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Lost (US thread)

  
  

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Keith, like a scientist
14:23 / 10.05.07
Wow, I thought I saw something.

Jacob screencaps and slo-mo video.

The possibilities that he is related to the Black Rock are really intriguing, but I'm not sure how that fits with Four Toe.
 
 
Bear
14:25 / 10.05.07
That might be classed as spoiler Yotsuba?

I just figured that the hostiles had to have come from somewhere, the boat is as good a place as any. But then the statues looked older so possibly not unless there are older natives on the island..
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
15:01 / 10.05.07
I thought it was just news? I mean, no one's spoilering the fact that he got shot are they? He told Kristen it was because he preferred living in hotels, if that makes you feel any better. But sorry, I'm not going to treat a news story about an actor as a story spoiler. There are a zillion other ways he could still be a part of the show.
 
 
Bear
15:06 / 10.05.07
No fair enough, I guess I was reading more into I thought you were trying to say that you thought he was done with the show hence the house selling.
 
 
Rhayader
17:16 / 10.05.07
Finally, the return of the eerie whispers we heard so much during Season 2.
I believe that Ben only leads a splinter cell of the Hostiles. The ones that are only there by recruitment, like Julliet, and are not aware of the dense history of the islands' natives. Richard is there to keep Ben in order, allowing him to believe that he's in charge, but he's growing sick of him.
Also, where do the Hostiles LIVE? They took over the Dharma compound, but where very fast to abandon it, as if it was a very minor inconvenient. They must be descendents of the four toed civilization, not the Black Rock.
Also, I fear for Locke. He's clearly the best character the show has.
 
 
Bear
17:33 / 10.05.07
I like that theory too! There are so many possible options which is why I liked the episode, I love me some speculation.

At the moment I'm playing with the idea what the Black Rock was used to send Hostiles out into the world, and the Losties are all descendants of them, something like that anyway. But that's manly due to the theories that Jacob looked like Locke (he did quite a a lot).
 
 
NewMyth
18:25 / 10.05.07
What were the earlier references to Jacob?
I recall some of you guys referring to him here some episodes ago.

Things look bleak for Locke, but the gun shot appeared to be below the heart, and if Ben does the typical villian thing of not waiting around to confirm the kill -- we've at least got Danielle to find him in time.

I thought the guy young Ben ran into in the jungle, might be Jacob -- but it was that handsome, not aging guy, Richard?

Richard Alpert was Tim Leary's cohort, and became Ram Dass.
 
 
Uatu.is.watching
19:22 / 10.05.07
What a fantastic episode. To me, the ash seemed like it might have been a containment circle, which could push the show in an interesting direction, especially with all the dead people (and a horse?) we've seen show up on the island.

I'm really curious to know Danielle's story now.

As far as the announcement of the end of the show, it's a great thing creatively, and kinda sad that people can't do that more often. Vertigo comics like Preacher and Sandman are a great model for epic storytelling, but a hit TV show, even one that's only a modest hit, has millions riding on it. Plus, it seems like the extended break and three seasons is more for the wrtiers to be able to take time to tighten up the plotting. Either that or it's a reference to John 3:16. Here's a great article that I stole that joke from.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
20:06 / 10.05.07
Containment circle is the thing that was tickling the back of my brain with the ash. If so, the question are:

Who is containing Jacob? Why? How long? And through what power?

All questions with interesting potential answers.
 
 
Bear
02:14 / 11.05.07
Just watched it again and I'm curious about something that I read somewhere else about the gas and guns, where did the Hostiles get them? I also noticed that Richard was wearing a very modern watch.

Here's Boboss I like his posts, hurry up and watch it!

I also think the way Ben walks out of the little house is a little weird, when I first watched it it looked like he'd been stabbed or shot and I thought perhaps it was actually him controlling what happened in the room but that makes no sense with his pissed offed feeling that Locke could hear Jacob.
 
 
Bear
02:20 / 11.05.07
Oh and what about the frickin button where does that all come from?

Another interesting thing I read was that Ben seems to use Lockes own gun to shoot him which would make the 'Happy Birthday Dad' thing have a little more depth. I'd personally love it it Alex was as evil as Ben and everything she's done so far has been part of some master plan.
 
 
Bear
02:23 / 11.05.07
Oh and also something else I noticed was that Ben said he was one of those smart enough not to end up in the grave, which makes me curious as to which other Dharma people joined with the hostiles.

Alrighty that's enough!
 
 
fish confusion errata
02:28 / 11.05.07
It's driving me up the wall how no one has any curiosity. So many chances to ask "what the hell's going on? Tell me everything," and they don't.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
02:58 / 11.05.07
Oh and what about the frickin button where does that all come from?

I think we can take the button stuff as they (Dharma, Kelvin and Desmond) told us. Electromagnetic disturbance on island, Dharma fixed it, gotta keep pressing the button and venting it.
 
 
Spaniel
08:55 / 11.05.07
Locke asked Ben to tell him everything "from the beginning" at the start of the episode. Ben didn't. Quelle surprise.

Wooooo. Stuff!

Some rushed random thoughts

~ I'm completely down with the idea that Ben cannot, and possibly never could, communicate with Jacob, and that he's jealous of Locke's ability to hear him. I strongly suspect the reason why Ben took Locke to see Jacob in the first place was to see if Locke could commune with the guy. In my book Ben rules by manipulation and deceit and he'll do anything to cling to power. Locke threatened that power, therefore Locke had to go. His chat with Jacob was the final straw.

There was much chatting about this theory after the show.

~ The healing/sperm count boosting properties of the Island are responsible for Eyebrow's longevity. This seems like the most elegant way to deal with that stuff.

Just how old is Eyebrow anyway?

~ We're missing important parts of Ben's childhood backstory. His relationship with that little girl is almost certainly important and was quite possibly instrumental in his decision to help kill all the Dharma guys.

~ Ben's line about the Dharma Initiative's failure to achieve harmony with the natives/hostiles suggests that perhaps there were chances for peace.

~ Ben clearly felt something for the guy who brought his dad to the Island. Is there more to tell?

~ Is it simply a coincidence that Ben's mother died at childbirth and that pregnant women die on the Island?

~ Ben's line about two factions and one of them being dealt with doesn't bode well for our Losties. We know what this guy is capable of now.

~ The Hostiles' resources? People have raised this point above and it's been bugging me too. Given that Eyebrow has an American accent I'm inclined to think they've always had off-Island backing, but I'm intrigued by the idea that they have forced off-Island partners to deal with them post the Dharma massacre. Are they tied to Widmore in some way?

~ Is Jacob a ghost? Is he part of the same kind of phenomena that people keep seeing - the phantoms, like Ben's Mum and Kate's horse?

~ Can't shake the feeling that the ash is volcanic. Would seem strange to have devoted a scene to volcanos otherwise.

~ Locke ain't dead, or if he is I think he'll be back in some significant way shape or form. I reckon the creators would move Heaven and Earth to hang onto that guy. He's by far the most compelling character in the show and they know it. Also, I might be reading too much into it, but I get the impression that Locke's got a new mission: the help Jacob!

Bear, I think you and I see eye to eye alot when it comes to this show. I like your posts muchly too.
 
 
Red Concrete
11:43 / 11.05.07
I'm not entirely convinced on the Hostiles being a human "side" in all this. They do seem to have recruited Ben from the Dharma Initiative, using his psychological problems, and visions of his mother. In much the same way, something has been exploring the Losties' psychology, including visions, since they arrived on the island. I'm tempted to surmise that the smoke-monster and a lot of the weirdness that goes on, comes from the island itself, or some hidden faction. I think it is probably some mystical force, which is also responsible for the whispering voices, the visions, the electromagnetic weirdness, the healing/fertility effects, and which has the power to recruit people to it, after causing crashes and shipwrecks most likely. Possibly it also counteracts aging - Mr Eyelashes could have been aboard the Black Rock, for all we know. That said, Ben has aged... and he has contracted cancer.

Ben, when he knocked off all the Dharma people and joined them, effectively took over facilities of the Dharma Initiative, and appears to have continued the process of bringing people to the island and conducting research. The hostiles and Mr Eyelashes are now intermingled with Ben's new crowd, but they are not quite "the New Hostiles". Mr Eyelashes helped Locke by suggesting he recruit Sawyer, and seems to remain aloof from Ben's new wave of Others. I beginning to think that Ben is manipulating Jacob (hence the call for help to Locke), in order to maintain his position amongst the Others. And the island force is therefore (still or again) hostile to Ben and his crowd...?
 
 
Spaniel
12:10 / 11.05.07
Also, maybe we now have a fuller explanation of Ben's motivations when he asked Locke to kill his father. It's no accident that Ben should have committed patricide and demanded that Locke do the same. Afterall if Ben had to sacrifice a parent on his path to becoming a leader then it makes sense that he would demand a similar sacrifice from another potential candidate, and, well, I'm sure he didn't think that Locke would have the stones to go through with it (as suggested by Eyebrow).

This of course isn't a complete explanation in that it doesn't account for the Others (as a community) acceptance of Ben's plan, and doesn't explain just how Locke's Dad got there in the first place. My assumption, that he was kidnapped by forces allied to the Others, suggests that there were significant and consequential motivations at work in addition to Ben's private drives. Could it be that someone or someones want to see Locke in a position of power in the Others community? Eyebrow man's pep talk suggests that might be the case.

Anyway, here's my very rough thinking about Locke and Ben's relationship broken down into 4 easy steps. Note, this doesn't take into account any outside pressures which no doubt exist - it's all to do with Ben's private motivations.

1. For a variety of reasons Ben decides that Locke could be an asset if he can be bent to his will

2. Ben realises he's made a mistake with this guy and tries to humiliate and undermine him, but fails when Locke arrives with his father on his back

3. Ben takes Locke to see Jacob in an attempt to see just how well tuned to the Island he is, and whether he poses a real threat. Could he, for example, reveal the truth - that Ben can't communicate with Jacob at all?

4. Locke succeeds in communicating with Jacob, Ben freaks and decides, as a last resort, to kill him.

What a great big splurge of thoughts! No doubt loads of it is wrong, but I just can't help myself.
 
 
Spaniel
12:19 / 11.05.07
I'm beginning to think that Ben is manipulating Jacob (hence the call for help to Locke), in order to maintain his position amongst the Others. And the island force is therefore (still or again) hostile to Ben and his crowd...?

I completely agree with this. Whether Ben can communicate with him or not, I think he is using using him for his own ends. Locke hearing Jacob would, then, obviously be a problem.

Ben, when he knocked off all the Dharma people and joined them, effectively took over facilities of the Dharma Initiative, and appears to have continued the process of bringing people to the island and conducting research. The hostiles and Mr Eyelashes are now intermingled with Ben's new crowd, but they are not quite "the New Hostiles".

This seems to me to be exactly what's happened. I'm very interested to see in what ways the Others are internally factionalised.
 
 
buttergun
13:04 / 11.05.07
So just to gather my thoughts, it seems that Jacob is maybe the spirit of the island, and Ben at one time was his conduit -- hence his going from a "work man" to the apparent leader of the Hostiles. And I'm assuming having this authority/communion with Jacob grants you all sorts of special abilities -- like being able to walk again upon arriving on the island, and bitemarks disappearing from your hand overnight. Hence Alpert telling Locke that regaining the ability of his limbs could "only happen to someone very special." And the cryptic comments that the Others think Locke is someone else -- most likely Jacob's new chosen one. I'm assuming all these shots of Locke healing over the past few episodes are now to serve as foreshadowing, so we won't be shocked when his bullet hole closes and he crawls out of that mass grave...probably in the season finale.

But yet there are still so many questions. Who were the hostiles we saw last season during the "Tailies" episodes -- the bedgraggled and savage-looking Others we only saw from the ankles down, running barefoot through the jungle? Why did Ben's people dress up like eyepatch-wearing pirates in the season 1 finale? Why did they want "Waaaaaalt"? There are so many questions...I'm afraid half of them won't be answered. And as enjoyable as this show is, sometimes when you sit down and think of it, the entire edifice is pretty damn ridiculous.
 
 
fish confusion errata
13:50 / 11.05.07
"Locke asked Ben to tell him everything "from the beginning" at the start of the episode. Ben didn't. Quelle surprise."

Locke should have asked again. He had many more opportunities.

I'm thinking that the Others see Locke as someone very special, perhaps someone who can replace Ben. They let him go with Ben to see Jacob because they want to know if Locke can really see Jacob - and they're suspicious that Ben can't really see him.
 
 
Spaniel
14:38 / 11.05.07
Lost is about staggered revelation so straight questions will always be sidestepped. In addition, as the man says, Lost doesn't really do straightforward exposition either, rather it opts to show and not tell, hence the answer to Locke's demand coming in the form of a flashback and not a lecture.

This actually factors into BG's point above about the Others initial ragged appearance, which I'd agree has never been fully explained, but is now at least partially explicable. I think it's interesting to note that the Hostiles also had a ragged appearance back in the old days. Were they carrying out a similar deception, or were they genuinely rough and ready?
 
 
Uatu.is.watching
14:48 / 11.05.07
As far as the button is concerned, it does seem like Kelvin was recruited by Dharma in a manner similar to Juliet, since we have seen him in a couple flashbacks. We know that supplies were airdropped for that station. Perhaps the supply drops continue because Dharma back home doesn't know how much things have changed? Because they were still getting signals from the Flame? Hmmm. Where does Mikhal fit in?

Also interesting to note, is that Ben was born just outside of Portland. When Juliet was recruited, she was originally told she was going there, only to find out later that where she was going was "not Portland"...
 
 
Spaniel
17:07 / 11.05.07
I've been wondering why I have the feeling that Ben can't hear Jacob - beyond the fact that I know Ben is a manipulative bastard, I mean - and I think it comes down to his insistence that John tell him what Jacob said. At first I thought Ben was testing John, probing to see whether what John had heard matched what he had heard, but that wouldn't explain Ben's failure to recognise what Jacob said when John finally revealed it at the end of the episode. It's like the writers were attempting to do away with any ambiguity and flag up the fact that Ben hadn't heard anything.

Of course, Ben might've just missed what Jacob said, but I tend to think Ben's enquiry actually serves some purpose in the plot.
 
 
buttergun
18:32 / 11.05.07
I thought the episode made it pretty clear that Ben heard Jacob at one time, but no longer does. Hence his cancer, his slipping authority of the Others, and his jealousy of Locke -- a man who went from a cripple to a kick-ass commando capable of headbutting and knocking out a Russian soldier, all while delivering action-movie quips, in the span of two months.

I'm sure in future flashbacks we'll see how Ben came upon Jacob, etc...but I'm sure it's his communion with said spirit which led to his current leadership of the Others.
 
 
Spaniel
19:36 / 11.05.07
I thought the episode made it pretty clear that Ben heard Jacob at one time, but no longer does.

I think that's more than perfectly possible, but I'm not sure where it was made clear.
 
 
_Boboss
20:36 / 11.05.07
as far as i can remember this show had been firing on super cylinders for weeks and weeks now. i come away from each episode staggered and reeling with ideas and who the what the's. great stuff - only two episodes togo is it? going to save them up for a two hour splurge i reckon.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
20:38 / 11.05.07
pretty sure it's technically 3 hours to go. 1 more hour episode and then the 2 hour season finale.
 
 
_Boboss
21:11 / 11.05.07
oh yeh, right you are.
 
 
Red Concrete
23:32 / 11.05.07
Boboss: I've been wondering why I have the feeling that Ben can't hear Jacob

buttergun: I thought the episode made it pretty clear that Ben heard Jacob at one time, but no longer does.

I'm not sure about in the past, but I think the way the scene was scripted, with us not hearing Jacob's words to Ben, helped that. This was followed by Locke turning the torch on, which appeared to "wake" Jacob, it was only then that we had any cue that Jacob was there and communicating.
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
00:28 / 12.05.07
A couple of thoughts -

1) I think it's clear that we'll see an episode that deals with what happened to Annie. Her disappearance was just too unmarked, and what with the close-ups on the birthday present and all. Series 4, I reckon.

2) Jacob looks like Locke. It's undeniable. So it's probably a red herring. The voice sounds like Ben, though, through a filter - and we never actually see that it wasn't him speaking...

3) The ash, although the volcano point above is very valid, seems like it has to be a circle of containment spell - why else would Ben react so forcefully when Locke started to examine it? And consider that Jaboc said "Help me", as though trapped?

4) What the hell was Said digging last week?

Really enjoying this series. If they get to the end of the 117 episode run in 2010 and bring it to a satisfying conclusion, I am going to be majorly impressed.
 
 
Spaniel
07:59 / 12.05.07
3) The ash, although the volcano point above is very valid, seems like it has to be a circle of containment spell - why else would Ben react so forcefully when Locke started to examine it? And consider that Jaboc said "Help me", as though trapped?

Hey, I think the containment spell idea is perfectly possible, if a little unsupported by evidence at this very early stage, however I also think that ash is volcanic, otherwise we would be left with a significant dose of redundancy this episode. I mean, I don't see the idea that it's ash and the idea that it's a component in some kind of trap or spell as being mutually exclusive.



Looks rather a lot like the stuff Locke was running between his fingers, eh?
 
 
A beautiful tunnel of ghosts
14:29 / 12.05.07
Colonel Kadmon: 2) Jacob looks like Locke. It's undeniable.

On the contrary: I think it's entirely deniable; the comments from the link at the top of the page seem to support that. From the eleven frames shown of Jacob, there appears to be a similarity between the two, but Jacob seems to have brown eyes.
 
 
Spaniel
15:42 / 12.05.07
The frames in question are faaarrr too shadowy for me to start making confident statements about similarities between Jacob and Locke.
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
01:24 / 13.05.07
You saw brown eyes? In eleven shadowy frames? I couldn't even see the dude's eyes!
 
 
A beautiful tunnel of ghosts
09:52 / 13.05.07
Locke and Ben both have blue eyes. The close-up we see at the end of that sequence shows a third character's eyes, which are brown, which suggests that Jacob has brown eyes.
 
  

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