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Lost (US thread)

 
  

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Yotsuba & Benjamin!
15:15 / 25.05.07
I have to apologize, Cameron.

Looks like it was Michael after all.

Further uncoverings found "from New York" and "teenaged son".

Makes sense, as since he didn't arrive with everyone else, he didn't get the heroes welcome and spent the interim building a fake identity and living in squalor. Walt probably left him when he realized that he was meant to be on the island and his father dragged him off of it.
 
 
CameronStewart
15:59 / 25.05.07
I'm still very much of the opinion that it was Ben in that coffin. It's the only one that makes complete narrative sense from any angle.

I'll probably get roasted for this but I'm not entirely convinced that the text in the obituary clipping is significant. I don't think we're meant to be able to read it, even if we do have the ability to freeze frame a hi-def digital download and enhance it in photoshop (I'm reminded of the band poster on the wall in the background of an episode of Chris Morris' Nathan Barley episode that, if you looked carefully, read "The Detail-Obsessed DVD-Watching Fuckwits"). If this show had been made 10 years ago, before we had this technology to scrutinize single frames of film, the text in the clipping would pass us by completely. We see the headline, which is the important part, and the rest is just filler to indicate there's a complete article there. For all we know the text could be cut-and-pasted by the prop department from a real obituary.

Time will tell, obviously, but at the moment the thought of people blowing the frame up to 800% and saying "it's a J! J-E! I can make out part of a C!" is somewhat amusing.
 
 
Spaniel
17:01 / 25.05.07
Truth. Although it could well be significant. The level of detail in this show does vary but it often goes pretty deep. See Ben's diary entry f'rinstance

Just had a chat with my partner who pointed out that Penny cropping up may well suggest that it is in fact her and not Naomi's crew that rescue the Losties. Otherwise, what's the (narrative) point of her making contact with them when they are still on the Island?
 
 
Spaniel
17:05 / 25.05.07
Out of interest, Guys, do you think we could try and use this when posting spoilers?

[+] [-] Spoiler
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
22:59 / 25.05.07
+] [-] Spoiler
 
 
Spaniel
10:34 / 26.05.07
Oh, I wasn't thinking that we should hide details of this latest episode, just drawing people's attention to the (sort of) new functionality
 
 
miss wonderstarr
11:07 / 26.05.07
If this show had been made 10 years ago, before we had this technology to scrutinize single frames of film, the text in the clipping would pass us by completely. We see the headline, which is the important part, and the rest is just filler to indicate there's a complete article there. For all we know the text could be cut-and-pasted by the prop department from a real obituary.


Of course, but it wasn't made ten years ago. Enough of the brief or background details seem to pay off to make this kind of scrutiny seem worthwhile, on balance ~ to make it seem like a deliberate game, an in-show ARG, whereby creators seed the text with little details for the hardcore minority they know are out there. For instance, the satellite phone seemed dead at first; all the characters who looked at it said it was dead. It was Lostpedia contributors who realised it had three bars of battery-life, and was a blocked signal, before the characters did.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
11:34 / 26.05.07
The funeral director asks Jack if the deceased is friend or family. Jack replies "neither". So, Ben seems the most obvious choice. Locke... possibly. Michael? I don't see it. Sawyer? No.

Further, I'm sure I read a post (perhaps not on here) speculatng about the deceased, or the accident victim, being called Arlen? Jack refers to the Arlen charts ~ Arlen is a company that supplies medical educational products, as far as I can gather.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:53 / 26.05.07
Finally, re. flashforwards: it all depends of course on which narrative you're taking as "present day". If the present-day of the show is understood to be dated around Sun's childhood from "The Glass Ballerina", then everything else is a flashforward.

More realistically, if the scenes prior to the flight of Oceanic 815 are the show's primary timeline, then the Island scenes constitute flashforward; if the Island (2004) is the present day, then (as is generally assumed) we have been watching flashbacks and one flashforward.

But if the real-world present day (2007) is also treated as the show's present day, then of course rather than us seeing into the "future" in the season finale, we have to assume that the show so far was made up of six (at least) levels of flashback:

- the period of Sun's childhood
- 1963-1979 or so? Ben's birth and childhood
- 1987, from Hurley's flashback "Trisha Tanaka is Dead"
- The Purge (1990s)
- the period just prior to flight 815
- the Island (2004)

And any others I've missed. Again, this is stating the obvious really, but now we've seen that Lost includes our present-day, to call that period the future and treat 2004 as the present seems a bit perverse. Effectively, all of Lost is told in flashback from 2007.
 
 
Spaniel
15:53 / 26.05.07
I've been thinking around that stuff too. The assertion that Season 3 will feature flashbacks and flashforwards doesn't deal with the fact that there is some ambiguity about what exactly constitutes a flashback or a flashforward. I tend towards a straightforward interpretation myself, but I'm conscious that there is wriggle room when it comes to the use of those terms.

On another subject entirely, I've been mulling over what happens to Jack. My gut reaction is to say "nothing much" the fact of being uprooted from the Island, pulled away from the sense of purpose it gave him and the powerful lifechanging relationships formed there, he just crumpled. A perfectly believable human reaction. This being drama, however, I think it's more than possible that there's more to it, that some inciting incident lurks in the background.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
23:59 / 27.05.07
My best mate pointed out that the Jackforwards in this episode had the 'flashback roar' at the end of the flashforward, not the beginning. Alhough I'm conscious that not every flashback in the show has featured the 'roar', and maybe some of them had it at the end as well, so maybe that doesn't mean so much. Hey, blame him if the above's a load of horse pucky, I didn't notice it at all.

Loved this finale. Everything that Lost does better than any other show, distilled into one cracking ninety minute nailbiter. And after nearly two seasons of wishing Charlie would head to that great reunion gig in the sky, two episodes have me loving him again. I don't care how contrived or not it was that he closed the door on Desmond, or that he could have waited to enter the code until they had the scuba gear on, or any of that. You can call it plot holes, or explain it by saying that at that point Charlie genuinely thought that Desmond's interference had once again beaten his personal reaper, and that he'd cheated death again... until he saw Mikhail's face at the porthole, and realised that he was still meant to die. I prefer the latter... either way, I was made to care again about a character I'd written off as useless. And that's another thing Lost does better than any other show.

Entering into the murky world of speculation... I'm confused about how some of you can be so sure about who's in the coffin, dodgy netgeek photofu not withstanding (remember the hoax Dharma shark? I fully believe that the producers on many levels quite like fucking with that obsessive natured kind of viewer). Narrative sense, Cameron? The show's halfway through. There's no accurate way in which anyone right now can say what makes perfect narrative sense, especially for a show that loves fucking with narrative causality to the extent that Lost does. To the extent that the current narrative means anything, it makes more sense for Ben to have stayed on the island, or been buried there. It's a massive leap to suggest that it has to be Ben in the coffin because he's the only one that no one gives a toss about but that Jack might have gone to see. In the next three years, that could be anyone. It could be Locke, it could be Sawyer, it could even be Walt!

The idea I came up with - bearing in mind, again, that we're now half way through the run - is that maybe all of the 'flashbacks' in the next three seasons will be flashforwards instead. Maybe the next forty-eight episodes will be a process of getting us to the points we see in the flashforwards. And since Desmond's arc seems predicated on being able to see flashes of the future, maybe the characters on the island will also be privy to them, much as certain flashbacks have been disclosed to other characters as past history (Sawyer telling Jack he met his Dad in Oz, Kate and Sawyer admitting to each other that they're both murderers, etc). And if that's the case, then maybe they can change them.

There's no guarantee that Naomi's alleged freighter will be getting them off the island, obviously, and even if it exists and it does, maybe not at all soon. I like - no, love - the idea that Ben's telling the truth for once in his misbegotten life, that there really were good reasons for lying to everyone, and lying to his own about the Looking Glass, and the jamming signal. That there are good reasons for keeping certain people off the island, and keeping the Losties on the island. That that particular mission is what the Others have been keeping alive all this time, keeping the island safe from certain interested parties. That, all along, the Others have really been the good guys. That would rock my world.

And it's a little odd for me to think that, if Jack's flashforward is genuinely set in 2007, he was just too fucked in the head to remember his dad had been dead three years. Twice in that episode they were at pains to have Jack refer to his father as being alive, and it's odd that the pharmacy nurse would have tried to call the chief of surgery who's been dead for three years. As far as the narrative to date goes, that requires us to fill in a logical blank - that the nurse is too new and didn't know the name of the chief of surgery who was run out of the hospital, or hadn't heard the office scuttlebutt about the hero doctor's deadbeat dad, whose corpse he was bringing back from Sydney when the plane disappeared - or that the other doctor wouldn't try to correct him when he exploded in rage about his father being drunk. In other words, if Jack being headfucked by pills and booze is the explanation, then that's a fairly major error in the narrative of that episode, because for the sake of a slight red herring it requires us to fill in logical gaps. Given Lost's structure of revelation and mystery to date, often centering on new information being provided in flashbacks that sheds new light on events on the island, it makes just as much sense to consider that maybe Christian isn't dead in this flashforward at all.

What if you can't die on the island - or just can't stay dead? Locke's not only had his spine fixed after the crash, but has walked about easily enough after a fairly horrible impaling/crushing leg injury in the last third of season two, not to mention just climbing out of a pit and walking across half the island after being shot in the torso. Ben had spinal surgery only a couple of weeks ago, and now he's ok with several long jungle treks in a few days. Naomi punctured a lung and barely survived hackwork field surgery, and she's also up for a day-long hike through the jungle only a few days later. Mikhail survived the sonic fence and a harpoon to the chest (although possibly not the grenade, we'll see). Richard doesn't appear to have aged significantly in forty years. We still have no idea what happened after the hatch im/exploded at the end of season two. Locke and Des (at the epicentre of the event) claim they don't remember properly, and Charlie (on the periphery) seem to stagger clear and then never even mention it again. Eko never gave a clear account after he died, either. Everyone in the main cast who died so far has been buried fairly swiftly. And Jack's Dad's body was never actually recovered...

Remember Richard's key question to Young Ben - did his mother die on the island or off? He seemed more impressed that Ben saw her when he was told she'd died twelve years or so ago in mainland America, and in terms of the narrative of that episode, this conversation leads directly (well, thirty years later) to them accepting Ben not only as one of them, but as their leader. Because (my theory) he'd seen and communicated with Jacob, not his mother. Jacob, who has a habit of manifesting as people long dead, or missing. Or horses, I guess. Had Ben's mother died on the island (again, my theory), Richard might well have thought that the island had just healed her, or even brought her back entirely, and so thought less of Ben's story. That's all supposition, obviously, but it makes a certain amount of sense to me. At least, right now. All theories subject to change as and when season four fucks with my brainpan once again...
 
 
Spaniel
17:33 / 28.05.07
Isn't the flashback roar at the end just about emphasising the ohmygodwowness of the twist? It rises up as the plane launches into the sky and hammers home that, yes, we ARE in the future (Lost time). That being the case, I'd be surprised to see it used in this way again, as at it's heart it's a functional device designed to conveniently and clearly signpost a chronological shift in the narrative.

I'm not sure about people not being able to die on the Island. What about all those dead mothers-to-be? I think the place very likely works like it says on the tin: people heal well there. Some people (Locke), however, clearly heal better than others. And, like I said upthread, the same factor that promotes healing is also responsible for the increased sperm count and longevity of Richard.

I'm also of the opinion that the Others think they're doing the right thing*, and that Ben, even if he is a little power mad, is convinced of the righteousness of his cause, I just can't see any of it making sense otherwise. Really intrigued by the idea that the creators will persuade us to sympathise or even side with Ben's motivations.

Anyway, starting Season 3 off with everyone - Others and Losties - on the run from the evil Freighter Force would be a great way to juice up the show.


*It also seems entirely clear that many of the Others have some kind of military role, and almost certainly have any sense of responsibility for their actions mediated by deference to the chain of command
 
 
Tsuga
23:03 / 28.05.07
Anyway, starting Season 3 off with everyone - Others and Losties - on the run from the evil Freighter Force would be a great way to juice up the show.
Bingo. I think you've got it right, there. But it will probably have to be a forced cooperation, there will always be a tension between the "normal" losties and the ruthless functionality of the Others.
 
 
Triplets
23:18 / 28.05.07
On the 'roar', a number of the flashbacks in Seasons 1 and 2 had it at the end (can't speak for Season 3 as I've not watched much of it).
 
 
Spaniel
07:31 / 29.05.07
"The hero? Twice over"

The other doctor to Jack during the flashforward. Missed this line the first time around. I strongly suspect the first instance of heroism has something to do with saving a bunch of people stranded on an island.
 
 
Spaniel
07:32 / 29.05.07
And, Trips, spoiling Lost? For shame.
 
 
gridley
17:25 / 29.05.07
"The hero? Twice over"

The other doctor to Jack during the flashforward. Missed this line the first time around. I strongly suspect the first instance of heroism has something to do with saving a bunch of people stranded on an island.


I thought he just said that because Jack saved the child and then went back in and saved the mother.
 
 
CameronStewart
17:38 / 29.05.07
>>>thought he just said that because Jack saved the child and then went back in and saved the mother.<<<

Well yes, that's what they wanted you to think, because it's misdirection, but when you find out that it's a flashforward it's fairly certain that people laud Jack as a hero and a minor celebrity because of saving the survivors of 815.
 
 
Spaniel
17:53 / 29.05.07
Did he? Must've missed that, sounds about right though.

Still, I'm not entirely dissauded - there might be room for both interpretations: that he could be called a hero twice over for going back for the boy, or that he has been involved in two acts of heroism, of which the car crash business is but one. I dunno, it looked to me like Jack's beard and sunglasses, while almost certainly included to represent his new miserablist lifestyle, could also function as a disguise - to stop people from recognising him.

Maybe Jack is so down in the dumps because he and Kate and perhaps a third person (who I'm inclined to think isn't Sawyer) cut some kind of deal to get off the Island, and Jack planned to go back for everyone else, but, predictably, found he couldn't. Waddayathink?
 
 
Spaniel
17:54 / 29.05.07
x-post.

Yep. You used a lot less words than me, but that's kinda what I'm thinking
 
 
wicker woman
04:53 / 30.05.07
And it's a little odd for me to think that, if Jack's flashforward is genuinely set in 2007, he was just too fucked in the head to remember his dad had been dead three years. Twice in that episode they were at pains to have Jack refer to his father as being alive, and it's odd that the pharmacy nurse would have tried to call the chief of surgery who's been dead for three years.

I don't buy it. I would say the 'at pains' mentions of his father were meant to just be misdirection as to when the scenes were taking place. Also, I didn't get the impression that the pharmacy was in the hospital; I think it was just supposed to be a standalone pharmacy, a la Walgreens.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:01 / 30.05.07
Maybe Jack is so down in the dumps because he and Kate and perhaps a third person (who I'm inclined to think isn't Sawyer) cut some kind of deal to get off the Island, and Jack planned to go back for everyone else, but, predictably, found he couldn't. Waddayathink?

The problem with that is it implies to me that there has to be a storyline where Kate and Jack go back to get the rest of the Lostaways ~ and if that story starts in 2007, when does the rescue of Sawyer and the others take place? 2008? If Jack's attempted suicide and miserabilism was set in 05 or 06, I'd see more room for the next storyline to involve them trying to recover their fellow islanders.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:06 / 30.05.07
Also, why would he be a hero just for getting Kate and himself off the island?
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
07:57 / 30.05.07
For me, the 'twice over' thing isn't misdirection. It's an open statement that doesn't refer back to anything we know about, and so invites speculation. The whole point of misdirection is that it's designed to invite you to assume that one particular interpretation is the right one, and if it's designed well enough you barely even notice yourself making the assumption. The 'hero twice over' line is a throwaway, a small sliver of a line line designed to have greater impact later when the twist's revealed.

I would say the 'at pains' mentions of his father were meant to just be misdirection as to when the scenes were taking place. Also, I didn't get the impression that the pharmacy was in the hospital; I think it was just supposed to be a standalone pharmacy, a la Walgreens.

Yeah, maybe... she was about to call to verify the prescription, though. Dunno about you guys in the States, but down here if they think a prescription's faked they'll refuse service and/or call the police, not buzz around trying to find the doctor who allegedly gave it to you.

Still think the mentions of his father as being alive are more than just mentions. And Jack filling out a prescription in his three-years-dead father's name and expecting it to be filled? That's more than just a 'fucked in the head on pills n' booze' shouty moment, that's premeditated nuttery. Could be wrong, though.

Boboss, take your point about people dying quite a lot on the island... I think my (idle) speculation was more along the lines that certain people seem to have a hard time dying on the island, and dead people seem to appear to their surviving friends/family all the time. In addition, Jacob appears to be, at the very least, non-corporeal. I don't see any definitive reason why Christian couldn't be alive again, other than it taking the show further into the realms of the supernatural, or the appearance of that. Before Jacob, I would have said it would have been slightly off centre for Lost to do something so clearly fantastic, but now I'm not so sure.
 
 
Spaniel
08:18 / 30.05.07
Oh no, I don't see any definitive reason why Christian couldn't be alive either. I don't think he is, but I don't have much invested in the idea.

Also, why would he be a hero just for getting Kate and himself off the island?

MW, hey, again, I'm far from convinced - just throwing stuff out there. However, I think that could be explained by a further bit of speculative thinking: perhaps, in order to get off the Island Jack and Kate cut a deal which involves them having to lie their arses off about where they had been, and perhaps that cover story paints Jack as a hero. That would work to make him feel extra guilty every time anyone ever used the term when referring to him, as, irony of ironies, in his mind he's just the opposite: he's the guy that abandoned his friends.

I totally agree with the rest of your assessment however. Logistically it would be difficult to fit in, although perhaps not impossible.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
08:24 / 30.05.07
Sure, I get that we're just speculating, Boboss... it's all good. What else are we meant to do between seasons!

Still think the mentions of his father as being alive are more than just mentions. And Jack filling out a prescription in his three-years-dead father's name and expecting it to be filled? That's more than just a 'fucked in the head on pills n' booze' shouty moment, that's premeditated nuttery. Could be wrong, though.

He was about to commit suicide ~ I'd say he was pretty fucked up. If you're ready to take your own life, you've achieved a pretty extreme perspective and might be ready to fill in a form in your father's name (if that's what he did.) But... yeah. It's all just throwing ideas out and booting them around, at the moment.
 
 
Spaniel
10:05 / 30.05.07
As much as I enjoy speculating, 8 months is a long wait. Pretty convinced that the new schedule has a lot to do with freeing up the actors' time.

Gonna be following Comicon with interest, although there's a fine line between Damon and Carlton's teases and spoilerage, and that's a line I don't want to cross.
 
 
buttergun
12:43 / 30.05.07
I also think it's odd Jack's dad would be mentioned twice in the episode. Add to that Jack's "I'm sick of lying" at the end. Could easily see some scenario were Christian is alive, due to the "magic box" on the island, yet Jack -- maybe as payment for getting off the island -- has to pretend his dad wasn't dead, there was no Fantasy Island filled with possibly-immortal Others, etc.

On another note, I think this future stuff is interesting because we could look at it as real-world commentary on the actors themselves. Someday when Lost is over and they're no doubt not getting the level of work/receiving the level of fame they currently are as part of this high-profile show, they'll no doubt wish they'd "stayed on the island," ie stayed on the show.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:50 / 30.05.07
due to the "magic box" on the island

Ben admitted his talk of a "magic box" was a metaphor. There is no actual magic box.
 
 
buttergun
13:19 / 30.05.07
Another mysetery. Why did Ben go to such trouble to set up the "magic box," only to so abruptly brush it away in the next episode? "The magic box is a metaphor, John!" And I'm using it as a metaphor too, of course -- just as something (or someone) brought Locke's dad to the island, Jack's is there, too -- last we saw him, Season 1, he was an apparation pointing at Jack, and his coffin was empty.
 
 
CameronStewart
14:26 / 30.05.07
>>>Twice in that episode they were at pains to have Jack refer to his father as being alive, and it's odd that the pharmacy nurse would have tried to call the chief of surgery who's been dead for three years.<<<

I can't say for certain because I've only watched it the once, maybe someone who still has a copy can check, but the pharmacy Jack is in when he tries to get new pills didn't look to me like it was part of the hospital, it was just a run-of-the-mill drugstore somewhere, and so the pharmacist would likely have no idea who Christian Sheppard is and whether or not he was dead. And that's why she was calling to confirm the prescription, because Jack was acting pretty odd, like a desperate junkie, and she probably has a legal obligation to check up on any prescriptions that seem suspect (like a guy claiming, after unsuccessfully trying to refill an expired prescription, that a guy with the same surname just wrote him a new one).
 
 
Spaniel
14:41 / 30.05.07
I can't remember clearly but I think Ben's attempt to "brush away" the magic box metaphor was an attempt to articulate his exasperation with John, who wouldn't stop asking questions.
 
 
Spaniel
16:32 / 30.05.07
In fact, as I recall it, Locke was asking a series of highly sceptical questions, which were falvoured with more than a hint of facetiousness. I seem to remember wanting to pat Ben on the back when he came back with his metaphor retort.
 
 
Mug Chum
18:40 / 30.05.07
I thought he just said that because Jack saved the child and then went back in and saved the mother.

I took it (afterwards) as being about him being the mighty Shepard of the castaways. And his line about being sick of lying was referring to something awful he did (or that at least he sees as awful). Maybe to get out of the island, maybe something we've already seen etc. Something that made him lost it completely.
 
 
Spaniel
07:36 / 31.05.07
Surely he's sick of lying back in the world. It seemed to me like a complaint about a current situation.
 
  

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