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Barbannoy

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18:03 / 06.02.07

I think a lot of the friction comes out of how people see the future of the board. There's a number of factors that really need to change if it's really going to have any shelf life whatsoever (all covered by policy threads at present). Naming and the association of the board with TEH INVISIBLIZ* is one of the those key factors. Thus the irritation, I think.

*Funny spelling to indicate it's importance to mental psychic trollwars of years gone by.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

18:14 / 06.02.07

I think the main reason people are concerned about possible re-inforcement of the GM association as opposed to a possible BB association, Matt, is that there's a particular class of disputes that keep recurring over time. They feature a different cast of characters but similar points of friction, which are generally intimately tied to this misconception that Barbelith is an Invisibles-inspired joint. In the crudest form this manifests as "why can't I say [ethnic/gender/class] slur, I thought that an Invisibles forum would support free speach?" or storming off in a huff because people waxed unenthusiastic about your plan to create World Peace with a sigil. It might not happen every day, but it happens enough, and over time you can very soon spot the pattern re-emerging. When you've seen it re-emerge for its umpteenth iteration, you find yourself wishing urgently to avoid an umpteen-and-oneth.

18:26 / 06.02.07

I can't remember the last time someone waxed indignant with, "Davina McCall would be really disappointed in this place".

Regrettable Juvenilia

18:34 / 06.02.07

You know what Barb-annoys me? When people use the word "hysteria" to mean "people who disagree with me".

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

18:49 / 06.02.07

I can't remember the last time someone waxed indignant with, "Davina McCall would be really disappointed in this place".

Hang on, are you saying she would be?

ONLY NICE THINGS

18:50 / 06.02.07

Yes, that annoys me, as well.

I was trying to be sarcastically amusing above, but I think I just came off pissier than intended.

Actually, Matt, you were being pissy but retaining the right to claim that IT WAS A JOKE!!!, which right you have now exercised. No harm in that.

18:51 / 06.02.07

Hang on, are you saying she would be?

She would, yes. But she'd still cut to a montage of our best bits.

18:58 / 06.02.07

See also the increasingly meaningless "snark".

Eggs is spot on. The second post of that thread said everything that it needed to: here we go again. When there are two threads in Policy in which people are raising serious concerns about the long-term viability of the board, both of which are looking at how the place is becoming more and more stagnant as it fails to broaden its horizons and membership, the whole idea of annotating the same comic series for a fourth, fifth time is... well, 'obtuse' is probably the most generous way of putting it.

Also, Matt, there comes a point where you can't really keep on using the "long-timers are getting at me" stuff. At 55 threads and 958 posts, you probably reached it a while back.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

19:40 / 06.02.07

I honestly didn't mean to be pull a "I'm just a newbie" argument, Randy. I've worked hard at being a (at least somewhat) productive part of the community here, and flatter myself to think that I'm not looked at as some fresh-faced youth in from the farm, all grain-fed beef, Morrison and blue-sky dreams. To my knowledge, Mordant and Boboss are the only people that have brought up long-term posters vs. newer posters in this current exchange. I may have done it inadvertantly in Policy.

But there is a four-year gap between me and most of the people involved in the discussion, and I think -- as Mordant illustrates above -- that the five-year posters are approaching this with a certain degree of weariness that the <1-year posters don't carry, especially when it comes to posters using Morrison as an excuse for bad behaviour. Regardless of how prolific we young'uns are.

19:55 / 06.02.07

See also the increasingly meaningless "snark".

I'm assuming the objection to "hysteria" is at least partly connected to the term's dubious history as a way of compartmentalising and minimising certain issues/complaints as somehow feminine ie. there's a misogynist tang.

"Snark", on the other hand, is subjective in its meaning - but then, so many terms are open to interpretation. I think it's useful as a means of flagging up feelings of 'angry antagonism' on the part of at least some of those posting. It's one of those terms which started out vague 'n' fuzzy and has probably become more so but, compared with the venerably dubious "hysteria", 'tis a mere stripling.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

20:09 / 06.02.07

Yeah, I mentioned the time served issue for just that reason. I think with some things you really do have to suffer through a few attacks before you go from "you're all over-reacting! It's not that bad, people! What's wrong with you?" to "Oh, bugger, not this shit again." It's like a pair of shoes that's nice and comfy when you wear them for a couple of hours, so you put them to go out for the evening only to end up limping home in tears, wearing your mate's combat boots.

21:13 / 06.02.07

I'm going to register my prospective barbe-annoyance that I don't want Mordant to be right, but I suspect that ze is. Sigh.

The weird thing is, I'm probably going to plug on anyway.

21:24 / 06.02.07

When there are two threads in Policy in which people are raising serious concerns about the long-term viability of the board, both of which are looking at how the place is becoming more and more stagnant as it fails to broaden its horizons and membership, the whole idea of annotating the same comic series for a fourth, fifth time is... well, 'obtuse' is probably the most generous way of putting it.

Ok, but what are you doing about it? How would you like to see the thing improve? All you'd have to do is start a couple of threads, you know.

If you, and others, get a perverse kick out of showing up in the occasional policy thread to complain about how things ain't what to be then I respect that, of course, and I do find it funny, but, to effectively act like one of the Geezers in the Muppet Show while simultaneously not actually posting much seems a little slack. I mean at least those guys had lots to say.

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:54 / 06.02.07

I don't see the Invisibles re-reading as being a wedge issue, personally, once the crack-addled idea of an issue a week was disposed of. If it keeps people happy, and doesn't clog the forum too badly, why not let 'em go for it? It would only be Lost or The Matrix otherwise, after all, and some interesting stuff may come out of it.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

23:11 / 06.02.07

I'm assuming the objection to "hysteria" is at least partly connected to the term's dubious history as a way of compartmentalising and minimising certain issues/complaints as somehow feminine ie. there's a misogynist tang.

Okay, that hadn't even occurred to me when I said it. I was pulling on the "unwarranted fear and anxiety" as per my dictionary, but now that this is mentioned -- yeah, poor word choice, then.

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:12 / 06.02.07

Actually, Barbelith is surprisingly unannoying at the moment - barring a couple of embryonic trolls, I've had a pretty good time. I just wish there was a way to accelerate the snipe, snipe, batshit, kicked cycle.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

23:53 / 06.02.07

I don't see the Invisibles re-reading as being a wedge issue, personally, once the crack-addled idea of an issue a week was disposed of. If it keeps people happy, and doesn't clog the forum too badly, why not let 'em go for it? It would only be Lost or The Matrix otherwise, after all, and some interesting stuff may come out of it.

Gotta say, that's about where I am on it. It could even be pretty fun, as long as it DOESN'T clog up the entire front page of Comics, which some of the early suggestions definitely would have done.

00:06 / 07.02.07

I dunno Haus, the first snipe section gives me a chance to try and reach out to them. The second snipe section then allows me to balance out my general mush melon love of the board with some angst and handwringing. The batshit part is a fantastic display of witty nasty fang and claw snick snick action that's worth the monthly board support fee for the whole year. Then the kicked, well it's more like a slow drag isn't it? Ending up in a curb side scuffle fading off into the distance as we all wearily drown our sorrows behind a locked door.

Though I'd trade it all in to go from the snipe stage to the productive poster sibling in arms. I'm annoyed that I don't really know how to communicate to people that their opinion is valued and valid even when the language required for mutual exchange of information is that of compromise.

Excuse me, I have to go cough up a small child now.

00:18 / 07.02.07

I get a little annoyed by the seeming unexamined use of the word "misogyny" as though it were interchangable or always preferable to "sexism". But. I really use the word "seeming" meaning it. To me it seems that way, and I would not be surprised if I'm mistaken in my perception. Do those of you using it truly believe that the actions or words about which you speak are intended either as hatred of women, or as kinds of political actions intended to subordinate them, rather than as unreflective sexism?
I searched but didn't find any specific discussion of the use of these words, or the interchangability, or lack of.
I also mean it when I say "a little" annoyed. I don't know if I've ever thought the person saying it or what they were saying on whole was ill thought-out, just that distinction sometimes.
And, of course, people might not agree with that distinction.

ONLY NICE THINGS

00:37 / 07.02.07

Though I'd trade it all in to go from the snipe stage to the productive poster sibling in arms.

Once again, XK is bang on the money. Quite right about the kicking, as well - it is indeed more like a gentle shuffle towards the kerb with a pair of moccasins.

Disco is My Class War

10:23 / 07.02.07

Do those of you using it truly believe that the actions or words about which you speak are intended either as hatred of women, or as kinds of political actions intended to subordinate them, rather than as unreflective sexism?

Am I missing something here, or doesn't 'sexism' pretty much cover "hatred of women, or kinds of political actions intended to subjugate them"?

Oh, but you're saying sexism is 'just' unreflective, and therefore less bad, less hatey, less subjugatory, and possibly less political. I get it now. It's like there's 'good' misogyny, and 'bad' misogyny, and the good we can call unreflective sexism, and wave it on its merry way with a blown kiss.

Tryphena Absent

11:23 / 07.02.07

Sexism is a much less specific term than misogyny, sexism can be directed at anyone regardless of their gender so generally misogyny is a term that should be preferred if you're talking about comments that display a bias against women that in anyway veer towards hate speech.

Disco is My Class War

11:31 / 07.02.07

I've been intending for quite some time now to only post lyrics as a response to any thread for a week. This seems like a great place to start, with Le Tigre's "What Your Take On Cassavetes":

We've talked about it in letters
And we've talked about it on the phone
But how you really feel about it
I don't really know

What's Yr Take on Cassavetes? What's Yr Take on Cassavetes?
What's Yr Take on Cassavetes? What's Yr Take on Cassavetes?
Misogynist? Genius? Misogynist! Genius!
Misogynist! Genius! Misogynist! Genius!

What's Yr Take on Cassavetes? What's Yr Take on Cassavetes?
What's Yr Take on Cassavetes? What's Yr Take on Cassavetes?
Alcoholic! Messiah! Alcoholic! The Messiah! (x2)

Genius! Misogynist! Alcoholic!
Hey where's Gina?
Genius! Misogynist!
Messiah! Alcoholic!

What's Yr Take on Cassavetes? What's Yr Take on Cassavetes?
What's... Yr Take on... Cassavetes What's... Yr Take on... Cassavetes
What's... Yr Take on... What's Yr Take On... What's... Yr Take On..
Cass-A-Vet-Es?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

09:59 / 09.02.07

Can we amend the joke thread summary to include the words "if it's about blondes, penises, or girlfriends not giving you any, we've heard it" please?

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:29 / 09.02.07

Jesus, really? I mean, I don't read that thread cos it's (ironically) one of the least funny threads on the board, so I'm going to choose not to believe you, Mordant. I'm going to choose to believe that Barbelith has been running for many years during which many people have made it abundantly clear why that kind of shit been considered unacceptable on the board, and that nobody would be so stupid as to think that "haha blondes are stupid but only cos they r wimmin" would go down well here.I'm going to choose to live in a fantasy world in my own head, whereby the world is a nice and logical place. I'm not going to click on the thread. I'm not going to click on the thread. I'm not going to click on the thread.

*clicks thread*

I want to fucking kill someone.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

10:57 / 09.02.07

Dear God. I liked the one about the duck, but, well... let's just say I liked the one about the duck and leave it at that.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:38 / 09.02.07

Registered: Feb 2006
Topics: 7
Posts: 180

Sympathy: 0

11:55 / 09.02.07

As I said in the thread, the guy's got no fuckin excuse.

How can anyone be so dense?

12:41 / 09.02.07

Ok, but what are you doing about it?

In Comics? Fuck all. My exposure to comics used to be entirely led by this place. Since the majority of the comics discussion here is now about superheroes or Grant Morrison, neither of which I have much interest in any longer, I'm not reading any. Unless you want another thread asking for recommendations - and we've already got a few of those - there's not a huge amount that I can contribute to that part of the board.

If you're talking about the amount of posting I'm not doing in general, though, well, that's bullshit. I've been making an effort to get G&G into a decent shape for the last, what, two years? If I can only make negative comments about other aspects of the board if I'm posting twenty potentially derailing joke posts a day, then sure, I can do that, but somehow I don't think it's the best use of my time or the board's space.

Haus of Mystery

13:03 / 09.02.07

A Horse walks into a bar.

The Barman asks 'Why the long face?'

The Horse replies, 'I've been on Barbelith'.

13:45 / 09.02.07

Mac, not sure if you're responding to the stressyness in the Joke thread, or Randy's (apparent) stressyness, or some combination of the two.

In the defence of stressyness, I'd like to ask how else Barbelith - a community, lest we forget, that is trying to create a safe space for everyone (except perhaps bigots) - should police itself? The way we put a stop to misogyny round these parts is to have a go at the individual behaving in a misogynistic fashion. Ignoring them won't do for obvious reasons and we don't have teh speshul computer moderation powers to shut them up.

This is the reality of the board, I'm afraid. It's the way it's built.

If you have any alternatives I'd like to hear them.

Haus of Mystery

14:17 / 09.02.07

No dig at Randy. It was a shitty joke about the shitty joke thread. In particular the shitty johnleespider jokes.

Don't be startin no imaginary feuds.

14:33 / 09.02.07

Ah. That's that then

Laughed at Matt's duck hunt joke.

02:22 / 10.02.07

Sorry, I missed this before.
Am I missing something here, or doesn't 'sexism' pretty much cover "hatred of women, or kinds of political actions intended to subjugate them"?

Oh, but you're saying sexism is 'just' unreflective, and therefore less bad, less hatey, less subjugatory, and possibly less political. I get it now. It's like there's 'good' misogyny, and 'bad' misogyny, and the good we can call unreflective sexism, and wave it on its merry way with a blown kiss.
No, I'm not saying that sexism is just unreflective. I think I'm trying to say sexism is more broadly the subjugation or subordination of women (or men, yes), or even just the belief that women or men are somehow inferior, as a culturally imbued belief that is often not reflected on. It is, like so many cultural norms, simply taken as fact. This can be a culture of family, region, country, religion, whatever group or groups influencing the mind and beliefs of someone who might not be "reflective" enough to think otherwise. Why else would anyone be sexist, really?
Misogyny is more specifically hatred of, rather than prejudice against, women. It is more active, and I think even more violent, though I'm not discounting the destructive nature of sexism at all. It's insidious and extremely pervasive. I just feel that it is more like many cultural prejudices, based on unreflected ignorance and perhaps the unwillingness or inability to escape those prejudices. I also did not intend to say it was less political, though maybe it came off that way.
I'm saying I often hear people say things that are sexist or prejudicial in some way without realizing it. That does not make it benign, in any way. But I think there is more passion involved in misogyny, and that the discussion of it is weakened by misapplication and overuse of the term.
But, as I said before, people might disagree with that distinction, and that is totally understandable, I am not a dictionary. I also really apologize if this is offensive at all, I really don't want to disturb anyone, sorry if I have.

Disco is My Class War

10:32 / 10.02.07

Tsuga, I don't know, since evidently you were talking about a specific instance where you thought the words were being confused -- in which thread, mind if I ask?

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