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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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The Ghost of Tom Winter
14:37 / 20.09.06
Maybe both get the benefit.

Which would have more willpower you'd say? The one who leaves despite the urge (pressure?) to go on or the one who stays despite the unruly pain?

Get over it.

At what point do you say enough is enough? When does personal safety outweigh spiritual enlightenment?


What did you do?

To my personal dismay, I scratched it.

Perhaps I can find a servitor that'll scratch it for me.
 
 
EvskiG
14:50 / 20.09.06
I still would have scratched it.

Eat when hungry, sleep when tired, wake up when you're finished dreaming, scratch your nose when it itches.

I've sat zazen a fair number of times. From personal experience, I find that if I spend a second scratching my nose and then get right back into the swing of things, it's a lot more productive than spending the remainder of a given session feeling distracted.

Of course, as others here have observed, sometimes discipline is the point (or one of the points) of a practice. (Crowley's sitting exercises, for example.) If that's the case, xk offers a pretty reasonable solution.
 
 
EvskiG
17:17 / 20.09.06
Just to follow up on Henningjohnathan's earlier question, I've found two interesting books on the subject of early pre-Hebrew polytheism: The Origins of Biblical Monotheism and Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan.

Very pricey, but I'm going to pick at least one of 'em up. Thanks for raising the subject!
 
 
EvskiG
17:22 / 20.09.06
(Actually, a much cheaper choice on the same subject seems to be The Early History of God.)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:51 / 20.09.06
"Personal safety?" I don't think anyone ever died of an itchy nose...
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
18:07 / 20.09.06
"Personal safety?" I don't think anyone ever died of an itchy nose...

I assumed this was a generalization to all the things that might distract you from your meditation but which might be bad to ignore, from the wrong kind of pain in your joints to having to pee really bad or maybe smelling smoke in the house.
 
 
petunia
18:07 / 20.09.06
Problem with itches and stuff is that a lot of them arise as symptoms of the mind getting freaked by meditation and trying to find an excuse for not letting the meditator drop it. Like a fidget or whatever. Itch becomes a way to escape meditation.

I guess what you do depends on your own experience with meditation (i would include trance-work etc here as well, but my own experience is only of meditation). If you can just drop the itch, see it as an itch and let it go, that's probably the preferable thing. Maybe if you can be aware of and discern the difference between 'itch as a bodily need' and 'itch as a mental fidget'.

But if not itching the itch becomes just a battle to avoid it, you're being as much a slave to that itch as you would be if you scratched it. So it might be better to scratch it, but as you do so be aware that 'itching is happening, i am fulfilling that itch instead of dropping it'. Obv, this is better done without any 'itching the itch is good/bad'. Just be honest - 'i have an itch, i can't drop it, therefore i will honour the itch and itch it'. Use the itch as meditation, not as a way to avoid meditating.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:15 / 20.09.06
Also: Which would have more willpower you'd say? The one who leaves despite the urge (pressure?) to go on or the one who stays despite the unruly pain?

From whence does this pressure arise? "Oh no, my nose itches but if I scratch it the cool kids'll think I'm soft!" And since when was meditation about some kind of demonstration of willpower? You meditate to obtain the benefits of meditation, not so that passersby will stop and say "gosh, meditaty!"
 
 
petunia
18:18 / 20.09.06
Seconded - Willpower and meditation do not good friends make.

There's a world of difference between forcing yourself to sit stock-still for 3 hours on a pole, and meditating.

I read somewhere 'will = mind, meditation = no-mind'...
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
18:21 / 20.09.06
"Personal safety?" I don't think anyone ever died of an itchy nose...

Woops, sorry. I was referring to your remark on the "elaborate rituals involving hooks, chains, sutures, restaints and a dude with a cat'o'nine tails." In which case personal safety can be an issue.
Also, in regards to various rituals where pain can be inflicted but should ultimately be overcome, when does one say "Stop"? Should one continue the ritual despite possible physical (irreversible) trauma in the name of enlightenment (or whatever else.)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:28 / 20.09.06
Well, people who engage in risky practices do have a number of mechanisms they can employ to reduce that risk. For more information, check out the Using Ordeals for Worship and Magic thread, which should help answer some of your questions.
 
 
Proinsias
18:42 / 20.09.06
the idea that the Raven King's magic is based upon a covenant with natural forces and entities, such as trees and stones, strikes a chord with me

Not sure if this is what you're looking for but I've started reading Opening the Dragon Gate: The Making of a Modern Tao Wizard . The daoist training described involes working very closley with animal and plant life.

The wizard describes using different species of tree to connect with and draw different energies from, different species correponding one or more of the five elements and using them selectivly to balance his own energy. Animals are also used in a similar way. Not sure if this fufills a covenant with nature but when taken in the wider context of taoism it's surely not far off it, I think.....maybe.
 
 
grant
14:28 / 21.09.06
I have a lot of experience with a kind of amplified version of the itchy nose thing, in that I was taking tai chi classes in a South Florida park at dusk. Slow movements do nothing to keep mosquitos off you. It was always a choice -- disrupt posture, potentially throw off balance/lose your place in the movement (and in the moment), or have the agonizing sensation of letting the little [expletive] bite you. And then fly lazily away.

I have no answer to the problem, other than that the emphasis in tai chi was always a practical benefit of mindfulness, so as long as you were either getting something out of shooing them away or getting something out of tolerating the bite, you were doing it right.
 
 
EvskiG
19:52 / 21.09.06
Seems to me that, after the first time this happened, the answer would to be to do one's Tai Chi while wearing insect repellent.

Mord made a good point about the point of meditating being to obtain the benefits of meditation, not to impress the punters or prove one's machismo. (Lots of people seem to think that if you're not fighting pain or discomfort, or if you're not working to keep stock still, it's not really meditation.) If you can't sit in lotus, do half-lotus. If you can't do half-lotus, do quarter-lotus. If your nose itches, deal with it in whatever way you feel will be least disruptive to your practice -- and then forget about it.
 
 
Isadore
14:51 / 24.09.06
Question on divination systems and interpretations, etc. Over the last year I have been trying (with mixed success) to get back into the habit of doing a daily divination in the morning, a sort of look at the day's lessons if you will. I could go into the background in some detail, but since nobody cares let's keep this short:

1) What do you do when a divinatory system gives you overwhelmingly negative, hope-shattering readings over and over again -- say, several weeks of nothing but Mannaz reversed, Fehu reversed, and Isa over and over? The dark night of the soul was worst a few years ago, thank you, and yelling at the ceiling does not seem to help, candles or no candles.

2) I need a non-sexist translation of the I Ching. I've been quite happy with the Wilhelm/Baynes translation for a few months now, but then I threw Kou, #44, and frankly I have a hell of a lot more sympathy for the first 'weak' line than I do for the five 'strong' lines on top being threatened by the possibility of a female in their domain. "If an inferior element has wormed its way in, it must be energetically checked at once." Look, I deal with this sort of attitude every time I walk out the door, and after much 'energetic checking' unfortunately have internalized it into far, far too much self-loathing. Is there a way to cut this crap out of divination?
 
 
grant
14:08 / 25.09.06
a divinatory system gives you overwhelmingly negative, hope-shattering readings over and over again

They don't, you know. It's only interpretations that can be negative. Trouble is trouble, but it's also, generally speaking, an opening for change or an opportunity for withdrawal. In the tarot, the falling tower represents the loss of false accomplishment & a clearing away of hubris (based, after all, on the Tower of Babel) to open a path to *true* accomplishment. In the runes, the hailstone pummels crops, but then fertilizes them -- it's "the coldest grain," and is linked to primal creation. Ice is "the broad bridge" across which blind men are led (in Norse), is "fair to look upon" (in Anglo-Saxon) and is "the roof of the waves" (in Icelandic).

There is nothing inherently negative about them.


With the role of women in the I Ching, it's a little trickier, but it's important to think of everything in there as allegorical. It's not that the weak line is standing for all womankind, it's that women (in traditional Chinese society) were seen as an embodiment of that weakness. The commentators were attempting to explain an abstract concept by using a concrete example that everyone (in that time and place) would understand. Now and here, it's become a less effective allegory.

Perhaps reading some of the texts using hexagrams and trigrams as models for martial arts might be useful -- weak lines become backward or receptive/following motions, which are key components in most deflections and what fencers would call ripostes -- instead of blocking an offensive move, taking it and using it to launch a counterattack.

In other words, the "female" is not always seen in negative light, and is quite often a source of positivity (see da you, hexagram #14, "possession in great measure", generally considered one of the most auspicious hexagrams in the book).

Also, hexagram #44 is one of 12 "sovereign" hexagrams -- July, the middle of summer, is the month ruled by it. November is ruled by all-"female" kun.
 
 
Ticker
18:52 / 25.09.06
Hey what do you folks do after a problematic group ritual?
I rarely do group stuffs and I had kind of crappy hiccup in the ritual I participated in last night. Overall it was very cool and higher than the average scores for success in a group of mostly strangers. The weirdness was just between myself and one other person. We've been sorting it out but I'm left with an Argh-ick factor not directed at the person as much as the energetic bad taste in my mouth. Nice person, shitty misunderstanding mid-ritual.

I'm a-thinkin I need to do some cleansing but I have to sort my shit out post haste as I'm going to be involved in more group stuffs next weekend.

If you have any post group cleansing rites for purging the residual ick factor I'd be grateful to hear them. Most of mine are geared towards either general cleansing or severing energetic ties. In this case there was a moment of confusion of roles that resulted in a nasty confrontation while in ritual headspace. We worked it out on a social ritual level but my, er how to say, magical hackles are still up. I don't desire to gloss over the incident in case it has significance I'm just not seeing right now but I have to put it in perspective and defuse some of the defensive/offensive residuals in my bag o'tricks as it were....

does this make any sense?
 
 
Haloquin
19:50 / 25.09.06
Is there any way you could do a general cleansing and concentrate on using that to get into the role you should be in energetically? Using whatever keys/acts etc you normally use to bring yourself back to yourself during a cleansing is normally enough for me... I find the Feri Kala exercise can be helpful for releasing specific energetic issues... its on this page under "Making Kala" about 1/5th of the way down the page; Here

Basically it involves breathing the blockage/ickyness into a glass of water and using prayer, chanting, channeling energy etc. into the water to transform it into healing, unblocking energy, so you can then use it productively instead of having it clog you up. Her method involves more faff than I like but I don't have a link to a simpler version to hand.

Showers are also good places, a good wash-with-intent gets things you may have missed.

Hope this helps.
 
 
Ticker
20:10 / 25.09.06
It does, thank ya.

Yeah I scrubbed with my poison ivy soap for duel purpose (the chance of ivy after crashing throught the woods in the night and the ick) last night but I'll probably do a dip in the Drink for a nice bit of frozen-forgetaboutit.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
14:22 / 26.09.06
I like the sound of frozen-fergeddaboutit. That's a lovely phrase.

Does anyone know of appropriate herbs or symbols I could use in a ritual involving resolution of the past and healing of a wound? Since I had chest surgery in Feb, I've been holding onto the chest binders I used to use so I could burn them at some point. I held off planning it until a couple of weeks ago, when I finally realised how well it's healing and how glad I am that I did this. The aim is to banish the physical binding, but psychically binding the newfound rightness of my body, at the same time.

Also, ever since surgery, my immune system has been shot (I've had flu for almost the entire seven months, bar random weeks here and there.) So the ritual is not just about saying 'see ya!' to articles that are associated with pain and discomfort and body dysphoria, but to encourage my body to heal, quite literally. I'm going to set candles on the barbeque in our backyard and have a little fire party.

(Like Stoat, I realised that maybe if I care enough about the Temple to argue about it, I should be posting here more. Hmmm.)
 
 
Princess
16:04 / 27.09.06
Hey all. I've had an idea and I wasn't really sure where to put it and the question, by itself doesn't really merit it's own thread. So I thought I'd put it here as this is the catch-all, stupid taking, bit.
So, would anyone else be up for an experiment? I kinda wanted to start a thread that would act as a magical space in it's own right. People could post channeled stuff, art, I'm not sure what. But at the end we'd end up with a sort of living collage and an interesting web-space.
As I said, if anyones interested PM me and I'll start another thread to discuss the details. As it is this is one of those ideas that's persistent but not fully realised. So rather than just keep thinking about how it might end up, I thought I'd ask if anyone would be interested in the project.
 
 
grant
16:42 / 27.09.06
Rosemary is associated with memory and with healing, although it always seems... nostalgic... to me.
 
 
Chiropteran
17:06 / 27.09.06
grant: in hoodoo, fwiw, rosemary is specifically used to strengthen "female power" (i.e. in the home), which would probably be counterindicated in this instance.

Mr. Disco: for a start, you can't go wrong with sandalwood and frankincense for healing and general well-being. I'll do some checking when I get home and see if I can offer up more specific, herbwise.

It sounds like you're looking at three related, but functionally distinct, operations: put the former state of your body behind you, embrace (bless?) the new state of your body, and improve your general health (which could in turn consist of two sub-operations: driving out illness, drawing in health/protection). Am I breaking that down correctly?

Coming from a hoodoo perspective, I would probably go with a series of ritual herbal baths, broken down according to the separate intents described above. I don't know how or if this would fit into your current practice, though, and you may already have something specific in mind.
 
 
Olulabelle
21:56 / 27.09.06
Misted Disco

For speedy healing, try rosemary, juniper berries and sandalwood. If you can't find juniper berries in your local occult shop then try the delicatessen.

Universal incense, which you can burn for all positive magical purposes contains frankincense, benzoin, myrrh, sandalwood and rosemary.

So you could make a combination of these two, but by far the most important thing is to empower it with what you want whilst you make it.
 
 
grant
23:39 / 27.09.06
If you can't find juniper berries in your local occult shop then try the delicatessen.

Or, uh, a decent bottle of gin.

Just sayin'....
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:39 / 28.09.06
Mmmm... sounds good, Lula, but I'm with Lep on the rosemary. She's very feminine, very much about what are tradtionally considered 'women's mysteries.' Don't think that's really an appropriate vibe in this instance, you know?
 
 
Olulabelle
08:23 / 28.09.06
I can understand where you are coming from, but I still think it's appropriate.

Scott Cunningham, in 'Incense Oils and Brews' says,

"Many herbs, such as rosemary have several traditional magical uses. A healing incense containing rosemary should be programmed with strictly healing energies. In effect this redirects rosemary's love-inducing, purificatory and protective powers toward healing, creating a mixture aligned with your needs. This is done by sending personal power, infused with your magical goal, into the mixture."

That's what I meant by empowering it when you make it. I probably should have made that clearer.
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:02 / 28.09.06
Myths of Rose mary

Today and throughout history a common association with rosemary is remembrance. We still use it to signify a special love or friendship and some countries continue to place a sprig of rosemary in the hands of the deceased before burial. Early Greek students took the meaning more literally by wearing wreaths of rosemary around their heads to stimulate their memories during exams.


Rosemary was once thought to ward off evil spirits. During the Middle Ages people slept with rosemary branches under their pillows to keep them safe from demons and nightmares. Demons can take many forms such as unpleasant odors, witchcraft and the Plague--rosemary has been burned or ingested or carried to prevent them all.


Just how rosemary received the name has differing stories behind it. One story tells us that as the Virgin Mary was fleeing to Egypt with baby Jesus she tossed her blue cloak onto a bush. The next day, flowers that had been white were blue and the herb became known as "rose of Mary." Other sources site Pliny who wanted to describe it as an herb that grew in coastal regions, or more specifically by the foam (ros) of the sea (mare).

Should you decide to grow a bit of rosemary, consider these sayings: Rosemary only grows in the gardens of the righteous. If rosemary grows vigorously in a family's garden, it means a woman heads the household. Rosemary will grow no higher than six feet in 33 years so that it doesn't stand taller than Christ. And finally, a quote from Saint Thomas Moore: "I lett it runne all over my garden wall, not onlie because my bees love it, but because 'tis an herb sacred to remembrance, and therefor to friendship."

The above taken from a search on google.

The name Rosemarinus or "dew of the sea" did not originally allude to the Virgin Mary, even though the shrub is now regarded as Mary's. Initially the name indicated Venus or Aphrodite. The rosy "dew" was the blood & semen of castrated Neptune or Poseidon which impregnated the waves, causing Aphrodite to step forth from the ocean onto the Isle of Cypros. She was greeted by naiads who draped her naked body in myrtle, but not surprisingly, in ancient portraits of Aphrodite, rosemary as well as myrtle is worked into the imagery. This is undoubtedly why Rosemary is to this day regarded as an aphrodesiac. Rosemary in relative modern times was traditionally entwined into a bride's head-wreath to encourage couples to remember their wedding vows, but this really does sound like a lingering belief in rosemary as enhancing virility & fertility.

In Greece rosemary shrubs grow to six or seven feet high & have since ancient times been associated with the entrance to the land of the dead, because aromatic herbs were used in funereal rituals to lessen the stench of decay, & rosemary is a preservative spice.

The Titaness Mnemosyne (Memory) was a cthonic goddess of the ancient Greek Maenads & Orphics. She met her worshippers at a dark pool in Tartarus & took back from them all the memories she permitted them in life, so that they would not suffer in the land of shades. This Goddess Memory (& of Unmemory) is essentially a reflex of Black Aphrodite, aka Persephone, a loving & beautiful queen of darkness. And when Shakespeare's equally lovely & deathly Ophelia says, "There's rosemary, that's for remembrance," I seriously doubt the association is concidental to Orphism.

Goddess of the pillar
 
 
Disco is My Class War
02:38 / 29.09.06
Thanks for that, Lula and others. We actually have a lovely rosemary bush that I planted, so that seems appropriate. Juniper berries are probably harder to find.

Damn, I want to say more but will have to come back later. Thanks again, though. It's very helpful.
 
 
Rigettle
08:15 / 07.10.06
Celane: 1) What do you do when a divinatory system gives you overwhelmingly negative, hope-shattering readings over and over again -- say, several weeks of nothing but Mannaz reversed, Fehu reversed, and Isa over and over?

I agree with Grant's comments about interpretation, but I have some other responses to your question.


Daily divination. Why? It sounds a bit much unless it is part of a training program. Ask yourself what is my motivation for doing this.

So it's: Trying to look at the day's lessons... in advance. Looking for "hope"? I would reframe that. It sounds as if you're trying to anticipate what is going to happen today, & want indications that your project will go well. You're setting yourself up. When the negative inverted staves pop out, naturally, you worry. Why not take the morning runes as "themes for contemplation today"? The challenge is then trying to recognise the patterns & kennings from your morning meditation as you go about your business. If you get readings that seem heavy - well, heavy stuff is going on in the world. Just because you drew Thorn inverted doesn't mean that your house is going to burn down, or that you are going to be attacked or injured in some way. Thorn (I picked a real heavy one) inverted is going on all around us all the time, it's not necessarily personal.

Another perspective on this comes from a group that I work in. We usually precede a ritual with my casting some runes. If someone new comes along I have to brief them that a load of heavy shit might appear in the reading because it usually does. But the way it works is this: the runes bring up issues around the coming work, or within the group & the process of divination revolves around our acknowledging, discussing & working with the reading. So we're heading for the woods & something comes out about being interrupted or disturbed. Then we talk about how we feel about that, remember the times that it happened in the past etc. Maybe plan things a little differently. Then on the night that doesn't happen, it's like we already dealt with that issue so it need not manifest itself. It may not sound like divination in the usual sense of the word but we've found that it works well.

Lastly, if the idea is to learn lessons from the day with a stave a day, then it may also be useful to cast the stave at the end of the day in review mode. That is an interesting exercise.
 
 
+am
13:36 / 07.10.06
Hiya. I recently obtained the fantastic Element Encyclopedia of 5000 Magic Spells, and was going to do some full moon magic tonight including the "Thessalian Trick" where water absorbs the full moon's power. However after browsing around on the internet I read somewhere that all full moon magic must be done in the 2 days or so leading up to the exact time of the full moon, which in this case was 03:04 this morning. So I am wondering, is it still worth charging water etc tonight, or would it be better to start focusing on waning-moon oriented spells? Apologies if this is a foolish question, I am new to this kind of "hands-on" magic.
 
 
illmatic
15:34 / 07.10.06
Just try it and see what happens. Don't worry too much books and formulae, just go for it.
 
 
+am
15:36 / 09.10.06
Thanks. I think thats the answer to 90% of my "stupid" magic questions, heh.
 
 
grant
16:15 / 09.10.06
If it matters, this month's full moon is believed by some to be the "mooniest" moon. Friday was the Moon Festival.

I broke out the telescope that night -- it was so blinding, I had trouble looking at it directly. Projected it on paper instead, like a solar eclipse.
 
 
Quantum
10:05 / 10.10.06
Next Friday is the 13th, so sufferers of paraskavedekatriaphobia beware. Stupid question- is it unlucky? Where does the superstition come from?
Phillip the Fair, king of France, executed hundreds of Templars by surprise on Friday October 13 1307 and got Pope Clement V to dissolve the order soon after, and so I've been thinking that massacre was the reason people consider it unlucky. But according to Popuhl Vuh the Mayan long count predicts the end of the world on Friday 13th December in six years time, so is that just a coincidence?
Since most superstitions come from the Navy I looked it up In one story a Royal Navy ship HMS Friday was laid down on a Friday, launched on a Friday and captained by a Captain Friday and was never heard of again. but why the thirteenth?
So, in Spain it's Tuesday the 13th that is unlucky, in India, Friday is Shukravar (based on Shukra, Vedic god of Venus says wikipedia) and a lot of references cite biblical sources as the reason it's unlucky, but it's a pretty widespread fear in Europe America and Australia AFAIK. Does anyone know if there's a similar fear in China, or the Middle East, or what? Is it just Christian countries?
 
  

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