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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

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00:29 / 12.10.06

I feel loads better. It is dreadfully out of date and has since been discredited. I can show you where... Tastic.

I've felt a bit like I was selling a gun to a todler.

00:47 / 12.10.06

As long as you tell them where the safety is, they're on their own I say.

03:44 / 12.10.06

I think that is the way to go redtara. 'It's a book full of crap, here are some other ideas.'

In the meantime....

drink me...come back and play!

03:45 / 12.10.06

I so, do, like your name...

04:00 / 12.10.06

As a closing drunken question that fits in with this thread....But one i've been thinking about a lot....

EAST, SOUTH, WEST, NORTH...

When working with your altar or whatever practice. How do you have it set up. Is it a big part of your practice to face a certain way? Do you fit around what you've got or do you go out your way to make sure that you face E etc?

08:39 / 12.10.06

I think not all satanic abuse is mythical: what about that priest who ritually murdered the nun in New York? I think the feminist magazine Ms had an article about it recently and some info here too. That guy was alleged to have been involved in non-lethal ritual abuse as well so there would be a case for knowing how to help people who've survived that kind of abuse to recover.

Re directions: yes, important to me. I carry a compass on my keyring and I feel much safer when I know which way North is. I read somewhere a long time ago that people who navigate by absolute (N/S/E/W) directions rather than relative (right/left etc) are better at navigating in general, and I picked it up then.

trouser the trouserian

08:41 / 12.10.06

redtara

some more info on Valerie Sinason:
article in Daily Telegraph
and another article discussing the Independent's story on Satanic Cannibals and how the DoH spent £22,000 commissioning a report co-authored by Sinason: Hale-Sinason Report

Finally, this article looks at Genesis P. Orridge's "exile" from the UK as a consequence of Channel 4's "Dispatches" programme.

09:08 / 12.10.06

Saturn's nod

I agree that there are many murders that are done 'in the name of Satan', see for example the numerous cases of murders amongst teenagers in Italy or Norway with a death metal aspect. But i think that the 'satanic abuse' myth is of a particular, insidious type as it's more about the normal(ish) looking families in our communities and an imaginary spread of a vague satanist-blackmagic-paedophilia ring. The paedophillia aspect is very important in this.

The story you posted to is interesting but i'd like to read more evidence of the 'group of priests who performed satanic rituals and held sadomasochistic orgies.' Do you know if there was anything else reported on this?

09:28 / 12.10.06

There's a specific type of recovered memory satanic child abuse scenario though which is effectively a conspiracy theory. From Trouser's links these highlights;

Valerie Sinason, a child psychotherapist who has, almost single-handedly, kept alive the notion that some children in Britain have been the victims of ritual or Satanic abuse for more than a decade.

Adults 'remember' being abused decades ago in rituals cobbled together from anti-catholic propoganda and subconscious memories of horror movies, publicity for the film Hannibal etc. There's no factual basis for the conspiracy.

...after a £6 million inquiry, all charges were dismissed and social workers criticised for planting ideas in children's heads. In 1994, a three-year Department of Health inquiry by the anthropologist Prof Jean La Fontaine into 84 alleged cases of ritual abuse found no evidence of Satanism in any of them.

On the other hand as AWM says above, lots of murders have a satanic element whether it's 'The Devil made me do it' or your example of the killer priest.
There is ritual animal sacrifice with satanic overtones going on though, the same site covers the sheep story:
In the latest attack farmer Charles Mudge, of Tavistock, Devon, found 30 of his flock dead with bizarre half-moon symbols carved into their flesh. He discovered all their bodies lying near a bloodstained stone altar and wooden stake.

09:41 / 12.10.06

By the way Saturn's nod. Cheers for your thoughts on the cardinal directions. It's something that is becoming more inportent in my practice at the moment. In the past i was all a bit 'thats metaphysical East..that'll do'

trouser the trouserian

10:46 / 12.10.06

I think not all satanic abuse is mythical: what about that priest who ritually murdered the nun in New York?

here's an article from the Toledo Blade which goes into the details of the satanic abuse claims which relate to the Robinson case:

Survivor Doe claims that Robinson, Mr. Mazuchowski, and other "clergy cohorts" dressed as nuns and used women's nicknames during "elaborate, ritualistic ceremonies" in the basement of St. Adalbert's Church on Warsaw Street.

On another note - a key witness in the Isle of Lewis Satanic abuse case from 2003 has recently admitted that she was pressured into making false statements.

Quantum - the "satanic" sheep-killings have been going on for some time now (the BBC website has a report from last October) and there are claims that it's been going on since January 2005. Yet no arrests - or even suspects and no documentary evidence has yet surfaced. I couldn't find anything about the killings on the websites for the RSPCA or the local constabularies. There was a discussion about the incidents on the UK pagans forum recently where several people who lived around Dartmoor said that the matter wasn't being talked about locally. Curious, eh?

11:28 / 12.10.06

Survivor Doe, now in her early 40s, claims the abuse began in 1968 when she was 5 years old and continued until 1975.
...Survivor Doe's latest court filing included 42 pages of handwritten rhymes and childlike drawings from journals that she began keeping in 1993, when she said her memories of alleged childhood abuse began to surface. (Toledo Blade article)
Sounds suspiciously like a textbook case to me, reconstructed memories eighteen years and more after the time, recognised the guy off TV from his trial for satanic murder. I'm sceptical, personally.

Trouser- it does seem strange, the first conclusion I jumped to was that some high ranking policemen might be involved but I think that's my paranoia talking. It's silly to assume satanic chief constables, they're all masonic swingers as any fule kno.
I started a thread on it but it didn't take. Maybe the local community is weirded out so much they don't like to talk about it, but I don't understand why there's no investigation at all and little interest.
Mind you, the press report two men crashing a plane into a NY building but not two men crashing a plane into a jumbo jet and killing all the passengers on Monday (because the American guys survived and the victims were Brazilian). Worst air disaster in Brazil's history, relegated to BBC online. It's funny what gets reported and what gets ignored.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:47 / 12.10.06

Talking of sex, I've been noodling around with this vague idea--not even an idea really, more a loose set of connections.

I was thinking about anomalous births in mythology, specifically Loki and Slepnir, also Loki's pregnancy from Gullveig's heart and the reference in Lokasenna to His having given birth and nursed infants (I think--that last part I'm a bit shaky on because the translations differ, some say 'milking cows' and others say 'milked like a cow' or 'like a milch-cow.' The original is kýr mólkandi ok kona but I don't speak Viking.)

Someone I was talking to mentioned having been reading a book on various shamanic cultures, and having come across references to 'birth' experiences, usually of an animal which would fly/run/swim away but might return later on to become a spirit ally of the shaman.

And then I was thinking about the lurid tales emerging from the European witch trials, which would often involve talk of familiar spirits. These would sometimes be said to be the offspring of the witch herself and the Devil or some demon or other; according to some accounts they would visit her to nurse, and confer wisdom and magical power. Of course, you know, witch trial account, not noted for reliability etc., but it struck me as an interesting parallel.

I was wondering if the whole Loki-giving-birth thing might not refer to some shamanic practice, esp. given the nature of the offspring--Sleipnir can traverse worlds and carry people between the realms of the living and the Dead, the Gullveig's heart pregnancy resulted in a brood of flagð (variously translated as troll-women, ogresses, witches--female monsters, possibly having magical powers).

I'm just throwing all this out there because I think there's possibly the makings of an interesting thread, but I don't really have much of substance at the mo. I have a couple of dead tree refs I'm waiting on but in the meantime I wondered if you dudes had any input.

12:47 / 12.10.06

Re: Satanic abuse

there has been a good amount of bubbling down in the Jungian fairytale analysis crowd that the fairytale archtypes (bad parents/step parents/monsters/devil) can be triggered as a narrative. What this means really is that while the events outlined may not happen in our tangible shared reality the experience of those people ( through false reclaimed memories) is traumatic enough to cause PTSD. If you look at myth as a hyper text running along side of actual events and creating a frame of intrepretation it's pretty damn horrifying to learn that the old school Grimm fairytale lense can be activated quite readily.
Religious Tolerance's INVESTIGATOR'S GUIDE TO ALLEGATIONS OF RITUAL CHILD ABUSE

re: ancestor worship
I'd be psyched to have a thread on it as I'm gearing up for my Samhain Dead tending. I'm always happy to share recipes and rituals.

re: directions
not so much with the altar but head alignment when sleeping effects OBE greatly as well as dream states for me.

re: shape changing birth
I've always been fascinated by this in the celtic tales. Many figures go through magical transformation via ingestion/birth shapechanged/birth. Again if you start a thread on it I'm sure many people would have interesting bits from around the world.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

12:54 / 12.10.06

Duh. Do you know, I plain forgot the Celts. How silly of me.

13:16 / 12.10.06

Well I don't have much but regarding witch trials don't forget the witch's mark or devil's nipple, to suckle the familiar etc.

I always thought giving birth to an eight legged horse would be... uncomfortable for a guy. All those hooves.

13:42 / 12.10.06

Duh. Do you know, I plain forgot the Celts. How silly of me.

well we all get sucked into our specialties that's why it's nice to have access to people with complimentary obsessions.

I always thought giving birth to an eight legged horse would be... uncomfortable for a guy. All those hooves.

hrm..I've always been a bit fond of Sleipnir's eight legs as a metaphor for the number of people's legs (attached to people) carrying a body. However that doesn't stop me from thinking of him as a real being either. Is there any historical evidence of the number of his legs being a metaphor or is that just lint I managed to pick up somewhere?

13:46 / 12.10.06

wikipedia- It has been suggested that Sleipnir having eight legs is symbolic of the four men who carry a coffin, i.e. a steed to carry the rider into the underworld.[citation needed] It might also be a reference to a real horse with three toes, a genetic manifestation that occasionally happens on the front or rear legs of a horse, usually without harm to the animal. Though rare, it has been seen, (Julius Caesar rode just such a horse in a number of battles) and this might have worked its way into the myth.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

14:25 / 12.10.06

Another explanation is that there's a particularly speedy breed of horse native to Northern Europe, having a gait that makes it look as if it has extra legs.

I'm a fan of the four-men-carrying-a-coffin image; I've also come across the idea that an 8-legged horse could refer to a plank of wood laid on sawhorses for a magician to lie on while he goes faring forth (journeying).

Then again, you have four fingers on each hand, with the thumbs making a 'head.' X-ref the whole runic-hands thing...

15:12 / 12.10.06

When working with your altar or whatever practice. How do you have it set up. Is it a big part of your practice to face a certain way? Do you fit around what you've got or do you go out your way to make sure that you face E etc?

Since much of my work is Golden Dawn-based, I generally try to face East (the direction of the rising sun, and hence associated with light, rebirth, and other nice stuff like that.). Taking the time to find east is a nice little centering ritual in itself. ("OK, which direction is east? I'm in New Jersey, and New York City is over there, so it's that way. OK, let's go.")

If for some reason I don't actually know where East is, though, I just pick a direction that fits the floor plan of the room I'm in. ("Right -- that's East for now.")

I was thinking about anomalous births in mythology, specifically Loki and Slepnir

Don't forget Athena from Zeus' brow and Dionysus from Zeus' "thigh" (which I always suspected might be a euphemism).

Less searchable M0rd4nt

15:13 / 12.10.06

And all the various races in the NT cosmology from various bits of Ymir.

17:23 / 12.10.06

Anyone know anything about the Irish deity known as "Aengus"

17:40 / 12.10.06

the other spelling of his name is Oegus mac Oc. His mother is Bóand and his father the Dagda though that's not Bóand's husband....

The Dream of Oengus

He won Brú na Bóinne (New Grange) from the Dagda by asking to borrow it for a night and a day and then when asked to return it pointed out that as the all of the world passed in that time span it was now rightly his. It also forced the Dagda to publicly claim him as his son.

what you want to know?

17:42 / 12.10.06

Okay:

Presumably the root cause of the "Satanic Abuse" witch-hunts is sexual repression?

Why do you think that?

The relentless warped sex within the invented scenarios suggests, to me, that warped sex may prompt their invention. But then I have an incomplete and immature understanding of, and agreement with, Wilhelm Reich, and I tend to see all gross and misplaced expenditure of energy as frustration of erotic drives. (Do these big "Satanic Abuse" scandals flare up all over the place or are they concentrated in certain areas, certain psychological climates?)

It was mostly Child Psychologists veering wildly out of control, not sexual repression.

As far as answers go, that doesn't go very far. "Why have these fucked-up situations occurred?" Because some people happened to veer wildly out of control - end of story.

("Why did ghadis feel the need to post such gleefully spiteful shit concerning the imminent death of an old sick writer?" Because ze was drunk on tequila; and afterwards ze was remorseful. "Okay... Why does ghadis feel the need to consume substances that twist hir into such nasty shapes?" Don't even go there.)

What you are saying is that because redtara has previously objected to pornography, or getting in pornography, through hir shop, that 'karma' deals hir with a bloke who wants to buy a book on Satanic Abuse.

If you believe, as a lot of us do, that whole Trismegistus "as above, so below" malarkey, then it follows that all of us, in our everyday lives, with our ups and downs and our irritating customers at work and everything else, are enacting much larger issues. If - if - if the "Satanic Abuse" cases are the result of sexual repression then, sure, a minor act of repressing sexuality leads neatly to the minor nightmare of having your head invaded by such sick shit.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

17:50 / 12.10.06

So drink me--are you confirming that you believe, as I suggested earlier, that a book on directing porn is by definition a nice, healthy, pro-sex item, devoid of any negative associations (the commercial porn industry being the liberating and egalitarian funfest that we all know it to be), and that refusing to sell it was an act of sexual suppression? Remember kiddies, this was not a book of erotic photos or sexy stories, it was a book on directing porn.

17:51 / 12.10.06

both Princess and heart might be interested in this story as it has Aengus and a goodly amount of transformation births thingies.

Tochmarc Etaine or the Wooing of Etain

as an aside I had a very interesting experience visitng one of Oengus' sidhe mounds in western Ireland.

17:58 / 12.10.06

oh and here is a nice wee summary of Himself:

Angus, Angus Og, Oengus
Angus, Angus Ã“g, Oengus : Son of the Dagda, Irish god of love; wooes and wins Caer. His mother was Boann. He was called Mac Ã“g (or the Young Son) after his mother’s words, ‘Young is the son who was begotten at break of day and born betwixt it and evening’, referring to his magical conception and gestation. He was fostered by Midir. Because of his magical birth, he had power over time. When the mounds of the Sidhe were being distributed between the Tuatha De Danaan, he arrived late and demanded to spend a day and night in the dwelling of the Dagda. This was granted, but on the following day when he was asked to leave, he said, ‘It is clear that night and day are the whole world, and it is that which has been given to me.’

18:07 / 12.10.06

if the "Satanic Abuse" cases are the result of sexual repression

Whose? The children? The (innocent) adults? The psychologists? Our society? Who exactly is repressing whose sexuality in this scenario?

18:13 / 12.10.06

Hi MC -

1) are you confirming that you believe that a book on directing porn is by definition a nice, healthy, pro-sex item, devoid of any negative associations (the commercial porn industry being the liberating and egalitarian funfest that we all know it to be)

Interesting question - I guess my answer is gonna be that such a book is probably as nice, healthy, and pro-sex as any other book on directing movies, the commercial film industry being the liberating and egalitarian funfest that we all know it to be.

2) are you confirming that you believe that refusing to sell it was an act of sexual suppression?

Yes.

18:18 / 12.10.06

I bow to your amazing celt-fu. Thanks xk.

18:25 / 12.10.06

Hey drink me I have PMed you about all this and I thought you'd have got that I in no way repressed said chain yanking customer, porno guy that is.

For the rest of the group...

The book shop I work in has four, not the three I quoted you Drink Me, other book selling establishments in the same street. Said bloke was at liberty to go seek out his text at the Forbidden Planet next door but one, the Catholic book shop six doors down, the remaindered book shop half way down or the Waterstones right on the end.

The shop is run by a women's co-op on socialist femenist multicultural principles and as such we get lots of chaps wanting to be contentious and get into a heated debate about abortion, misegination, communism, and so on and so forth. I am adept at spotting a chain yanker. This guy was undoubtadley one and if he had got his book order he would have had a plan B. 'So it's OK for femenists to sell porn' type shit. You wouldn't believe how often I am asked to justify our policies, practices or stock, ALWAYS by men. Four years and not one confrontational contentious woman!?!

As I said in my PM I think that there is more repression in pandering to the will of others when it does not suit your own just to keep the peace. This is very often something expected of women in public and private life. I am not a public service.

Finally I would be very surprised if karma was the blunt instrument you describe in your cause and effect scenario. And if it is another way of looking at is that I have been given an opportunity to broaden the horizens of a group of basically descent people who are fundamentaly ignorant of the wider spiritual world. I have to say athat it sounds like you could do with reading the links posted here about the misinformation and career witchfinder generals who have had vested interests in the promotion of the myth of Satanic Ritual Abuse. My work here is done, Normal programing will be resumed.

Sorry if this comes off a abit grumpy, but as I said I've said this before in PM and it doesn't seem to have been read.

18:30 / 12.10.06

no worries it's all about tapping the left over brain cells and then applying google-fu.

If you are looking for a God of Love, Oengus is pretty kick ass and helpful having been through the wringer Himself. He's also got a trickster apsect as many of the Irish Gods often do.Though it might be helpful for you to know he is more about romantic/sexual love than just straight up sexual attainment.
There were 9 forms of marriage under Brehon law including one night stands and the only sexual behavior that was really condemned was thoughtless promiscuity, taking anyone as a sort of 'under the bushes' ho. It's about self worth and taking pride in your lovers.

For straight up humpage you might want to check out one of the other fertility Gods including the Dagda Himself.

18:35 / 12.10.06

And if it is a sexual blockage then, redtara, your awkward situation now could be the direct karmic result of your imposing "morality" on the guy wanting the "directing pornography" book, couldn't it?

Just re-reading this I have to ask whose sex is blocked? Why is redtara imposing her "morality" on the guy? And most importantly, to echo the above post, that's not karma you're talking about. I don't think you have a clear idea of what karma is, and furthermore I think the only one guilty of imposing their morality* on someone else is you, drink me.

*with or without scare quotes

18:54 / 12.10.06

I haven't really got a reason to find out. I just found someone dropping the name as "the celtic Eros" and I wondered how much truth there was in that aproximation. He seems a really interesting character. I'll return back in a few days when my reading and library trekking has provided better questions.

Thanks again for the help xk. It's very much appreciated.

18:57 / 12.10.06

The shop is run by a women's co-op on socialist femenist multicultural principles and as such we get lots of chaps wanting to be contentious and get into a heated debate about abortion, misegination, communism, and so on and so forth.

You know, I know stuff like this happens but I manage to forget about it, most of the time. What a bunch of fucking arseholes. You have my fullest sympathies.

are you confirming that you believe that refusing to sell it was an act of sexual suppression?

Yes.

That's a very narrow reading of the situation which, forgive me for saying it, could only have been written by a bloke. It pushes out any other personal or politcal basis for Redtara's action. Another reading, which should be glaringly obvious by now, being "woman not putting up with fucking offensive sexist shit". Good on you, RT, I say.

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