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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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Closed for Business Time
16:24 / 11.09.07
Hello lovelies!

I've got two stupid questions actually, so bear with me.

One: Does anyone have any suggestions for looking into anything and everything Temple-y to do with earthquakes and tsunamis? Especially from modern times, say 19th c onwards? Doesnt have to be though. I'm interested in anything from Forteana to folklore, myths to MJKX, spells to spiels.

And two: What if any magical metamodels are (and aren't, for that matter) looking into? I'm talking about stuff like Carroll's metamodel with Spirits, Energy, Information etc as distinct magical onto-epistemologies. Any non-western would be aces.

Thank you sisters, brothers and luminous others!
 
 
Ticker
19:04 / 11.09.07
there's some cool youtube videos of pre earthquake ufo/lights in south america. is that the sort of thing you're after?

And two: What if any magical metamodels are (and aren't, for that matter) looking into? I'm talking about stuff like Carroll's metamodel with Spirits, Energy, Information etc as distinct magical onto-epistemologies. Any non-western would be aces.

this is a huge question and so I'm finding it difficult to give you anything useful. I personally find Raven Kaldera's work on the Ordeal Path very useful as a modern revisitation of ancient practices. I'm not sure if that's the sort of thing you're looking for?

what are your goals?
 
 
Princess
19:21 / 11.09.07
Probably this is my tired eyes, but I don't understand the second question. Can you refrase it for me?

Regarding the first, I'd probably link it straight to Poseidon. Not at all modern though.

I've also got something in my head reminding me about the stomach and how it is linked to earthquakes? I don't think that's something I've made up, but I find myself completely unable to think what I'm on about.
 
 
EmberLeo
19:57 / 11.09.07
I want to know if "Gahonda" is spelled correctly, and if it's an alternate name for a more familiar angel.

I have no way of finding out if He has another name until I speak with the fellow who introduced me again.

*shrugs* I shall have to let it go as a mystery for now, I suppose.

--Ember--
 
 
trouser the trouserian
20:23 / 11.09.07
b>I'm interested in anything from Forteana to folklore, myths to MJKX, spells to spiels.

How's about Tunguska ?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
20:32 / 11.09.07
there's some cool youtube videos of pre earthquake ufo/lights in south america. is that the sort of thing you're after?

Yes, thanks, that would be one of the types of things I'd like to know more about from on here. Any favourites of yours? I found one Haiku quoted in a seismology paper on earthquake lights that I like:

The earth speaks softly
To the mountain
Which trembles
And lights the sky


(not sure about the author, as it is merely quoted from another paper in the one I've read)

On the metamagical models: Yeah, I was too vague maybe? I don't know RK's work on the Ordeal Path, so I can't comment on whether that's what I did indeed mean- but I'll check that out and give some feedback a little later. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of P Carroll and the grand theorising of K Wilbur? More the systematic typology of magics and workings than the actual practices I reckon.
I'm imagining something like a comparative anthropology, history and psychology of magics all rolled into one, and I'd rather hear it from a scholar-practitioner than a non-practicing scholar. Obviously a lot of people (I hope?) have come to fill both those pairs of boots at one and the same time? Auntie Beasty, where art thou?

what are your goals?

For numero uno it is related to my new job, which is about the human perceptions, representations and behaviours that accompany earthquake disasters and tsunamis and the risks thereof. When I say job I also mean that it might turn into a part-time PhD in social psychology as well.

For numero dos I was just being curious.

Many thanks for the input.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
20:40 / 11.09.07
trouser: Yeah, I'm aware of Tunguska. Apparently it created a quake at 5.0 on the Richter Scale. That coupled with an explosion supposedly the equivalent of 10-20 megatons of TNT would have been pretty nasty had any big cities been close. (I'm quoting from the Wikipedia article.)

There's a helluva lot of material for that event, that's for sure. The only snag from a my perspective is that compared to other seismic events it's pretty damn rare, so there's unlikely to be data from comparable but different events.

Thanks for the link tho!
 
 
trouser the trouserian
20:54 / 11.09.07
I'm talking about stuff like Carroll's metamodel with Spirits, Energy, Information etc as distinct magical onto-epistemologies.

Wasn't it Ralph Tegtmeier that did the "models of magic" article?

googling...

Models of Magic - yep, Frater U.D aka Ralph Tegtmeier
 
 
Closed for Business Time
21:37 / 11.09.07
Argh! Of course, you are right, trouser. Thanks for setting me right.
 
 
shockoftheother
23:21 / 11.09.07
(This post gets a bit rambly, sorry -- a lot of this is cribbing from my current work, posts/emails i've written elsewhere and two papers i'm currently writing, so there's quite a lot of stuff going on here...)

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of P Carroll and the grand theorising of K Wilbur? More the systematic typology of magics and workings than the actual practices I reckon.
I'm imagining something like a comparative anthropology, history and psychology of magics all rolled into one, and I'd rather hear it from a scholar-practitioner than a non-practicing scholar.


Hehe. Big ask. I think there's a lot of stuff that exists in this area, and the categorical, semi-systematic study of magic as a distinct ontology / epistemology has made something of a transition from the domain of the practitioner to the academic, and there exists an interesting conversation taking place these days between academics and practitioners. Of interest to me is Alex Owen's analysis of Crowley's deconstruction of the self as a modernist phenomenon (pp215-220 of The Place of Enchantment, the final chapter of which articulates an interesting theoretical model, using - IIRC - Lyotard as the basis to articulate a theoretical basis for the stdy of esotericism). A lot of the doctorates supervised by Ronald Hutton seem to be aiming to pioneer in this area, but the problem with crossover fields is that they tend to be subject to a lot of problems: emerging fields often attract second or third rate scholars at first, and practitioners often play fast and loose with academic methodology and frequently lack the framework for truly incisive analysis. Conversely academia still finds it difficult to engage with the accounts and experiences of practitioners entirely seriously - there tends to be a myopia that affects the ability to understand that the aims of the academic and the mystic are different.

I'd say, before the rest of this answer, that I'm both an academic and a practitioner, so I *do* think the two can cross over, though I think there *are* certain issues that arise.

I think looking at Carroll's models of magic is probably something of a dead end as far as this goes, as Carroll's system of thinking doesn't really engage with the long history of western magic before and up to the Golden Dawn - valuable though Chaos Magic was, I think it represented the first intimations of a postmodern turn on magic that actually sort of fails to make the leap to engage with the real problems postmodernism presents, as well as relying on a strawman caricature of its direct antecedents. W.B. Crow's History of Magic represents a sort of attempted systematisation of western magical history, which probably says more about Crow's ideology than the history of the magic in the west. Interesting read, though.

But I think there is a constant instinct in the intellectual history of magic to rcome to terms with those who have gone before, whether it's in terms of the catena aurea - the mythical chain of initiatic predecessors - or more frequently a synthesis of one's *textual* predecessors. I think it's important to realise there *has* been a more-or-less continuous magico-intellectual tradition that has been transmitted through texts, manuscripts, bound up in the history of Christianity and early science.

It is true that the WMT writers – and I think particularly of the matrix of thought and dogma descended through Dion Fortune and those organisations that arose from her – would frequently give one the impression that everything started with a shadowy Rosicrucian cipher in the late 19th century. Certainly the GD’s mania for syncretism seems to betoken a need for the *creation* of a system rather than a continuation of something already existing. I would, however, argue that it demonstrates a couple of key trends: the continuation of a tradition of re-reading and the creation of a framework into which to bring various traditions together.

Something that perhaps gets lost in contemporary books on magic is that the western tradition of magic (and there is a western tradition) hasn’t always been predominantly about self-illumination and the various solitary and solipsistic activities that concept suggests; historically, western magic has largely been balanced between communication and action on the one hand, and the illumination of man on the other. It is only in the Victorian era that these twin functions get severed

The sources and roots of the Western tradition are diverse. There is the obvious Hermetic stream, coming from 1st-3rd century Alexandria, through the Greek Magical Papyri, and the various texts attributed to Hermes Trismegistus. Ficino, the Florentine Renaissance magician-scholar wrote, in his introduction to his translation of the Corpus Hermeticum, that Trismegistus was the first among philosophers to turn “… from physical and mathematical topics to contemplation of things divine, and the first to discuss with great wisdom the majesty of God, the orders of demons and the transformation of souls.” (Ficino 1576, cf translation and commentary in Copenhaver 1992)

Though the majority of the philosophical Hermetica do not concern themselves explicitly with magic, there are passages which do allude to practice, in particular the famous and explicitly magical ‘god-making’ passage in the Asclepius (Ascl. 23-24, see also Plotinus, Enneads IV.3.11); the text also contains the celebrated passage beginning “Propter haec, o Asclepi…” (Ascl 6), which was immensely influential on the renaissance magicians’ understanding of man.

Though the Greek Magical Papyri have only been rediscovered and made accessible relatively recently, a great deal of the technical hermetica were preserved by Arab authors who alluded to Hermes, such as Geber, Al-Kindi and Abu Mashar, and their writings were influential in Europe during the middle ages, and, more explicitly, versions of the Emerald Tablet and the manuscripts of the Picatrix and its astrological magic were circulating alongside other more obscure tracts attributed to Hermes from the eleventh century onwards (cf Thorndike II 214-229). (One might speculate about the origins of the rosicrucian myth, as it has obvious and demonstrable parallels with Arabic myths about Iamblichus.)

I should also point out that the Western tradition has its roots in neoplatonic pagan Theurgy as expressed in particular by Iamblichus and Proclus. Iamblichus’ Theurgia was particularly influential on later magicians, as it is the first articulation of a philosophy that puts magic (a magic of communication with spirits and Gods, no less) at its centre, and discusses the hierarchy of spirits, the effects of possession and the invocation of spirits in the most enthusiastic terms:

“A god, an angel, and a good daemon instruct man in what their proper essence consists… Angels and daemons always receive truth from the Gods, so that they never assert anything contrary to this.” (Iamblichus II.10)

Proclus sounds strikingly modern when he writes as follows:

“…there are men who are possessed and who receive a divine spirit. Some receive it spontaneously, like those who are said to be ‘seized by God’ […] There are others who work themselves into a state of inspiration by deliberate action. In order for a Theagogy and an inspiration to take effect, they must be accompanied by a change in consciousness.” (quoted by Psellus, published in des Places’ Oracles Chaldaïques)

and he also notes that “…by observing such things and connecting them to the appropriate heavenly beings, the ancient wise men brought divine powers into the region of mortals, attracting them through likeness. For likeness is sufficient to join beings to one another.”

Copenhaver (1988) has demonstrated that Proclus and Iamblichus both had influence on later magicians, especially Ficino and Agrippa. However, beyond cosmology and philosophy, there seems to have been scanty practical experiments in magic that come down to us outside of the PGM. Though the astrological magic of the Picatrix was to have a significant influence on the Renaissance magicians, it is to the medieval period that we owe much of our tradition’s history of practical magic.

The medieval period sees the continuation of the pseudepigraphic tradition (ie, attributing authorship to legendary figures – Enoch, Noah, Hermes) and the emergence of a new magical figure – King Solomon. From the thirteenth to the seventeenth century, a variety of books of ritual magic proliferated, all attributed to the Biblical King. These were condemned in no uncertain terms by various scholastic writers, including (ironically, given his reputation) Albertus Magnus, Guillaume d’Auvergne and Roger Bacon. The famous Keys of Solomon represent the preoccupation of magicians until the 19th century – communication with spirits, and getting things done, largely through the evocation of spirits and the construction of talismans. The spiritual exaltation of the magician is not neglected, but it is complemented by action. For a better picture of this stream of thought see Clare Fanger’s Conjuring Spirits: Texts and Traditions of Medieval Ritual Magic.

Particular mention should again be made of the Picatrix here, which seems to have been the link between the preserved hermetic traditions and astrological magic of the Arabic system of thought and the Neoplatonic magical revival of the Renaissance.

There is not space to explain in depth the rebirth of magic in the Renaissance, and a large number of books have been written on the subject, in particular by D.P. Walker and Frances Yates. There are relatively few works which examine the complex magical thought of Pico della Mirandola and Marsilio Ficino in real depth, but the magic proposed by Ficino is primarily sympathetic and astrological, involving the making of talismans and the use of sympathetic substances. His magic involves the freeing and exaltation of the human soul through the use of supernatural forces, essentially a Christianised form of Hermetic thought (See in particular De Vita… 3.26)

Pico is largely responsible for the introduction of Cabala to the western tradition, and in his 26 Conclusiones Magicae, he argues that there is nothing more powerful to prove the divinity of Christ than Cabala and magic (CM 9), and distinguishes between lawful natural magic and unlawful, diabolic magic. (An act of intellectual prestidigitation originally carried out by Ficino). In his Oration on the Dignity of Man, Pico creates a great, heterodox synthesis, stretching from the Cabala to Zoroaster, and is responsible for the image of the exalted magus in ecstasy: “As the farmer weds the elm to the vines, even so does the magus wed earth to heaven, that is, he weds lower things to the endowments and powers of higher things.”

We should also take in the influx of texts on Angelic magic in the Renaissance. Though angelic magic had always been a theme of medieval magical literature, it is the renaissance that sees the great flourishing of Angelic and celestial magic, from Trithemius through Agrippa and onwards. Agrippa, of course, is the great synthesiser of the diverse medieval traditions of magical thought and cosmology, and his three books give the data of the magical tradition, but not its method. The notorious ‘fourth Book’, not written by Agrippa, but attributed to him, demonstrates how the traditional method of evocation suggested in the Solomonic manuscripts as well as other sources (particularly Abano) could be used to make Agrippa’s static data operative.

The conclusion should not be drawn that because the historical published books on magic are tables of correspondence, catalogues or systems of cosmology, little in the way of practical magic was carried out. The risks of committing method to paper should be obvious; it is only in the manuscript traditions, Solomonic and otherwise, that we have evidence that magic was performed. Interestingly, though the philosophy and forms change, the core of this tradition remains the same, the use of sympathetic materials in talismanic magic and the evocation of spirits. With regard to the latter, we come to Dee and his angelic conversations. I do not propose to examine Dee at length, but it should be observed that he unites the desire for spiritual illumination, insight into the universe and similar aims with a magical system that includes catalogues of angels to help discover treasure and cure sickness.

Through examination of the prolific manuscript trail, it becomes quite clear that throughout the Renaissance and through to the present day, there have been groups of magicians working with the evocation of Angels and demons, and this, I suspect, is where the historical core of the Western tradition of magic lie, suspended between magic as a process of illumination, magic as a process of communication and magic as a process of action within a community with its associated needs and desires - Ashmole relates having met an old woman who was a girl when Dee was an old man, and she noted that members of the community used to go to him for advice and the resolution of disputes.

Note that Skinner and Rankine have published some manuscripts from this tradition, though the claims made for them are not necessarily justifiable. They remain moderately interesting as the documents of a previously unknown working group of magicians. Crowley wrote in a letter to Karl Germer in June 1947, “Magick is the process of getting into communication with individuals who are on a higher plane than ours. Mysticism is the raising of oneself to their level.” -- which seems to be his own way of coming to terms with his particular understanding of the history of western magic. Typical Crowley in that there is no thought given to one's responsibilitiesto those on the same plane as oneself.

I mentioned above that the tradition of Western magic is one of re-reading. The notion of individual ‘systems of magic’ is a relatively novel one, and really comes in to occult thought with the Theosophical Society. Prior to the advent of Madam Blavatsky and her crew of secret yogic masters, the habit of most western magicians was to read all the various texts that came down to them as representatives of a single prisca theologia, an ancient revelation. Pico’s thought is an excellent example of this process.

While it cannot be said that each magician is part of a tradition of systematised knowledge passed from mouth to ear, it can be discerned that central to the thought-process of each magician I have mentioned is an attempt to synthesise what they had received from various texts. The scope of the Golden Dawn’s synthesis – pretty much everything they could get their hands on – tends to obscure that there is a tradition from which it descends. However, to a certain extent it could be argued that the Golden Dawn also reintroduced into magic something that had been missing in the magic of the Renaissance and Enlightenment – in its reclamation of the notion of the Mysteries (using the titles of the officers of Eleusis and inspired by its complex initiatory rituals) it placed the magician in a communal, ethical and spiritual context that had been missing. Its reintroduction of the classical gods of Greece and Egypt and use of the Chaldean Oracles and similar texts reclaimed the (explicitly pagan) Theurgy of Iamblichus and Proclus, and perhaps unintentionally set the trajectory for 20th century magic.

What is the mode of re-reading today? It seems that (or one would at least hope that) the dogmatic claims of Peter Carroll-style chaos magic have been booted to one side to give way to something less like mass cultural rape, and that magic is being approached with a new emphasis on the body and especially possession and communication. Do I feel at the end of a long chain of tradition, doing something ancient when performing the pentagram ritual, or meditating on the form of the four elements, or calling on one of the spirits of the seven planets? Emphatically yes, though I may not be meditating as did Iamblichus on the reflection of light on water, nor calling on the spirits in the same way as Ficino did, what we call on is the same. New things occur too: Babalon perhaps qualifies as a new goddess, but then Marinette never saw Guinea.

It's simply a personal thing, to some extent. I sympathise with the feeling that the tedious Victorian gliding and elaborate speeches are rather a case of digging in the rubble. But the things on which we call, the stuff we actually do... that's when I feel that sense of being one in a long line. It ain't in the colour scales, baby, it ain't in the numbers or the papers, the lineages or the histories. It's in the mysteries. Voodoo has it right when it calls the loa 'les mystères' - it's in the voice with which we speak, the nature of our communication, the things to which we talk and what arises out of that.

The scope of this post has been limited by considerations of space and my relative laziness. I have not discussed ‘folk magic’ or alchemy, nor has my history been exhaustive. Folk Magic is particularly interesting, in that it develops in an intellectual climate less affected by the anxieties associated with literacy, the word and the theological 'rightness' of what's being done, while still participating in the same cultural stream. I personally find it particularly interesting when the 'shiny' bits of occult texts - sigils from Aggripa, or magical names - turn up on bits of tin or parchment in old farmhouse roofs.

More to be said on this, I think, particular in terms of the 20th century recension (a better term than metamodel, I think) of magic and what I see as developing trends in the field, in particular an awareness and response to the magician as powerful solipsist which I see happening all around me. As well as the reemergence of tikkun ha-olam as the centre of magical practice (I've articulated this in my own practice as the re-membering of Dionysus).

Meanwhile some interesting books to read:

-Alex Owen: The Place of Enchantment: British Occultism and the Culture of the Modern
-Tanya Luhrmann: Persuasions of the Witch's Craft
-Richard Kieckhefer: Magic in the Middle Ages
-Nikki Bado-Fralick: Coming to the Edge of the Circle: A Wiccan Initiation Ritual
-Edward Peters: The Magician, the Witch, and the Law
-Gabor Klaniczay: The Uses of Supernatural Power: The Transformation of Popular Religion in Medieval and Early-Modern Europe
-Georg Luck: Ancient Pathways and Hidden Pursuits: Religion, Morals, and Magic in the Ancient World

That reading list is pretty heavily biased to my interests, but there's a lot of good stuff in there, treading the boundaryline between anthropology, history and evidence of practice. There are a number of theoretical conflicts going on in some of the books above, mostly an insurrection against Frazer or Durkheim but I think it could be interesting to read Bourdieu alongside Luhrmann or Luck.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
06:41 / 12.09.07
I can only bow deeply and sit back and read in delight. Thank you so very much. I'll come back with a few comments after I've had my morning coffee!
 
 
Quantum
16:07 / 12.09.07
Through examination of the prolific manuscript trail

Talking of which, has anyone come across a timeline of famous magicians and famous books? Like a thumbnail diagram of the golden chain? I don't want to make one if I can find one (shockoftheother, I am looking at you obvs.) and it seems the sort of thing occult scholars would do.
 
 
EvskiG
17:50 / 12.09.07
There's one in The Complete Magician's Tables, going from King Solomon and Empedocles to Francis X. King.

Also has separate tables for Kabbalists (Jewish and Christian), Astrologers, and Alchemists.
 
 
shockoftheother
18:18 / 12.09.07
I've not looked at Skinner's version, though flicking through it in Watkins the other day I noticed a couple of errors that were pretty obvious. I might pick it up and go through it more thoroughly at a later date. Various magical organisations have somewhat idiosyncratic versions of it, the Aurum Solis drew one up which was interesting, though I can't find a copy at the moment.

A really accurate one would be difficult to draw up in some senses because one of the recurrent themes in the WMT is of mythic books -- like the Book of Enoch exercised considerable influence over renaissance magicians despite them having no idea of the contents of the Slavonic or Ethiopic Books of Enoch. Specific manuscript trails - say, the MS sources of the Goetia - are in themselves quite complex, and considerable effort has gone into establishing trails for the more famous ones, but it's a continuing and ongoing series of close textual analyses. I actually do keep a few notes towards developing a family tree, but it's very far from complete.

A basic tree would probably trace the roots of the Hermetica, the Merkavah, the proliferation of medieval Solomonic and Mosaic grimoires, the crossover between devotio moderna and 'magic', the Florentine renaissance, German alchemy, Rosicrucianism, English Masonry, then through the public MS collections of thelate 18th and 19th centuries to the present day. Even that itself is a gross oversimplification of a series of complex relationships that need to account for the copying processes and paratextual transmissions. A good start is Thorndike's History of Magic and Experimental Science, from which one can draw a reasonable historical framework to play with.

I'd also suggest that sufficient attention hasn't been paid to the methods of collection used by Hans Sloane and the other great MS collectors and the influence that *misreadings* of the material in those collections have had. I'm doing a lot of research in this area, and an area of concern for me at the moment is the relatively poor scholarship on Arabic magical texts, and my Arabic is shoddy at best.
 
 
ghadis
23:06 / 12.09.07
and an area of concern for me at the moment is the relatively poor scholarship on Arabic magical texts, and my Arabic is shoddy at best.

On a slightly related tangent, the same is true about the scholarship of the Arabic contribution to Egyptology which is only recently starting to get the attention it deserves. Thankfully there now seems to be a number of studies and books coming out that look at centuries of Arabic examination and writing on Ancient Egypt which has pretty much been previously ignored in the west. I've been dipping my toe into Egyptology: The Missing Millennium - Ancient Egypt in Medieval Arabic Writings which is fascinating, looking at various ideas on religion, alchemy, language, science. Great book. It's wonderful that these neglected areas are getting the exposure that they so need.
 
 
Ticker
00:47 / 13.09.07
yay a ghadis post! Missed ya!


oh and I wanted to poke something with a stick if I might...

shockoftheother said upthread:

It seems that (or one would at least hope that) the dogmatic claims of Peter Carroll-style chaos magic have been booted to one side to give way to something less like mass cultural rape,

Elsewhere that I can't find at the moment Gypsy Lantern mentioned that a modern practitioner should be aware of the influence of chaos magic (forgive me if my paraphrasing is too wide of the original mark).

The topic of magical/religious misappropriation is of great interest to me and I'm wondering what steps people are taking to address it in their own work? I know some folks take great pains to study their source materials and cultures while striving to create their own relationships, but how do people call the line on honorable inspiration and the multicultural bounty of our era versus teh bad cultural rape*?


*I am not btw, prodding shockoftheother's post, rather it got me thinking.
 
 
Katherine
06:34 / 13.09.07
Interesting point Inklet/XK, I think that it may be worth re-opening the old thread on this with that paragraph.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
06:42 / 13.09.07
Past threads discussing cultural appropriation:

Cultural appropriation in magical practices
Deities in Cultural Context, a personal dilemma
Magical spaces and cultural signifiers
 
 
Katherine
07:25 / 13.09.07
Thanks for that Trouser, I had thought we only had one thread on the subject.

However reading the 'Deities in Cultural Context, a personal dilemma' I now have a question, in the thread people talk about live gods and dead gods. Live gods being ones who still have active worship today.

When does a dead god become 'live' again? I know of people who worship deities who's original worship has died out when are they are considered 'live', does it depend on amount of worshipers or what?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:36 / 13.09.07
When does a dead god become 'live' again? I know of people who worship deities who's original worship has died out when are they are considered 'live', does it depend on amount of worshipers or what?

I don't see how it can depend on numbers - after all, how does one find out in any comprehensive how many people are interacting with a deity? I think underlying the idea that gods are "dead" when they no longer have x amount of worshippers is the simplistic notion that more people "believing" in an entity = more energy "given" to that entity = entity is more "powerful". Quite what "powerful" means in terms of interactions with deities is rarely examined. It's an argument sometimes used to support the proposition that modern cultural icons - i.e. Buffy the vampire slayer can be just as useful to modern magicians (if not more so) as for example Artemis because of all the belief (="energy") that is directed at her by fans, etc.
 
 
Unconditional Love
09:24 / 13.09.07
Thats an interesting process, something i notice in my practice is that what i worship or pay attention to is some of what i become, that may well just as easily be a dramatic form of hypnosis involving ritual and symbolism.

So a dead or living god in my eyes is alive when i embody it, yet it is also reflected in the process of my veneration, so the ritual environment and mental/emotional associations are also expressions of its life within me.

Whether that is dependent only upon my interaction or their is a life for a deity beyond my interaction is really hard for me to calculate. If i share that veneration with others the trance of worship becomes more 'real' because of my conditioning to experience socially engaging behaviour with others as a more real state than the isolated behaviour of myself. Consensual agreement reinforcing a notion of shared experience or a more real experience, it then becomes easier for those present to agree that said experience was filled with life.

If you look into your early religious based education you can begin to decipher what mechanisms are used to give a deitie a sense of being alive or real, as cynical as this sounds so far they seem to me to be mental/emotional trickery( Also employing bodily gesture and environmental symbolic language.). But that does not make them unsuitable for playing more desirable tricks upon the self. Using ones own early religious conditioning to ones advantage, understanding the trickery employed and redeploying it to suit oneself or the community they engage with.

It begs the question to me are deities alive in the organic sense or do deities require culture to exist, ie can you separate a deitie from its cultural context and if so does it still live? or do you re contextualie it to live in a different cultural environment. If deities require any form of culture to survive, then it would be my supposition that the only place deitie exists is within cultural and individual practice, regardless of context. Deitie then becomes alive through engagement and interaction.
 
 
Katherine
09:26 / 13.09.07
I don't see how it can depend on numbers - after all, how does one find out in any comprehensive how many people are interacting with a deity?

Thats what I was thinking too, to be honest I was a little (ok more than little) confused by the terms live and dead in terms of deities.

I know my question wasn't phrased well, what I wanted to know was how does a deity become 'dead' and how are they recognised as 'alive' again? I suggested by worship as the first way but as you say it is hard/impossible to get an idea of how many people worship a deity.
 
 
Unconditional Love
09:47 / 13.09.07
To give an example if i fill an environment with things i associate with magic and then engage with those things bringing my life to those things at what point do i identify as a practitioner or magician. If i remove the external things but retain only the internal associations am i still a practitioner if the relationship is only to self?

Take away the environmental context and what do you have? Take away the cultural context. Remove the dynamic process of interaction and engagement, do we associate life to a process because of internal and external motion and involvement, a feeling of belonging to a process?

Or is it giving a deitie or ouselves a sense of being/identity that makes us believe that certain qualities have life? From being and identity we can begin to relate.
 
 
Quantum
12:08 / 13.09.07
A really accurate one would be difficult to draw up

I was looking for an overview TBH, like the golden chain crib notes. Why? Well, to learn more about it and fill in some blind spots, but also to look at it's interaction with other traditions, esp. the golden age of Arabic mathematics & magic etc. So when you say an area of concern for me at the moment is the relatively poor scholarship on Arabic magical texts, and my Arabic is shoddy at best ..my ears pricked up! Keep us informed!

Ev, thanks for that- it looks a bit like a compendium of correspondences to me though, what's the explanatory writing like?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
12:27 / 13.09.07
I know my question wasn't phrased well, what I wanted to know was how does a deity become 'dead' and how are they recognised as 'alive' again?

It doesn't seem to me to be a particularly useful way of thinking about deities.
 
 
Ticker
13:01 / 13.09.07
thank you for the links trouser!

I have a bunch of posts busting out of me I keep having to delete because they need to be housed in a thread rather than blurbed around here.
 
 
Katherine
13:12 / 13.09.07
Trouser, in my first post I said:

However reading the 'Deities in Cultural Context, a personal dilemma' I now have a question, in the thread people talk about live gods and dead gods. Live gods being ones who still have active worship today.

All of my questions have been regarding that thread.
 
 
EvskiG
14:05 / 13.09.07
Ev, thanks for that- it looks a bit like a compendium of correspondences to me though, what's the explanatory writing like?

The book essentially is an updated version of 777. Nestled among the hundreds of charts are timelines listing famous magicians, kabbalists , astrologers, and alchemists through the ages. Not a huge amount of explanatory writing, but it should be enough to provide pointers for further research.

(No errors jumped out at me in a quick browse, but I imagine Skinner would be happy to know about them for his next edition.)

On cultural appropriation/misappropriation, lately I've been thinking about the appropriation of Jewish magic and mysticism (and especially kabbalah) by the Western esoteric tradition, from Pico della Mirandola to the Golden Dawn to Crowley and beyond.

As least personally, it's a bit irksome to see occultists associating Tiferet with Jesus, or to see the pidgin Hebrew and distorted Jewish prayers in the LBRP and other classic Western rituals. But perhaps that belongs in one of the topics noted above . . .
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:37 / 13.09.07
I get that, Archabyss, and I've re-read the thread. I just don't think that it's particularly useful to conceptualise deities as being "alive or dead" in an absolute sense. From that thread, Roy Medallion says:

the thing with Pan is that he has no religon anymore, he's is a "dead" god - erm, that doesn't sound right - what I mean is that no one is worshipping him beyond the small and ecletic circles of Western pagans and magicians (to my knowledge, if you know different, tell me).

Just because Pan is no longer being venerated in the way that, say, the ancient Arcadians, did, why should this mean that he is "dead"? (of course, if we are to believe Plutarch, then yes he is) Is Pan's "worship" restricted to that of Western pagans/magicians? What about Pan turning up in literature, painting, music & folklore?

"O goat-foot God of Arcady!
This modern world is gray and old,
And what remains to us of thee?
Then blow some trumpet loud and free
And give thine oaten pipe away,
Ah, leave the hills of Arcady!
This modern world hath need of thee!"
Oscar Wilde
 
 
Katherine
14:42 / 13.09.07
Ah I see what you mean now. Yes I agree with you on those points.

It was a question which I started thinking about due to that other thread, really I think I would only have an answer to it if I asked on that thread at the point when it was going though people's heads or maybe not.
 
 
Ticker
14:58 / 13.09.07
yoga studied for depression treatment

Science Daily — Researchers at Boston University School of Medicine (BUSM) and McLean Hospital have found that practicing yoga may elevate brain gamma-aminobutyric (GABA) levels, the brain's primary inhibitory neurotransmitter. The findings, which appear in the May issue of the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, suggest that the practice of yoga be explored as a possible treatment for depression and anxiety, disorders associated with low GABA levels.

a link epona posted elsewhere but I thought might be of interest. Not big enough for a whole thread...
 
 
---
19:29 / 13.09.07
(This post gets a bit rambly, sorry -- a lot of this is cribbing from my current work, posts/emails i've written elsewhere and two papers i'm currently writing, so there's quite a lot of stuff going on here...)

That was seriously fucking awesome, thanks so much for posting that. You kind of restored my faith in this place and at the same time made me interested in magic again.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:35 / 13.09.07
I've got that strange, dreamlike feeling I get when I find myself agreeing with user 3401. It's like I've slipped into a parallel dimension or something. Can someone check my pupils? I may have licked a funny stamp.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
20:33 / 13.09.07
shockoftheother

[I] think there is a constant instinct in the intellectual history of magic to come to terms with those who have gone before, whether it's in terms of the catena aurea - the mythical chain of initiatic predecessors - or more frequently a synthesis of one's *textual* predecessors.

I find myself wondering about the problem of the transmission of so-called esoteric or occult practices and rituals, in two ways, at least. One, what is the place of textual lineage in relation to the embodied experiential transmission of magic, "the silsila of the body" to coin a poorish metaphor? And second, what strategies exist to glean information about the physical grammar that went alongside, and I guess, inside the text? Not being a practitioner I tend to look at a lot of texts of magic and such as something akin to a manual of a physical game or a sport, such that I know I'm missing the visceral, the musky aspects of this. Whereas for football there exists quite good publically accessible and verifiable records of the rules, goals and actual behaviours of UK footballers within the history of the FA since 1863, am I right in thinking there are few traditions that have an equally verifiable visual and kinetic memory?

More to come later, I hope, as I try and dig up the remnants of my BA in apophatic religion.
 
 
shockoftheother
12:03 / 14.09.07
Aww, you guys. To be honest, it's nice to find a place where this sort of thing is welcome rather than greeted with LOL LOL TL;DR !!1! ...

Ev - you're right about the appropriation of the cabala in the WMT, and I think it's in some ways symptomatic of the Christian way of thinking about Judaism generally, as a dispensational antecedent to the message of Christ. Even outside of an explicitly Christian context, the habit of talking about the 'Judeo-Christian' cultural tradition tends to continue that appropriation. (Though I will say that dispensationalist thought has in itself been responsible for all sorts of interesting heresies - Joachim of Fiore for one - and I'd interpret Crowley's New Aeon primarily in the light of that Christian tradition.)

One of the things I find interesting is the remove at which most contemporary magicians participate in Cabala. Pico, for his flaws, at least learned the language and studied the texts as directly as he could, Mathers et al approached them via Rosenroth's (awful!) Latin translation, contemporary magicians usually approach it via the GD approach. And what's most interesting about it is the systematising trend (which I think in part begins in Kircher rather than Pico) which loses the complex tissue of stories and parables that make up most of the Cabala as I know it - in effect, Christian Cabalists tend to platonise things until the sephiroth are external platonic realms rather than being the very human qualities that they're described as originally. I find that whole 'filing cabinet of the universe' approach to be ultimately a very clinical, very cold way of attempting to describe human experience.

I think it ultimately does a disservice to the complexity and wonder of the universe and the human spirit ("What a great miracle is man, Asclepius!") to believe that the limits of magical exploration are the sort of aimless scripted, guided meditations and pathworkings that seem to be the preserve of so much cabalistic 'magical' work. What a failure of imagination! "Welcome to the 32nd path: on your left you will see..." And it's especially strange because reading something like Pico's stunning Oration on the Dignity of Man ("Let us be driven, O Fathers, by those Socratic frenzies which lift us to such ecstasy that our intellects and our very selves are united to God.") I really don't know where this prosaic astral daytripping comes from.

Anyway, I guess there's much more to say about this, especially why chaos magic and GD-style magic share the same sort of attitudes towards other cultures when they're nominally so antithetical (I think the answer's basically in solipsism...) but that's probably material for another thread.

Nolte - great question, and one I've been thinking about myself recently. When I don't have my academic hat on, I do a lot of performance art/musical/dance work, and I recently started going to ballet classes again, for the first time in about five years (oh god ow ow ow!) so i've been incorporating myself into a series of physical postures that embody a long tradition - and there's something very freeing about it. Something that is apparent in the Solomonic, Mosaic and similar grimoires of the middle ages and renaissance is that, much of the time, they tend to be passed down among the ecclesiastical classes and gradually make their way out from there among the literate and learned aristocracy. In this sense, they should be considered in the context of a complex religious and devotional practice - they were written in a world in which their authors and target audience would have had a far greater awareness of liturgical process, and many of the necromantic texts (for instance, the Munich handbook, published by Kieckhefer) significantly mirror the prayers and processes of the Catholic liturgy. So in that sense, the readers of those grimoires were expected to already have an awareness of liturgical and ritual process, which could slot in around the grammar given by the text.

But there's another thing to consider, which is that a lot of the Christian and neoplatonic magical tradition is verbal - a belief in the Logos as determining factor of the universe, the great book of nature that can be read and rewritten, the idea that if you know the name of a thing then you have power over it. It's easy to see how this can lead to the idea that the body is at best incidental, a vehicle for the mid or for the word. This carries over to the modern day textual dissemination of magic - the care to get the words right in the Star Ruby or pentagram ritual, wandering around the edge of a circle with a script... there's a definite bias in a lot of Thelemic practice in believing that you can shout or vibrate the world into submission.

So you're right in saying that there hasn't been a lineage of physical transmission in the way there has been in other traditions, because in so much of the WMT the physical is thought of as a place where the metaphysical plays itself out. Personally, I see a lot of my practice - which is explicitly and unabashedly pagan - as a re-assertion of the body's role in magic, because a word can be pronounced variously and in multiple ways - it can be shouted, wept, sung, screamed or whispered. Because if a word is an attempt, primarily, to communicate, then what I am communicating plays out in the way my body works as well. That's why I like the emphasis on dance, celebration and response in a lot of pagan material, even if it does sometimes descend too far into loose, flaky waving around (dance is as much a discipline as anything else), something that the masonic tedium of the GD could do with sometimes.

(And tiny, tiny personal plug, a lot of my performance work deals with these concepts and will be coming to a big ol' arts venue in London at some point next year. Believe me, I'll post more heavily about it nearer the time...)
 
  

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