last week...killed by some goon. Shiva was pissed, since Batgirl had held her own against Shiva, all honorable and stuff. This is the Cassandra Cain Batgirl we're talking about here... thereby leaving the mantle of Batgirl to be taken up by someone new, perhaps, ONE YEAR LATER (da-da-dummmm!!!).

Spoilers, but I don't think anyone here cared about Batgirl dying or even noticed. I don't really care either but thought I'd inform you all of this MAJOR SHOCK IN THE DCU!!!! This way Batman can add another death of a partner in the Bat-family to his list of woes.
 
 
X-Himy
14:04 / 28.01.06
Damn, I actually liked this Batgirl, and thought that the comic was a pretty good read.
 
 
Mario
16:32 / 28.01.06
The fact that there's one more issue of the Batgirl title suggests that there may be more going on than simple death.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:01 / 30.01.06
Hoom. I really tried to see the good in this, but so much of it was really quite poor. Part of this is probably because it's trying to cover so much ground - so you have a couple of pages on the Spectre, a couple of (near-incomprehensible) pages on Donna Troi's space adventures (I don't know a huge amount about Firestorm, but the storytelling on this bit was really odd), and then the main storyline, which rumbled along but was disrupted slightly by the massive detour where Superboy disappears off to beat up Superboy, for no particular reason. This developing into a geat big fight scene, which follows the Geoff Johns tradition of killing off E-listers to show how high the stakes are, which is slightly reduced in impact when nobody but Geoff Johns knows who they are. The finale also made little sense to me. Again, this may just be somethign I'm missing, but why did the Flashes all get together to stop him, how did they do it beyond "pushing him into the speed force", and why was that a satisfying narative conclusion (at least for now) to the Superboy arc? Always nice to see Barry Allen again, but it felt rushed (aptly) and throwaway.

So, no. I'm still waiting for this one to coalesce into something decent. At the moment it feels simultaneously incredibly rushed (the exposition of Alex Luthor!) and achingly slow.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:29 / 30.01.06
Chemo being dropped on Bludhaven has given us a 9/11-style Superman comic written by Greg Rucka (which feels like JMS' 9/11 Spider-Man issue) and will result in a retread of "No Man's Land" for Bludhaven for a while. I felt kind of 'meh' about this whole 'Chemo nukes Bludhaven!' thing.
 
 
FreakWolf
17:11 / 30.01.06
Personally I thought that Superboy Prime's dismissal was fantastic. I just loved how they portrayed him as almost throwing a tantrum just as he disappeared. Like he was being punished and his response is "But I am supposed to grow up to be Superman!" Almost like "You can't do this to me. I'm going to be Superman someday!" Great writing. But as a whole since I don't read any of the tie in books for 8C I rarely know what much else is going on. I get it. Superboy Prime and Alexander Luthor = Bad. Earth 2 Superman = Bad but thinks he's good. I think I am more excited for the 52 series and maybe Batman after all this is over.
 
 
Kirk Ultra
17:11 / 30.01.06
At least Bludhaven's gone now though. I always hated that place.
 
 
Mario
17:15 / 30.01.06
You'd think someone would have changed the city's name:

"Welcome to Bludhaven: We aren't _that_ goth..."
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
20:48 / 30.01.06
One question: Why did the Flashes have to push SBP into the Speed Force? Surely there are psychics/magicians in that milieu who could have incapacitated him, maybe Kryptonite would have worked (although I doubt it). And doesn't pushing him into the Speed Force kinda kill him? Or not? What're the rules for this kind of thing?
I know the whole thing was designed to shake up the Flash franchise, by taking Wally and Bart out of the game and depowering Jay, but it could have seemed a little more natural.
 
 
This Sunday
20:55 / 30.01.06
Superboy should be vulnerable to magick, I'd presume, just like Superman. Out of the Titans though, who's really a magick-user - and there? Donna could be all godly and whup him, which I'd like to've seen, but she's gone.
 
 
waxy dan
12:09 / 31.01.06
Sorry if this is mentioned further back in this thread; I couldn't spot it.

Wasn't the idea that Superboy Prime, rather than suddenly turning psycho, honestly didn't mean to cause such damage? That, in his world: a truly better place, his actions wouldn’t have resulted in the same carnage? A cartoony punch and laser-eye would have knocked some over; not knocked their heads off.

I read it as being that, simply by being here in Earth One, he was being “ruined” and corrupted.
 
 
Aertho
12:15 / 31.01.06
That's exaclty as I read it, dan.

But to believe that planet-moving superstrength and laser heat vision doesn't cause human damage is psychotic. But that's the point. Physics and Psychology work different in different worlds. Fer instance: drop Paris Hilton in the Australian Outback, and she's quickly considered batshit.

Post-Crisis Earth comes with a more realisitic sense of consequence, and heightened responsibility... both things that the Golden Age Earth and Superboy's "Earth Prime" never dealt with - because it never had to.
 
 
Mario
12:21 / 31.01.06
Remember, too, that he's really inexperienced. He was in a total of two fights before he entered the Alexverse, and the second was an uber-cosmic menace. He may literally not know his own strength.
 
 
waxy dan
12:29 / 31.01.06
Thanks Chad; I'm not alone and mad so.

I really really really liked as as such. He may be an immature child; but he's honestly and sincerely a hero. But the world has changed about him and that's not his doing.

I think that elevates the fight scene about a "which e-lister will we knock off" into something genuinely tragic and moving to read.
 
 
Aertho
12:33 / 31.01.06
I like that SBP knocked off the saddest and most 90s-ish Titans of the attack squad.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:02 / 31.01.06
You all are deluding yourselves; stop making excuses for SBP!! He's EEEEVIL!!!! EVIL, I say!

Seriously, though, I think he's tinged with self-righteous arrogance; there's a bit of evil there (enough misguided intentions and arrogance having built up to some genuine evil). I don't fully excuse his behavior. (Not like he's a real character or anything of course) At the very least he deserves a major time-out.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:23 / 12.02.06
Rucka on the new Checkmate series post-IC:

>> Rucka then outlined the characters from the cover of issue #1. The Black Queen is Sasha Bordeaux, the White Queen is Amanda Waller, Fire is the Black Queen’s knight, and the White King behind the podium is … wait for it …Alan Scott.

”This book is going get you in the head and get you in the gut”.

At that point Johns leaned over to Rucka and after exchanging a few words, Rucka asked, “Do you want me to say it”, Johns nodded, and Rucka said, “And the Suicide Squad is in it.”
 
 
FinderWolf
16:12 / 12.02.06
from Newsarama's coverage of 52 and IC:

>> When answering a question about what, editorially, the goal of Crisis is in an editorial sense, rather than a storytelling sense, [Mark] Waid said that Infinite Crisis doesn’t have to do with specifically fixing anything that’s ‘wrong,’ rather, everything moves in cycles. As the writer further explained, DC books have become darker and grittier over the last few years, and Crisis is a means of bringing things back a little. The bottom line of the DCU, Waid explained, is that the characters of the DCU like each other, and Crisis allows for the chance to get back to that feeling or camaraderie, not a "Silver Age shininess", Waid continued, but rather a sense of balance. The heroes of the DCU are the firemen and policemen of the DCU, and both Crisis and 52 are a chance to reaffirm that notion.

>> Morrison said that this is something that the DC Universe does every 20 years or so, that is, taking everything that has happened in the intervening time and move forward. As Morrison said, this approach leads to some very good stories as the entire universe takes a step forward.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:14 / 12.02.06
also...

>> Continuing on the thread about how the stories will be told in the DCU following Crisis, Morrison said that, in his view, the DC Universe is a virtual reality – its own world with its own rules, and people who live there that is as real as ours. With that in mind, Morrison said, you can’t go into the DCU and “smash things up,” but rather are constrained by the fact that these are real people and real characters, and, as a creator, you can’t make them not them. Rather than finding this a hindrance, Morrison said, he finds it a fascinating way to write – telling the stories about people he sees, as real, rather than fictional constructs that can be bent and twisted at any whim, and made to act in ways they would never act. To put a point on his view, Morrison said that, as he sees it, the DCU is a planet and we are observers. The work of the creators in Countdown through Infinite Crisis and 52, Morrison said, has been to increase the focus by which we view it – sharpening the image to a degree that hasn’t been seen before, allowing clear views of characters as well as their larger world.

>> Agreeing with Morrison, and giving his own example, Rucka compared their work to the Google Earth application, saying that when you look at the DCU, just like when you look at locations on Earth with Google Earth, some areas come into crisp, sharp focus, with others are still out of focus. That’s one of the jobs of 52, Rucka said – to pull out the details of the DCU for everyone to see.

>> Finishing the line of thought, Morrison said that rather than telling people what stories they should write with the characters of the DCU, they’ve come more to have a relationship with other creators of pointing out new areas or areas that have been recently “focused in” on asking if the creators have noticed certain elements that might not have been clearly seen before.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:16 / 12.02.06
also:

>> Still speaking on the “heroism” of the characters, Morrison added that, in his view, the DCU is not using Crisis and 52 to go back to the Silver Age shininess of days gone by, but rather, is using the stories to turn up the contrast in the DCU, to make the dark that much darker, and the heroes really, really good.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:23 / 12.02.06
oh, and Geoff Johns said Wally West is not dead after Infinite Crisis. Interesting. So maybe he's just chilling out in some dimension of the speed force for a while, even though the speed force has left our reality for the moment...?

>> Asked how – or it - readers will be able to justify the events of Superman: Birthright with Superman: Man of Steel, Johns replied, “Crisis #6.”

Also interesting...maybe just a Multiverse/Hypertime sort of thing.
 
  

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