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Tsuga
14:45 / 10.02.07
I’d be happy to try, Disco- though it’s something I’ve noticed many places around the board rather than one specific instance. I first mentioned it after reading the post above in this thread, by Ganesh. And I find nothing wrong with that post, other than this issue. I think Ganesh kicks ass, personally.
Really, I’d rather not poke this with a stick too much, because I’m much more happy that this is a place where people give a shit about addressing prejudice in the first place than I am bothered by it. I think the language may be important, though. So I will put together some links, I think I may actually have some time today, because you deserve to have your questions answered, as best I can.
 
 
Tsuga
17:51 / 10.02.07
Okay, moved this over to Feminism 101, carry on.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
02:49 / 13.02.07
I'm a little barbannoyed at myself tonight. Reading a thread and having a thought, wanting to type it out and -- locking up? Blanking out? Feeling unsure if what I have to say is just mindless "me too"-ism or unhelpful in some way? Bah.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:39 / 13.02.07
FzzztraggghhhURGGHHJOKETHREAD!!!
 
 
Quantum
09:42 / 13.02.07
I don't think 'annoy' quite covers it.
 
 
Spaniel
11:29 / 13.02.07
But... but... it's so funny.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
13:22 / 13.02.07
It's absolutely infuriating. "Blonde woman" is a redundant expression, damnit, one is either blonde, in which case one is* a woman, or blond, in which case one is a man. Grr.

*or, at the least, is implied to be.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:48 / 13.02.07
Feigned idiocy concealing actual idiocy. Annoying or just depressing? You decide!
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
15:21 / 13.02.07
Pardon?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:23 / 13.02.07
Feigned deafness concealing... ah.

You decide anyway!
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
15:42 / 13.02.07
Ah, so you were making a needless personal attack?

Gosh. Ain't that a surprise.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:33 / 13.02.07
Basically, Kay, I was hacked off by that because what is going on in the jokes thread is really quite serious - and it is serious in ways that don't touch you, as a man and a rather empathy-challenged man. Whereas for you, it was an opportunity to make an Gyles Brandreth little joke about how a very minor point was the annoying thing about it, rather than the very good reasons others have already advanced.

(And a joke based on false premises, since a) une femme blonde is perfectly good French, and b) the reasons for the phrase "a blonde woman", and the significance of that construction, are clear in the thread).

This is irksome for a number of reasons. Most obviously, it is irksome because it trivialises the very serious question of misogyny on Barbelith. However, it is particularly annoying coming from you, specifically, because of the contempt you have shown for attempts to address instances of prejudice on Barbelith before, and specifically prejudice on your part. It is of course particularly funny because Enamon's mindless, trolling insistence on blonde women, not blonde women mirrors your own dissembling about black artists and black artists.

I have long since despaired of getting you to show an iota of self-criticism or self-awareness - if this was ever going to happen, it would have happened by now. However, it remains the case that you have pulled off the difficult sleight-of-hand of being an unapologetic apologist for your own unexamined race-based generalisations on Barbelith.

Confronted with this, rather than consider for a moment that you might be displaying unconscious prejudice, you tried to insult, belittle, lie and sweep away with an Augean tide of horse dung the concerns of a number of people, most of whom have added more to Barbelith on the average wet Thursday than you have in your time here. Flyboy, id entity, alas, Eggs - oh, and all these other people.

So, I would say that it was entirely needful abuse, because your continued presence on Barbelith, combined with your willingness to lie, abuse people, send flurries of fatuous PMs and flounce off before returning elsewhere as if nothing had happened, seems, in the absence of that aforementioned willingness actually to stop making lists of everyone else's faults and look at yourself, to be itself abusive to what Barbelith ought to be, and at its best is.

However, the journey of a thousand yards must begin with a single step. If you'd like me to stop seeing your arrival in a thread as comparable on a hedonic level with pubic lice of the eyebrow, perhaps you could start by answering a question that you flounced off rather than confront a little over half a year ago, in response to your attempt to demonstrate your multicultural status by claiming that some of your best albums were black:

Purely as an ironic nod, to anyone who recognised them, that I am rather more versed in the interplay of black and white music than Haus keeps suggesting

I asked you then:

Actually, I don't think I ever even mentioned the interplay of black and white music. Perhaps you could point out where I kept saying that? Cheers.


Perhaps it would be a good start if you either answered that now, with links to where I had as of 13:59 on the 7th of July 2006 kept suggesting that, or you admitted that you made that shit up. From that acknowledgement may grow some form of understanding that you might have made up more shit, and from there we might be able to coax a valid and fulfilling relationship with reality slowly into that noggin o'yourn.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
17:50 / 13.02.07
Basically, Kay, I was hacked off by that because what is going on in the jokes thread is really quite serious - and it is serious in ways that don't touch you, as a man and a rather empathy-challenged man. And for, you, it was an opportunity to make an idiotic, Gyles Brandreth little joke about how a very minor point was the annoying thing about it.

Ah, gotcha. As it happens, what I really found annoying about that thread was a) that your mate Flyboy appeared to have licence to exercise his potty-mouth and b) as I more-or-less agreed with what he was saying, I didn't feel like calling him on it. Besides which, of course, I wouldn't want to get into another of these tit-for-tat rants you appear to love so well.

Your own scholarly I weed on it. With my dick. seems a little idiotic to me, but no doubt you had a cunning reason for injecting it into that really quite serious thread, hmm? Perhaps you're empathy challenged? It might explain your perpetual treatment of this discussion forum as a battlefield, after all.

(And a joke based on false premises, since a) une femme blonde is perfectly good French, and b) the reasons for the phrase "a blonde woman", and the significance of that construction, are clear in the thread).

Er, righto. Except that we're talking English, in which blonde is blonde and blond is blond.

This is irksome for a number of reasons. Most obviously, it is irksome because it trivialises the very serious question of misogyny on Barbelith.

Yes, er, well, I wouldn't want to wee on it, would I?

Anyway, congratulations on your subsequent attempt to reopen an old battle you believe ((EDIT : "to be worthwhile fighting now" )) - no doubt due to your erroneous assumption that I was attempting some sort of parallel myself, a perhaps excusable mistake from someone whose approach to the forum is so Byzantine that he has a Five Point Plan of How To Be A Cock To People (which you have the gall to rationalise as some kind of "tough love"!). Unfortunately, I've no desire to talk about it any further with you, as given your feeling (which you've made abundantly clear, even through your usual weaselspeak) that...

I have long since despaired of getting you to show an iota of self-criticism or self-awareness - if this was ever going to happen, it would have happened by now.

...there doesn't appear much point in doing so. And then you attempt to affirm that...

it remains the case that you have pulled off the difficult sleight-of-hand of being an unapologetic apologist for your own unexamined race-based generalisations on Barbelith.

...well, you're welcome to your opinion on that, but, fortunately for the board, you're not quite as important as you seem to imagine - why, one of the most useful things anyone has ever said to me here was making precisely that point - and I've spent an awful lot of time talking with people around that point, but hey. It's not like you care.

Confronted with this, rather than consider for a moment that you might be displaying unconscious prejudice, you tried to insult, belittle, lie and sweep away with an Augean tide of horse dung the concerns of a number of people, most of whom have added more to Barbelith on the average wet Thursday than you have in your time here. Flyboy, id entity, alas, Eggs - oh, and all these other people.

Good heavens, your mate Flyboy? He of you are as dumb as a lobotomised pig that's been fucked in the brains by the corpse of Robert Anton Wilson and similar gutterances (and I need scarcely mention his assertion that (paraphrased) geography and climate are unimportant to a country's economy, which I fondly remember)? Let's see more of that, please do! I'd rather see that than insults and belittling, hell yeah.

(id and alas, I'll grant you those; I'm not sure who Eggs is, although if Eggs is Pegs is Illmatic then I'll grant you them as well)

So, I would say that it was entirely needful abuse.

Yes, you would, wouldn't you?

Etc. etc. etc.

No, I'm not going to look back at posts from a year ago. I don't have and don't wish for the stamina and interest in doing so that you so abundantly possess. If I implied, all that time ago, that you'd said something you didn't actually say, then I'm sorry. You might take back some of the crap you came out with back and things you made up yourself, and if you do so, you will have my heartfelt apology. In the meantime, let's move away from that sadly unlikely possibility and on to something indisputable, and demonstrated by your every word:

You, Haus, are a hypocrite. You assume others to be playing the same games as you, and treat that as being the epitome of Wrongness. You allow your friends leeway you do not allow the people you love to be your enemies. You accuse people of crying "persecution!" - and then you - as above - wade in with no justification beyond your own erroneous belief in your wannabe do-good-by-being-a-prick programme. You claim not to instigate endless fights with people - and yet you blatantly do engage them, time and time again. (Which is not to say that you're always wrong to do so, f'sure.)

But hey. You %know% I %wanted% to get into a fight with you, 'cause you %know% I secretly have a crush on you, right? I wanted you to have a go at me, yeah? Isn't that your belief?

Huh. Forty-five minutes down the drain. On you. I know that's a mutual feeling, so how about we just call truce again, hmm? I don't really want to read your dissembling answers to any questions I've posed above; I guess you think that's a mutual feeling, too. So why don't we stop boring the nice people, hein?
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
17:54 / 13.02.07
NB, there is a minor edit to the above, after "you believe" please insert "to be worthwhile fighting".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:06 / 13.02.07
You might take back some of the crap you came out with back and things you made up yourself

One example? Oh, but of course, you won't want to go back to actually substantiate your claim about this. Because you don't need to substantiate your claim. Because you are maintained by a historical revisionism that has no need of puny fact.

Meanwhile:

Elijah: I wonder if it a genre-ist (genrephobic?) idea that is applied to rap specifically, but not, as you said, to the work of Nick Cave.

MattShepherd: The deplorable qualities of rap -- mysoginy and materialism -- are shared by a bunch of other types of music. '80s "hair metal" springs to mind. And yet I don't see anyone trotting out Poison or Slik Toxik whenever they need to say that white men with longish hair are doing a fine job of putting themselves down, culturally speaking.

Falconer: No-one ever bangs on about Slayer or Cannibal Corpse poorly representing white people, either.

id entity: If, in fact, some Black people do take on racist stereotypes... that's for Black people to discuss and respond to. I can only be responsible for my own racism... Racism will only be ended when white people stand up, act like grown adults, and take responsibility for fucking ending it, instead of whining about the big bad scary people of color and their big bad scary rap music... Point: Kay, your assertions are part of a larger social pattern of white people desperately wanting to deny any responsibility for racial injustice.

Lurid Archive: I'd like to hear you justify the claims that "some black artists produce music which portrays black people in a negative light", most particularly paying attention to your point that other (sony's) racism is a "drop in the ocean" in comparison.

I certainly recognise the stereotype, Kay, but I am sadly ignorant of hip hop, say. So I need more from you, since I'm not happy with appeals to the *obvious* correctness of your points.

Some specific artists and songs illustrating your point, with an explanation by you would do well here...

Illmatic is right, of course; quoting some dodgy lyrics isn't going to be enough. Giving a sense that there is a wide movement out there which can be criticised in the way you are doing - perpetuating negative stereotypes in a way that is much more harmful than racism - would be useful. However, starting with some lyrics, some artists and some commentary of these and how they exemplify what you are talking about would be a start.

ibis: If you're going to start a thread about "some black artists produce music which portrays black people in a negative light," maybe you want to give an indication of why you are pointing that out, what larger issues it relates to either in music, black culture, American culture, or something.

Phex: There could also be another implicit assumption at play here, that black hip-hop artists are incapable of grasping concepts like narrative and irony and generally lack the imagination to create stories or present their lyrics 'in character'

stabbystabby: [T]here's a huge difference between a massive, mostly non-black corporation using extremely racist imagery to sell their products, and a black artist talking about hir experience of black life.

Most of the music about black people at all is produced by black people. Of course the majority of the music about the negative aspects of black life is produced by black people.

Interestingly, we don't say that the majority of the negative imagery of white people is produced by white people. (i'd argue it is, even taking into account militant music produced by non-white artists) I would posit that this is because white experience is viewed as the default - that the music produced by white people is never viewed as being only about white (middle class) people. This ties into that idea that Eminem is so threatening because he shows that what is viewed as a black experience is also tied to a class experience.

If you intend only to describe, why don't you note that white musicians produce music that portrays white people in a negative light?


However, you have at least so far apparently taken my advice and managed to stop saying "Let's not worry about [issue of thread] when [dark-skinned people] are [doing something largely unrelated to the issue of the thread]. That's progress. As such, I will happily take up your question:

You allow your friends leeway you do not allow the people you love to be your enemies.

Please, find me an example of my friends peddling ignorant and racially dubious nonsense and then trying to troll their way out of it. Then we'll talk. Otherwise, perhaps the best way to maintain this imaginary truce of yours is not to try to pick fights where you will be too dim and self-regarding to note your pwnage, but which will make people around you want to end their own lives.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:12 / 13.02.07
I don't know, am I more barbannoyed that no one's moved to lock the joke thread that continues to slouch in the direction of Bethlehem, or that I *keep* looking at the joke thread even though it makes me reach for a pencil to induce graphite-mascara-eye-injury? Even with all the barbenautical gear on, helmet firmly attached, the muck is getting pretty thick and swimming's harder.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:13 / 13.02.07
The joke thread is a fascinating example of t3h RIGID REALITY TUNNELS, though, isn't it? It's like watching a very stupid car crash in slow motion, rewind, slow motion, rewind...
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:20 / 13.02.07
The sad thing is, it abruptly stopped being a joke thread and became a joke analysis thread that was actually interesting and looked at how humour can be used to other people. Only right when it was about to raise it's head and reveal a second, more beautiful face...the face fell off and the big Alien came screaming out of Sigourney's stomach and there was that second, tiny mouth reaching out to tear into soft, soft flesh and...

Whoa, I've been watching too many Ridley Scott movies.

Is it almost time for Barbelith to devour-and-transmute?
 
 
Ticker
22:25 / 13.02.07
It annoyed the piss out of me that the very interesting article I found on humor got shunted under a mound of redux stupidity.

I've been medicating with early V-Day chocolate but the Devour & Transmute request has penetrated my blissful spicy chocolate buzz. For you Papers, I will return to the fray with fang, wrench and linkage.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:51 / 13.02.07
I don't think it's going to make much sense until Enamon gets back under the bridge. Too many people are too hacked off, I think. _But_, on the plus side, JTTBFF and I got to have a nice chat.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:56 / 13.02.07
We've had the joke abou the woman with 2 black eyes, we've had teh blonde jokes, we've had appeals to RAW, we've had getting your long-absent chums to mysteriousy re-appear on a board they've showed little or no interest in for the last two or three years, we've had "but all the people complaining of sexism are men, a-HAAA!" as if that would mean anything even were it true...

There really is a conspiracy to drive me to drink, isn't there? Come on, fess up.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:58 / 13.02.07
The Joke Thread was always going to be a nightmare though, wasn't it? I'd be inclined to view the ensuing fiasco as an object lesson in how 'The Conversation' can look like the hankie that Barbelith blows it's nose on when it seems as if it's suffering from a mild dose of flu. And would rather just stay in bed, drinking.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
01:22 / 14.02.07
I got out for dinner and come back and everything's spawned more stuff again! Meanwhile, the Comics is molasses even when I want to talk about Mary Marvel's symbolism, which is a bit barbannoying but I shouldn't complain, I should post.

I've been medicating with early V-Day chocolate but the Devour & Transmute request has penetrated my blissful spicy chocolate buzz. For you Papers, I will return to the fray with fang, wrench and linkage.

Thank you for the linkage, XK. In particular, the blondes link is interesting because of that weirdly obsessive objectification impulse -- they can't just put them on pedestals, they have to look down on them at the same time. One of the strangest cognitive dissonances I've ever encountered.

The joke thread mostly proves that with Barbenauts, at least, the best comedy continues to be the spontaneous-mid-posting hilarity rather than "jokes."
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:42 / 14.02.07
"potty-mouth"? Srsly? I mean, I knew you had some old-fashioned ideas, Kay - I didn't realise you were actually defrosted recently having been frozen in 1940.

PS. Love the use of word "paraphrased" there. Love your work, man.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:46 / 14.02.07
The utter futility of arguing with the profoundly dim. That'd be what's annoying me today.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
08:06 / 14.02.07
What do you think that 'K' on his forehead stands for, Mr F? Surrender?!

(I do wonder if Mr K isn't taking a slightly unreasonable pasting at the moment, though.)
 
 
Ganesh
08:28 / 14.02.07
A large chunk of the grey forums at the moment. Generally speaking, it's the behaviour of the more established posters that's making my eyes tired and my head hot, not the newbies.

A time to stay away, I think.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
08:45 / 14.02.07
Care to be a mite more specific, Ganesh, or are you just going to let every 'old poster' within a ten mile radius of the thread wonder if you mean hir?
 
 
Ganesh
08:51 / 14.02.07
No, I can't be more specific. I'm ready to register my annoyance but not to have that particular fight - so no, I'm not naming names right now. Apologies for scattergun discomfort, obviously.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:54 / 14.02.07
I liked the "paraphrase" as well - I think the reference is to Kay's statement here. I have no idea where Flyboy's assertion that (paraphrased) geography and climate are unimportant to a country's economy, which I fondly remember) might be - Mister Disco and I comment on it, but not Flyboy as far as I can tell.

Of course, context is important, and in the context of (paraphrased)it being unwise to criticise Sony NV when [unrelated group of less Northern European people] were out there [doing something unrelated], and it being unwise to criticise the Pope when [unrelated group of less Northern European people] were [doing something unrelated], the moving of responsibility for poverty in the southern countries here from economics to weather is, contextually, rather differently flavoured.

It's common fallacy that I enjoy these discussions. On occasion, I derive a degree of satisfaction from them, if they have a positive outcome, but, as I have said, in this case I do not believe such a positive outcome is likely, even if possible. Which means that I am, and Barbelith is, kind of stuck in a VladBaptiste scenario - things has been said, negative responses have been identified as the fault of _everyone else_, and thus the right is reserved to do it again, because there is no need to look at the behaviour, because it is everyone else's fault that it was not well received.

Is this symptomatic of some deeper malaise? I have no idea - I'm not a psychiatrist. I am interested only in Barbelith not being an eye-stabby place for people who might add value to the place. These unedifying scraps contribute to stabbiness on one level, but also send out the message that unexamined, unapologised-for generalisations do get challenged. That's a swings-and-roundabouts sort of a thing. Generally, if someone makes an incorrect statement, then makes a series of misrepresentations in seeking to defend that statement, then gets huffy, for example here, it generally remains in-thread. Where that pattern involves subject matter that might prove disturbing to members of groups that we as a board are apparently committed to trying to give a fair shake often denied by dominant societal paradigms (muslims, black people, women - see the current activity in the Jokes thread), then if the person doing it cannot be induced by reason to understand what they are doing, the next best thing is, IMHO, that they pause before doing it again because they know that people on Barbelith are so sensitive and huffy. That's not an ideal solution, but it's a solution.

However, it is a profoundly exhausting and psychically draining process, and not very much fun either to watch or to participate in. Which is (barb)annoying.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:48 / 14.02.07
I'm ready to register my annoyance but not to have that particular fight - so no, I'm not naming names right now. Apologies for scattergun discomfort, obviously.

Look it's simple, if you don't like what you're reading and you're not ready to clarify that then stop reading and don't post. You should take note that you haven't registered your annoyance because no one knows what you're annoyed about.
 
 
Quantum
12:31 / 14.02.07
I'm annoyed that my repeated suggestions to lock the joke thread (six pages ago now, and in the Policy) were kind of ignored. Is locking so bad? It's not a bullet to the head.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:02 / 14.02.07
What's the point? It will sit there like a lumbering giant on a Wednesday afternoon. Slowly it will sink down the page and it will TAKE YOUR HEART WITH IT.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:13 / 14.02.07
Rest your aching head Quantum, it's locked now and can't hurt you.

I personally held off suggesting a lock for ages in the hope that something of value might come out of the discussion. Then it was trying to find a time to do it that wouldn't automatically disadvantage the main parties in the dispute. This morning it looked like they were taking a break, so I nipped in. If someone unlocks it at the weekend we can see whether the pause in discussion has helped at all.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:18 / 14.02.07
... Hang on. I've just seen the new jokes thread. Oh well fucking done. Have you been reading George W. Bush's rule book 'If it all goes to shit the first time, do exactly the same the second time. What's the likelihood it could all go wrong again?'
 
  

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