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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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Gypsy Lantern
12:57 / 05.05.06
Work it out for yourself.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:04 / 05.05.06
Perhaps not particularly helpful, but its really the only way to get a feel for this stuff. Asking someone else to just dish out the mysteries of the Crossroads to you is depriving you of the opportunity to discover the nature of these things for yourself by working magically at the crossroads and with its spirits. If you want to learn about something, go there and interact with it. Figure it out. Pour rum. Have conversations. Get a feel for it. Get your understanding from working with the Crossroads itself, not some random person on the internet.
 
 
ORA ORA ORA ORAAAA!!
15:10 / 06.05.06
see, tonight, as I wandered home from somewhere else, I poured out a little rum in a little crossroads.

I arrived home wearing a dead man's slippers (having walked almost exactly a mile in them), carrying two saucepans and holding a suitcase full of a lifetime's collection of italian made suit jackets, sized for someone just a tiny bit smaller than me.

These are the things I worry about, you know?
 
 
Logos
20:59 / 06.05.06
Another answer (if I may put on my Spooky Answer Guy hat for a moment) is that sometimes one crossroads is more important than another. It depends on what you're going to do with the crossroads...where the roads lead to...where they meet. Sometimes it doesn't matter because everywhere there's a place it's the crossroads between other places and they're all hooked up together.
 
 
Unconditional Love
05:43 / 07.05.06
The intersection between this world and the world of spirit.

Consider a medieval scene, a medieval criminal hung by his neck until he chokes to death at a crossroads, his spirit passes to the world of the dead as he dies, at the same time his semen has been dripping from his cock onto the fertile earth. Folk tales would have it that a mandrake would be born at that spot as the dying mans semen fed the earth.

In death life is born and life begats death, the crossroads from one to the next, life and death intersect.

Intersection, convergence, union, polar opposites united, coming together to once again become seperate after the roads have crossed. The warmth of life leads to the coldness of death. A medium is a walking breathing crossroads, so are some magicians.

The mandrake grows up to be the usual irresponsible teenager. The dead walk among the living (cue scary music).
 
 
ORA ORA ORA ORAAAA!!
06:03 / 07.05.06
In my travels last night I also crossed one bridge and traversed one tunnel.

The bridge 'felt' very similar to the crossroads, but different. And "crossing a bridge in dead man's shoes" rang some tiny bell in the back of my mind, but I can't find anything except two 'coming soon' movies when I search for the phrase (not very in-depth, at the moment, as I'm a bit busy, though). I'm probably just remembering some issue of Hellblazer, though.

Both movies, incidentally, look very interesting.
 
 
Proinsias
13:20 / 07.05.06
Dead Megatron

This maybe a good time to dig out an old copy of Conan the Barbarian, failing that he may be a fully fledged contactable god by now.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:28 / 07.05.06
he may be a fully fledged contactable god by now.

Really? Why?
 
 
Dead Megatron
15:29 / 07.05.06
I wouldn't be all too surprised if he were. But Thulsa Doom/Toth-Amon may be listening.

Anyway, the strange serpent coincidences stopped completely shortly after I posted the question, so scrap it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:33 / 07.05.06
I wouldn't be all too surprised if he were.

Really? Why?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:41 / 07.05.06
By which I mean, What do we mean by 'god' in this context and more importantly Why are we to assume that Conan the Barbarian has become a 'fully fledged contactable god' other than what we've read in the Sacred Texts of the Trinity (Pratchett, Gaiman and The Holy George, amen).
 
 
Quantum
14:12 / 13.05.06
Conan is King not God. STRONG TRUTH!!!

Stupid religion question- which old religions featured the sacred prostitute tradition prominently?
 
 
illmatic
16:06 / 13.05.06
I suspect none of 'em: or rather that "sacred prostitute" is a very simple formulation of what was actually a complex set of phemonena.
 
 
Proinsias
09:16 / 14.05.06
Pratchett, Gaiman and The Holy George

Since when was the word of Gaiman not enough?

I conceed I was talking shit - Conan is King.I hope I have not angered Crom.
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:02 / 14.05.06
Really? Why?

I don't really. It was just a stupid joke. But, just so the subject does not go completely to waste, here's a related question: is there any pop culture character, fictional or real, that have been, to anybody's knowledge, succesfully summoned/worshiped/whatever in a god-like fashion?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:04 / 14.05.06
First define "godlike" and "successfully." I'd say that there have been any number of successful workings involving pop-culture icons and novel beings such as Fotamecus, but that these interactions differ greatly from interactions with yer actual gods for various reasons. You might profit from sitting down and reading the Post-Modern Magick thread, where the differences are discussed in some detail from various perspectives. You might also want to revisit Gods vs Superheroes thread.
 
 
Char Aina
18:53 / 14.05.06
wasnt conan written under the watchful eye of the king-man himself? i heard a while ago from someone, probably the stoatgeeze, that it was all written with conan standing over howard's desk, armed and threatening, directing the tales.

does having form for manifestation make him more contactable, d'you reckon?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:12 / 14.05.06
I guess you could set up an experiment where you try and work with Conan versus working with a sort of control fictional barbarian, someone of non-turning-up-and-shouting habits, and see what happened. Otherwise we might as well talk about who'd win a fight out of a bear and a shark.
 
 
xytar with a Z
20:18 / 14.05.06
I'll bet a Bear holding a Shark would send Conan fleeing.
 
 
Char Aina
21:23 / 14.05.06
not if he had his back to a wall, it wouldnt.
conan can kill anything in a standoff, even galactus.

apologies for the threadrot...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:29 / 14.05.06
What have I done?
 
 
Tim Tempest
23:46 / 14.05.06
Hey, sorry to interrupt any conversations here or cause threadrot, but I didn't want to start a new thread for this...I have some ideas (and questions...many questions) for creating a servitor and am wondering if anyone has any useful tips, or wants to help in the creation of said servitor. PM me if anyone is interested.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
07:18 / 15.05.06
W/regards sacred prostitution, I think there were temple prostitutes in Mesopotamia. Beyond that I'm fuzzy, although I have a mental image of erotic dancing at Egyptian funerals that might be related.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
07:46 / 15.05.06
I don't think anyone is questioning whether Conan is "contactable". Of course he's contactable. Any historical or fictional personage is contactable. But does that make him a "God" and all that the term implies. Not necessarily.
 
 
Quantum
14:05 / 15.05.06
temple prostitutes in Mesopotamia.

Me too, I'm trying to get a better knowledge about it. I'll let you know when I find out.


Can I direct you Conan summoners to this thread? You will be welcome around the campfire I am sure, bring your own ale and french fancies.
 
 
Char Aina
16:51 / 15.05.06
god-hood implies dominion, right?
could conan, being as he is the STRONGest and TRUEestof all the manly manly men, be seen as having dominion over those who pretend?
he is the barbarian king, after all...

although... as i type it it does seem a pretty hollow claim.

ach well.
 
 
grant
19:19 / 15.05.06
Stupid religion question- which old religions featured the sacred prostitute tradition prominently?

I know I've run into the thing numerous times in, basically, Bible study-type discussions regarding the bans on homosexuality. Nutshell: in Leviticus (Book of Religious Law), the homosexuality ban is stated in a context that puts it not with other forms of sexual/marital immorality, but with religious abominations & idolatry.

I *think* the phenomenon was a feature of Hellenic Middle East & Egyptian religion.

Wikipedia has more:
It was revered highly among Sumerians and Babylonians. In ancient sources (Herodotus, Thucydides) there are many traces of hieros gamos, starting perhaps with Babylon, where each woman had to reach, once a year, the sanctuary of Militta (Aphrodite or Nana/Anahita), and there have sex with a foreigner, as a sign of hospitality, for a symbolic price.

A similar type of prostitution was practiced in Cyprus (Paphos) and in Corinth, Greece, where the temple counted more than a thousand prostitutes (hyerodules), according to Strabo. It was widely in use in Sardinia and in some of the Phoenician cultures, usually in honour of the goddess ‘Ashtart. Presumably by the Phoenicians, this practice was developed in other ports of the Mediterranean Sea, such as Erice (Sicily), Locri Epizephiri, Croton, Rossano Vaglio, and Sicca Veneria. Other hypotheses regard Asia Minor, Lydia, Syria and Etruscans.

It was common in Israel too, but some prophets, like Hosea and Ezekiel, strongly fought it; it is assumed that it was part of the cults of Canaan, where a significant proportion of prostitutes were male (roughly the same proportion as there were men in society at large, i.e. about 50%).

According to the Bible, the Canaanite peoples had a system of religious prostitution. This is seen, for example, in Genesis 38:21, where Judah asks Canaanite men of Adulam "Where is the harlot, that was openly by the way side?". The Hebrew original employs the word "kedsha" in Judah's question, as opposed to the standard Hebrew "zonah". The word "Kidsha" is derived from the root KaDeSh, which signifies uniqueness and holiness; thus it possibly represents a religious prostitute, although it may be that the same rootword for 'holiness', KaDeSh, is used to express lasciviousness, being that both holiness and promiscuity can be described as 'separate', which is the real meaning of that root word.


Also sites Athenian brothels that financed temples to Aphrodite (not exactly the same thing, I think, but hey) and Indian devadasi.

More from a Christian lunatic perspective, linking hierodules (temple prostitutes) to, of all things, the Olympic torch. I kinda doubt their historical facts, but the linguistics do seem to match up.

-------


On the Conan thing, behold the high weirdness of Robert E. Howard:

One day in February 1932, while taking an after-lunch siesta in Rio Grande City, "Howard dreamed he was sitting by a campfire out on the prairie when out of the darkness stepped a barbarian wearing (black) chain-mail armor and a horned helmet."

By Robert's own account, the entity said, "I am Conan, a Cimmerian. I wish to tell you of my adventures."

Upon awakening, "Howard decided to write a series of prehistoric adventure fantasies, not unlike (his 1929) Kull stories, for such a setting would eliminate the need for accurate historical research."

Unknown to Robert, however, a similar "contact" had already taken place three years earlier, in 1929, in Bucuresti (Bucharest), Romania.

"Awakened from a sound sleep in his apartment," journalist Corneliu "Codreanu was confronted by a glowing entity in knightly armor that identified itself as 'St. Michael the Archangel.'"

The self-styled "archangel" ordered Codreanu to go to Jassy, the site of the Romanian Army's last stand in World War One, and raise a new military force to save the nation. Thus was born the Legion of St. Michael the Archangel, also known as the Iron Guard, which played a key role in the Holocaust during World War Two.

(Editor's Comment: The experiences of REH and Codreanu, along with Antonio Rivera's nighttime visit from a quadruped alien in Barcelona in 1930, certainly qualify this period as "the Era of Strange Contacts.")

"Since Howard was not good at inventing names, he often based personal and place names on historical figures and localities. He liked to assume that ancient and medieval names were derived from those of his imagined prehistoric realms, postulating that the records of the prehistoric civilization had been destroyed by invasion or natural catastrophe, surviving only in myths and legends. He wrote, 'If some cataclysm of nature were to destroy that civilization, remnants of what knowledge and stories of its greatness might well evolve into the fantastic fables that have descended to us.'"


There's more strangeness at the link.

With more (and more tenuous) Howard strangeness here, linking his strange "somnambulist states" to similar sleep-trances experienced by Edgar Rice Burroughs, during which both of them "dreamed" about reptile-men, here, getting more into the trance-channeling thing, here with a past-life recall that may describe some recently discovered Mesopotamian pyramids, and here, where we dig into Howard's possible previous life as one John Kirby O'Donnel. After being reincarnated from a prior life in Atlantis, of course.

The reading dovetailed with a recurring dream--or nightmare--Robert had, of being a Bronze Age warrior walking the stony streets of Poseidonis, the reputed capital of the lost continent of Atlantis, who had lost the woman he loved to his best friend.

Drawing on this reading, Robert also wrote Lovecraft that he once been a trooper in the Seventh Cavalry--a former Confederate soldier (from Texas, naturally--J.T.) who had "found a home in the Army" after the American Civil War and who had been killed in Montana during the Sioux War of 1876.

And that brings us to John Kirby O'Donnel, who may or may not have been the immediately previous incarnation of Robert E. Howard.

This character, sometimes referred to as "John O'Donnel," "Black John O'Donnel," "Kirby O'Donnell" or "the Black Bear," appeared in only three short stories published in Robert's lifetime. These were "Children of the Night," which appeared in Weird Tales for April-May 1931 (and which incidentally won an O. Henry Memorial Award as one of the best stories of 1931--J.T.), and "The Treasures of Tartary" and "Swords of Shahrazar," which appeared in Oriental Stories in 1932. Robert wrote several other pastiches about O'Donnel, but these did not sell.

...His next appearance, in the unpublished story "The Black Bear Bites," finds him in Hankow (one of the cities on the Yangtze River that makes up China's Tri-Cities of Wuhan--J.T.). When his friend and fellow American, Bill Lannon, is found dead, John goes looking for the killer at the riverfront estate belonging to a Chinese smuggler, Yun Yotai....

John is detected and captured by Yun's men. But before he can be killed, the riverfront estate is raided by the Chinese police. Yun and the lama are killed. And when Chinese policeman Kang Yao unmasks the black-robed figure, "the skin beneath the mask was neither yellow nor brown, the Black Lama was a white man," a European described earlier in the story as a "sophisticated clubman."

(Editor's Comment: The irony here is that it is John O'Donnel himself who turns out to be Yog-Sothoth's instrument of vengeance.)

But what's really weird about "The Black Bear Bites" is that the police raid in the story actually happened. And it happened a little over a year before Robert E. Howard was born in Texas.

In 1904, several secret societies in China were plotting against the Manchu dynasty, with support from the Grand Orient (Masonic) Lodge of Paris, most notably the Ko Lao Hui (Translated: Elder Brothers Society) and the Tung Zhou Hui (Translated: Society Against the Common Enemy).

According to The Cambridge History of China, "In Hupei (province), a student revolutionary named Wu Luchen, who had graduated from a Japanese military academy, returned home to serve in the government's New Army. He then used his influence to obtain positions in the military for some of his comrades and to agitate among the troops. His friends held meetings at schools in various parts of the province, where they preached revolution and distributed copies of radical journals and tracts. By the summer of 1904, they had a thriving organization, which they called the Institute for the Diffusion of Science (Ko Zhueh Puzhi So, my thanks to Chen Jilin--J.T.) in order to masquerade as a study society."

"An ambitious plot was designed for simultaneous uprisings in six cities in Hunan, and it was hoped these could be coordinated with similar efforts in Hupei, Szechwan, Kiangsi, Nanking and Shanghai. It cannot be determined precisely how far these plans got, although they at least chose a date (the empress dowager's seventieth birthday, which fell on 16 November 1904); but in late October (1904) government agents learned of the plot and promptly acted to crush it."

So it appears that Freemasonry sent their agent, Eric Brand, the "sophisticated clubman," to give the Chinese rebels an assist. The weapons in Yun's warehouse probably came from a French Foreign Legion depot in neighboring Vietnam. And the "Black Lama" masquerade was Eric Brand's idea to help bring in some more recruits. But the plot failed, and Masonic revolution in China had to wait another six years for Dr. Sun Yatsen's uprising of October 10, 1910.
 
 
Quantum
20:38 / 15.05.06
I hadn't heard about the cults of Canaan before, ta grant. I also didn't know Howard and Lovecraft were correspondents, time for a wikipedia paperchase, hours lost absorbed in all the things I want to know and a million more I didn't know were out there for me to know.
If the rest of the internet shut down overnight but Barbelith and wikipedia stayed up, I honestly don't think I'd notice for days.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
21:07 / 15.05.06
Since Grant mentioned the Indian devadasi 'tradition', I thought I'd follow up - as I have been examining the available ethnological/historical material dealing with devadasis for a couple of years now.

Devadasi can be literally translated as 'a servant of god'. But colloquially, the word refers to women considered married to god. They are sometimes referred to as being nitya sumangali - eternally free from widowhood.

There is a great deal of debate on the historical status of Devadasis. Some scholars believe that devadasis were originally, an important aspect of temple life, performing ritual functions such as dressing the deities, in addition to performing the arts of classical dance & singing (and teaching devotional singing & dancing). According to some commentators, the devadasis were a feature of Saivite, Sakta & Vaisnava religious practice, and devadasis had an auspicious status and conferred blessings at weddings.

Europeans appeared to have been suspicious of temple devadasis and their role in Indian religious life, confirming Europeans' suspicions about the immorality of Indian religion. The French missionary Abbé Dubois condemned them in no uncertain terms:

"Once the devadasis' temple duties are over, they open their cells of infamy, and frequently convert the temple itself into a stew. A religion more shameful or indecent has never existed amongst a civilized people."

Kay Jordan's study From Sacred Servant to Profane Prostitute-The Changing Legal Status of the Devadasis: 1857-1947 examines the change in status of the Devadasis as a consequence of British and Hindu reformist influence. She notes that an early attitude of the British administration that: These girls, by definite title or by prescription, occupy a defined position and perform defined duties in Hindu temples and from that point of view, their services must be considered lawful and necessary and are also recognized by the Civil Courts as being so shifted, eventually, under pressure from social reform organisations towards condemnation and legal action. In 1929, a brahmin woman, Dr. Muthulakshmi Reddy, launched a vocal anti-dance campaign, demanding the abolition of the Devadasi system. According to Jordan, Dr. Reddy's campaign prompted scores of pleas and protests written by Devadasis. She recounts one such plea from a Devadasi association:

"Our institution is similar to the mutts presided by sanyasis for the propagation of religion. We can be compared to female sanyasis who are attached to respective temples. We marry none but God and become devotees of God."

"They described themselves" writes Jordan, as "guardian angels of dance and music with a devotion that bears comparison with the ardor of the pundits reading Vedas in preference to modern pursuits." They quoted the Saiva Agamas to substantiate their scriptural origins-"Shiva said: 'To please me during my puja, arrangements must be made daily for shudda nritta (dance). This should be danced by females born of such families and the five acharyas should form the accompaniments.' Since these Agamas are revered by every Hindu, however modern and educated they are, what reason can there be for our community not to thrive and exist as necessary adjuncts of temple service?" They averred Dr. Reddy's proposed abolition of their tradition punished the many for actions of a few, and painfully assessed: "In proposing this legislation, the legislators attempt to do away for ever with our sect. Such legislation is unparalleled in the civilized world."

Despite the protests, Dr. Reddy's campaign prevailed, and initial punitive legislation in 1927 was followed by an outright ban in 1948 with the Madras Devadasis Act:

"Dancing by a woman, with or without kumbhaharathy (pot- shaped temple arati lamp), in the precincts of a temple or other religious institution, or in any procession of a Hindu deity, idol or object of worship installed in any such temple or institution or at any festival or ceremony held in respect of such a deity, idol or object of worship, is hereby declared unlawful... Any person who performs, permits or abets [temple dancing] is punishable with imprisonment for... six months.

...A woman who takes part in any dancing or music performance... is regarded as having adopted the life of prostitution and becomes incapable of entering into a valid marriage and... th e performance of any [marriage] ceremony... whether [held] before or after this Act is hereby declared unlawful and void."

One of the last portraits of the institution of temple devadasis comes from the anthropologist Frédérique Marglin, in her book, Wives of the God/King, a study of the devadasis of the Jagannath Temple at Puri. According to Marglin, the devadasis continually stressed that they did not have "relations" with temple pilgrims, and if they did so, they were dismissed. However, they did speak of having sexual relationships with priests. As one informant, Radha, said:

"It is a custom for us to keep relations with a brahmin temple servant, but never with 'outsiders.' Why should I hide these things? When I had my puberty, I exchanged garlands with this priest [a widower] in whose brother's house I live and I have lived within the boundaries of that relationship always."

The Puri devadasis explained that they grew up with the priests and felt a natural closeness to them as both had dedicated their lives to being temple servants. The brahmins' wives were fully aware of these "second wife" situations. Until "reformers" came, they were never a moral concern. Samita Sen, in her 1998 essay, Offences against Marriage examines how a wide range of social practices - in particular those relating to non-marital cohabitation were seen as abberations, as they deviated from both high-caste practices and textual prescriptions, and were declared legally invalid.

Contemporary devadasis appear to have lost status and now the term is widely seen as being synonymous with prostitution and slavery. In 1992, the Karnataka state government passed the "Prohibition of Dedication" Act which criminalises the activities of a devadasi, but not those of her patrons. The group Human Rights Watch says that many contemporary devadasis belong to low-caste groups such as Dalits and are forced into becoming prostitutes for upper-caste community groups and that many end up in urban brothels. "When a devadasi is raped, it is not considered rape. She can be had by any man at any time."

more info here
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:55 / 16.05.06
More on sacred prostitutes:

The Wikipedia article should not be taken as 'gospel'. There has been a good deal of research that has critiqued many of the assertions made here. See for example Julia Assante's From Whores to Hierodules: The Historiographic Invention of Mesopotamian Female Sex Professionals (in Ancient Art and Its Historiography, Cambridge University Press).

Also, a good deal depends on how much store one sets by Herodotus:

There is one custom amongst these people which is wholly shameful: every woman who is a native of the country must once in her life go and sit in the temple of Aphrodite [Ishtar] and there give herself to a strange man." (Herodotus, Book I, para 199)

It should be remembered though, that Herodotus, like other Greek authors, often wrote of other cultures in such a way as to demonstrate the 'superiority' of his own, and allegations of sexual licentiousness can be seen as part of this.

There has been a long tendency in Assyrian studies see see any appearence of female temple specialists as hierodules. However, as far as I'm aware, there's no actual textual evidence for the link between female temple functionaries and cultic prostitution.

The reference to Corinth as a centre of sacred prostitution comes from Strabo:

And the temple of Aphrodite [in Corinth] was so rich that it owned more than a thousand temple-slaves, courtesans (hetairai), whom both women and men had dedicated to the goddess. And therefore it was also on account of these women that the city was crowded with people and grew rich.

Strabo is writing about a phenonema from the distant past. Also, nowhere does Strabo say that the Hetairai conducted their transactions in sacred spaces, nor that their trade was considered to be sacred. They may well have been slaves owned by the temple. Although prostitutes appear in Greek literature as devotees of Aphrodite, this does not necessarily mean that they were 'sacred'.

Article examining the construction of 'sacred prostitutes' (with extensive bibliography) here
 
 
illmatic
10:10 / 16.05.06
I can’t match T the T’s scholarship but I have to ask this question – I think we should hold it in our minds whenever examining these issues - to what degree do we want to believe in “sacred porstitues”? It stikes me as a “back projection” that fulfils a lot of the fantasties that pagans and occultists – those dissatisfied with the Xtian based sexual morality – often weave around historical phenomena.....

We have here an idelaised pagan society, who were presumably “unrepressed”, a society which advocates a union between the divine and sexuality etc. - the clear opposite of Christianity. We're on very loaded territory in terms of wish-fulfilment.
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
07:26 / 17.05.06
Hi, this is to Mordant & Gipsy LAntern, who have been saying that they have experienced the godness of the gods, without rational thinking in between.

Well, this is i'm going to ask is surely an idea made up of prejudices, but since i've been surfing on chaos magic(k) texts, they have seen to me a little far-fetched (if we assume we're moving on an already far-fetched territory). I mean, by example, Phil Hine seems to me (and yes, is a prejudice) a little bit repetitive, always telling the same things (not to mention his 6D theories and his claim to be a 'independent scientific'; hey, i can believe in a lot of things, including god/alien/spirit contacts, but i can't believe hine being a physicist). But yes, i'm a fascist with lots of prejudices.

From my limited experience dealing with paranormal things, all that i can say is that, despite the intellectual interpretation you'll assume (another who bores me quite a lot is Jan Fries), there are few basic things to get the things going on: intention and a physical/mental preparation (qi gong and things like that) ... and so, let the things go (another thing that medes me suspicious is that almost every magician writes a book).

That are my basis. I want to get in this world but i don't wanna spend so much time with a lot of books, rituals and all of this. I intuite that shaman's approach is more immersive. But they're only intuitions.

So the question i want to make to gipsy and mordant is what things on ritual magic(k) they think can be dismissed as redundancies, and what are the working ones. Another question is realated to the use of psychedelics. Dou you use them on the rituals? If you doesn't, how do you get in trance?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:15 / 17.05.06
I'm not really sure what you are asking me there. Can you be more clear?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:00 / 17.05.06
I don't know what you mean by "The Godness of the Gods without rational thinking in between". Explain.

i've been surfing on chaos magic(k) texts, they have seen to me a little far-fetched

What, specifically, do you think is far-fetched and what criteria are you judging that on?

there are few basic things to get the things going on: intention and a physical/mental preparation (qi gong and things like that)

No. I wouldn't say Qi Gong is an aid to deity contact in any direct sense. I would also go against the grain of much western writing on the subject and say that meditation and visualisation have also got fuck all to do with being able to talk to spirits.

another thing that medes me suspicious is that almost every magician writes a book).

No. Almost every magician doesn't write books. It's just that the only magicians you ever hear about are the ones who are also writers and who are prepared to talk about what they do. The ones that don't write books just get on about their business and you never hear about them.

I want to get in this world but i don't wanna spend so much time with a lot of books, rituals and all of this. I intuite that shaman's approach is more immersive

It's not very clear what world it is that you want to get into. I'm also not sure what you mean exactly when you talk about not wanting "books and rituals" in preference to a "shaman's approach". Could you elaborate on that a bit more? What sort of magic are you trying to do? Which deities are you interested in approaching? You need to get that clear before you sort out anything else. You talk about intention, but it doesn't come across like you really have your intention sorted out. What do you want?

what things on ritual magic(k) they think can be dismissed as redundancies, and what are the working ones

Why don't you experiment and find out what works for you and what doesn't? Why do you want someone else to tell you their truth rather than putting the time and effort in to discover your own? Is oil painting a redundancy now that we have photoshop? You will tend to find that everyone who does this stuff has their own specific dynamics for speaking to the Spirits. Their own set of things that they do to get into the right place for Spirit contact to occur, and their own way of operating. It's all just different routes to the same destination. But you have to find your own method of making contact through experiment, trial and error. As I said in another thread, the price of admission to the mysteries is being astute enough to figure out where the door is and walk through it. If you can't find the table, you don't get to play.

Another question is realated to the use of psychedelics. Dou you use them on the rituals? If you doesn't, how do you get in trance?

No. If you need psychedelics to do this stuff you are a rubbish, laughable magician. I'm not averse to psychedelics, but you need to be able to communicate with the Gods without having to rely on such things as an amplification. Nobody can teach you this. You have to find it for yourself.

PS: Never diss Mr Hine. He'll climb in through your window at night and fuck you up.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:04 / 17.05.06
i can't believe hine being a physicist

Why not? Why does being a magician exclude having a scientific bent? I'd say that a magician needs to have a scientific approach to hir work.

another who bores me quite a lot is Jan Fries

Oh, dear. Bad sign. Fries is a cracking author, IMO--he's very accessible, sets out his work in a very understandable and easy-to-follow way. However, he's also very clear as to how much work you need to take on to be an effective magician and likes to recommend such unthinkable hardships as walks in the country and regular exercise. Is that what's putting you off, chum?

I want to get in this world but i don't wanna spend so much time with a lot of books, rituals and all of this.

Mala leche, friend s3r3bro. You can sometimes make a certain amount of progress at the beginner stage making it up as you go along. Many people do. They get a few impressive results, and decide: "Oh! So this is what real magic is. I don't need to read all those fusty old books or do any of that tedious groundwork. Those old nincompoops of magicians were just dressing everything up to make it look more impressive." And off they go.

But sooner or later you're probably going to want to dig deeper than your own made-up spells. Either you'll get curious, or something will appear to Go Horribly Wrong and you'll want to know why and how to fix it, or that beginner's luck will simply run out. You'll either start cracking the books... or you'll get bored and wander away from magic altogether.

I intuite that shaman's approach is more immersive. But they're only intuitions.

Please clarify what you mean by 'shaman' and 'immersive.'

what things on ritual magic(k) they think can be dismissed as redundancies, and what are the working ones.

Oh, that's very simple. The redundancies are those things which are redundant and the working elements are those that work.

Another question is realated to the use of psychedelics. Dou you use them on the rituals? If you doesn't, how do you get in trance?

I personally do not use psychedelics at present, although I may use them in the future. I don't always use trancework in any case. These days I prefer exitory trances generated by movement, or heightened states induced through mild ordeal work. There are thousands of perfectly effective ways to achieve a trance; you have to find the ones that work for you.

s3r3bro, there are no shortcuts. There's no free lunch. There's no stripped-down, bare-bones, one-size-fits all magical system that will get you round the tedious business of having to learn, practice, and think things through.
 
  

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