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Papess

14:02 / 09.11.06

it's someone for whom everything is for sale—a far more damning accusation, in my book.

True. I always felt that way about health care, but I am a Canadian, after all. Oh well, people have to eat.

Ticker

14:36 / 09.11.06

I like profiteer for that. Two faced lying profiteer feels really good to yell at someone.
Yeah I'm a simple creature I do figurative things literally sometimes.

Papess

15:02 / 09.11.06

Surely there is nothing insulting about wanting to make a profit. However, "Two faced lying profiteer", does not describe sex work or sex workers. However, if sex workers are put in untennable situations, they may very well resort to such behavior.

Just a thought but: If a person can't afford sexual services they can use their hand. If people can't afford medical treatment, they die unnecessarily. I don't understand a value system that can justify profiting from human suffering, but will condemn people from profiting from giving other people pleasure.

Ticker

15:11 / 09.11.06

not to get all sideways on you but I believe profit is inherently evil. I believe asking for the fair value of your work/creativity/efforts is honorable but sticking a 'bonus' fee on top of it is fucked up.

If I get you an apple from the store and charge you for the apple and my time that isn't profit that's fair value. If I stick 5%-100% mark up on the item and service just because I can it's, IMO, evil.

so a profiteer - one who makes excessive profit - is a nasty nasty thing in my mind.

Papess

15:15 / 09.11.06

...not to get all sideways on you but I believe profit is inherently evil

So true. Unfortunately, it is the way most economic systems work.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:19 / 09.11.06

Well, also - how does one judge how much the time of a sex worker is worth? Ultimately, the sex worker makes a judgement of the value of their service. If the recipient is happy to pay that, in what sense is it not fair trade?

Ticker

15:30 / 09.11.06

I'm not poking at sex workers I believe I was spinning off of the statement about 'anything for sale'.

Yes I think any craft person, artist, office worker, manager, farmer, etc can set a fair price on their work. To me a profiteer is someone who then knowingly increases the price above that for no other reason than they can.

so to me profiteer is a much more fitting insult for 'anything for sale/nothing sacred/no personal honor' than whore who could in fact be charging fair vaue for something they do value and is a skill and does benefit society.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:35 / 09.11.06

I stand corrected. However, I'm not sure one can quite say:

Whore is about (as an insult not the profession) a disease bearing unscrupulous liar and desecrater of sacred things.

I mean, disease bearing? That's too close to the insults and abuse levelled at the profession for comfort, to be honest. I think it's possible to use the term as Jack Fear stipulates, but one has to be careful about usage. Compare Shadowsax describing a sex worker as an "attention whore"...

Ticker

15:39 / 09.11.06

So true. Unfortunately, it is the way most economic systems work.

I dunno as I do business with people all the time who charge what the goods and services are worth and don't slap a increase on it just 'cause. Sure big business does it as a matter of course but I don't believe economic systems have to function with profit in this sense.

materials + time + skill = fair cost
fair cost + increase = profit

I maybe using the wrong terms for this sort of thing as I'm looking at it from way down here and not a trained economic view point.

Ticker

15:46 / 09.11.06

I mean, disease bearing? That's too close to the insults and abuse levelled at the profession for comfort, to be honest. I think it's possible to use the term as Jack Fear stipulates, but one has to be careful about usage. Compare Shadowsax describing a sex worker as an "attention whore"...

I should say when I am called a whore or hear some when called a whore I don't unpack it to mean they are being called a literal sex worker but rather these cultural tags, which are associated with the negative aspects of the sterotype, are being applied.

so to call someone a whore is not specificly to mean 'I think you are a sex worker' but rather to say 'I think you posses these negative traits". These sterotypical traits I do think include disease bearing.

Olulabelle

15:50 / 09.11.06

I think you're right with that definition, which would mean that almost any successful company can be said to be profiteering. And any artists that sell well, or have become desirable. Is there a cost that can be factored in for desirability or would creating something with a desirability count as profiteering?

Ticker

15:55 / 09.11.06

Lula, I think that's where first come first served comes into play.
If you set the price as the creator for your time/effort and so on and stick to it you should feel pride in selling it for a fair value.

If someone can't afford your price perhaps that means they have to purchase a lesser item from someone with less skill.

So a good or service from a master level creator/service provider would be more expensive than from some one brand new in the field.

the trick to it is knowing the people, knowing your community of fellow crafts people, and having pride in the honest exchange. Now sadly that is quite rare.

Papess

15:56 / 09.11.06

materials + time + skill = fair cost

Right. However, if we equate an unscrupulous profiteer with whore and that also with sex workers, then there is a problem.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:06 / 09.11.06

And also if we associate "whore" with "having the qualities often used in abuse of sex workers" - like disease-ridden, I think.

Papess

16:32 / 09.11.06

Indeed, Haus. Of course, there is also the fact that quite a lot of sex workers undervalue themselves all around the world. There are a lot of cases where "whores" are just trying to survive and support their families. There is just an incredible amount of misconception about sex workers.

I have heard abolishtionists claim that "...sex work is not real work at all...". This is horsepoop, too. I wonder if they climbed on top of an obese man who has a serious kink for klismaphilia or asphyxiophilia and tell me that is not work.

Ticker

17:24 / 09.11.06

well and and let's not forget the male sex workers and the underage sex workers and the exploited forced by poverty sex workers. It gets into layers rather quickly.

For my part rather than call a person of low morals a term which brings to mind the sex industry I'd rather just call them what they are, a liar, a thief, a big pile of waste takin' up space.

poohead and fishstick work in the right moments too.

Papess

17:49 / 09.11.06

For my part rather than call a person of low morals a term which brings to mind the sex industry I'd rather just call them what they are...

Name it to claim it. Exactly. Lovely hashing that out with ya, xk. I am not so barbe-annoyed about this anymore but I am feeling like I may need to visit the miserable thread for bit.

petunia

18:12 / 09.11.06

'Fishstick' merges phonetically into 'fishdick' rather well...

Fucking fishdick.

Klesmerphilia?

I don't understand...a love of Jewish music? What has that to do with fishdicks?

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:02 / 09.11.06

There's a response to that involving the great circumcision before the entry into the promised land, but I can't. I just can't.

Papess

09:58 / 10.11.06

Klismaphilia (sometimes spelled Klysmaphilia) is the paraphilia of deriving sexual pleasure from enemas. Some practitioners in the sex industry offer enemas to cater to klismaphiliac desires. It is sometimes regarded as a form of anal masturbation. There are many movies, magazines and websites devoted specifically to this fetish. The term was coined in 1973 by Dr. Joanne Denko.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:14 / 10.11.06

Yeah, Electrix, I know. Klesmerphilia's more fun to think about, though. Well, you know, depending on taste.

Papess

11:18 / 10.11.06

Pardon me, Haus. I thought you were either asking a question or correcting me. Most likely, I thought, it was the latter.

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:00 / 10.11.06

Ah - I do apologise. I was attempting to make a joke. Rather ineptly, as it turns out.

Papess

14:59 / 10.11.06

Bad Haus! That was much too pleasant an exchange for this thread.

Triplets

00:42 / 14.11.06

(actually, she is obsessed with anything mini.)

*Struggles not to make 'Like your cock' comment*

_FAILS_

*struggles not to make a "what a cock" comment*

etc

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:35 / 13.12.06

After a certain amount of time here, and if one is blessed with a modicum of wit, you can see the point at which a thread has been killed or, worse, the point after which it will beg for death. Much like the coming of Galactus, the chances of the local heroes being able to stop it are impossibly small, and yet some brave fool always tries.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:01 / 14.12.06

Which thread is this?

Mistoffelees

15:20 / 14.12.06

Probably the Goth Toilet thread.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:31 / 14.12.06

Haven't even been reading it. Recently, the Keffiyeh and Richard Dawkins.

Closed for Business Time

15:44 / 14.12.06

Annoyed with my non-presence in the "Pandora's hope" thread. [Internal whispers] I've read the bloody thing... Come on, man, you can do it! Type! Hit! Post! Arrrhhhh...

Jack Fear

15:53 / 14.12.06

Shit, I'm really regretting posting to the Dawkins thread just now, before reading this. And I'll wager you're regretting it, too.

jentacular dreams

17:09 / 14.12.06

I'm regretting clicking on the long article you linked to. It's late already and I've got lots more to do before I can go home.

Maybe tomorrow....

nighthawk

17:43 / 14.12.06

What in particular bothers people about the direction the Dawkins thread is taking? Just interested...

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