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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
15:06 / 30.08.07
It sounds like they're using "Shepherd" in the generic sense. Wasn't He at least as much a Goatherd?

Well, the phrase used is nomion theon. Nomios means "related to shepherds", but the cognate verb, nomeuo can also refer to the pasturing of cattle, and "melonomos", literally "sheep-pasturer", is also used of goatherds.

However, the logic behind the association of Pan with sheep-herding rather than goat-herding in this specific instance is made clear if you read the rest of the Homeric Hymn, since the second half of it speaks of his conception by Hermes upon the daughter of Dryops, whose sheep he was herding at the time. psapharotricha* mĂȘl' enomeuen - "he herded rough-haired sheep".
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
19:40 / 03.09.07
Stupid magic question: -

Is it stupid to post enough details online for a reasonably smart criminal to work out where they might find the winner of $330 million dollars?

Thankfully Elwood "Bunky" Bartlett who teaches at Mystickal Voyage, a New Age shop in Maryland USA, is in good with the gods, whom he attributes his winning to as he made "a bargain with the multiple gods associated with his Wiccan beliefs: 'You let me win the lottery and I'll teach.'"

Is this a case of a magician not being in touch with the world he lives in, or is it just plain human stupidity? Should he be blamed for this oversight, the media, or the criminals that might take advantage of it? Either way, I think that if the Gods are the reason for his success and he fails to live up to the bargain, he's just made it easier for them to collect their dues.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:37 / 03.09.07
Beyond stating the very obvious fact that no one, no matter how magical they believe themselves to be, should take bloody stupid risks, this is a bit of a How long's a piece of string? question really. We could speculate endlessly, coz there's so many factors: which Gods*, what the deal was, that sort of thing. Has he really won the lottery, even (it's unconfirmed). These things can be fun to noodle around with but really it's all a bit "who would win a fight out of an astronaut and a caveman?**"

*He's a Wiccan, so technically he only has two Gods anyhow, of which all other God/desses are supposedly aspects.

**Caveman obvs.
 
 
Quantum
22:14 / 03.09.07
Astronaut. Better education.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:45 / 03.09.07
Shut up.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
02:24 / 04.09.07
Hehehe...

Regarding Wicca, isn't there one God (Dryghten) of which the God/desses are supposedly aspects? I ask because I've been told that it's not possible to have Christian Wicca because supposedly it violates the first commandment, which I don't think it does as in Exodus 20:3 it states "You shall have no other gods before/besides me." and I think a God is a supernatural being, beyond the abilities of humanity to understand even if all the laws of nature are known as a God is above/beyond these laws, most often of great power. I think the passage means that we're not to label any being other than God as being a God, as the only being beyond natural laws and of ultimate power is God. We can perhaps have gods in the sense of beings which we don't presently understand, however we are not to place them before or besides God in terms of importance but rather behind God, though this is very unclear and it probably means "no gods but me, period", however this still leaves open the option of them not being gods, but rather being which we simply don't presently understand but still recognise as being pretty powerful, though not as powerful as God.

What sort of weapons would the Astronaut and Caveman have, and what sort of environment would they be in?
 
 
Katherine
07:00 / 04.09.07
"who would win a fight out of an astronaut and a caveman?**"

Well it depends on various factors surely.... are they armed with weapons from their own era? Gun versus club should be a short fight if they are out to kill. If not, are they matched strength for strength for a fight? Getting down to fist fighting a better education may not stand you in any better light than someone who is used to beating the heck out of something. Each of these factors plus any more would affect the outcome.

I have thought about this too much I think.......
 
 
shockoftheother
17:28 / 04.09.07
He's a Wiccan, so technically he only has two Gods anyhow, of which all other God/desses are supposedly aspects.

I'd suggest that it isn't that simple, though I can understand how it's easy to come to that conclusion. I'm speaking as an initiated member of Alexandrian craft, which tends to regard itself as distinct from solitary 'Wicca' as expounded in Llewellyn paperbacks. I was taught that the two gods of the craft are specific, named entities, with specific personalities and powers. This is also the opinion of the majority of people I know in Alexandrian and Gardnerian circles. Where invocations call on 'the God' or 'the Goddess', a lot of us argue that this is the same as calling the maiden of Eleusis 'Kore'.

It's arguable that this is a relatively recent trend, as a lot of the literature from Gardner onwards tends towards viewing all the gods as aspect of the divine couple. I'd suggest that this is a modern instance of an age-old trend of hyper-identification of the object of veneration, and doesn't necessarily make totalising claims about the Lord or Lady. The classic example of this is Isis in Apuleius' Golden Ass:

"Behold Lucius I am come, thy weeping and prayers has moved me to succor thee. I am she that is the natural mother of all things, mistress and governess of all the elements, the initial progeny of worlds, chief of powers divine, Queen of heaven, the principal of the Gods celestial, the light of the goddesses: at my will the planets of the air, the wholesome winds of the Seas, and the silences of hell be disposed; my name, my divinity is adored throughout all the world in divers manners, in variable customs and in many names, for the Phrygians call me Pessinuntica, the mother of the Gods: the Athenians call me Cecropian Artemis: the Cyprians, Paphian Aphrodite: the Candians, Dictyanna: the Sicilians , Stygian Proserpine: and the Eleusians call me Mother of the Corn. Some call me Juno, others Bellona of the Battles, and still others Hecate. Principally the Ethiopians which dwell in the Orient, and the Egyptians which are excellent in all kind of ancient doctrine, and by their proper ceremonies accustomed to worship me, do call me Queen Isis. Behold I am come to take pity of thy fortune and tribulation, behold I am present to favor and aid thee. Leave off thy weeping and lamentation, put away thy sorrow, for behold the healthful day which is ordained by my providence, therefore be ready to attend to my commandment."
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:27 / 05.09.07
Who would win a fight out of an astronaut and a caveman?

You have no idea how gutted I was when I finally got round to seeing Kubrick's "2001: A Space Odyssey" and it turned out that it wasn't about this.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:56 / 05.09.07
The monoliths win every time.
 
 
Ticker
12:18 / 05.09.07
It's arguable that this is a relatively recent trend, as a lot of the literature from Gardner onwards tends towards viewing all the gods as aspect of the divine couple. I'd suggest that this is a modern instance of an age-old trend of hyper-identification of the object of veneration, and doesn't necessarily make totalising claims about the Lord or Lady. The classic example of this is Isis in Apuleius' Golden Ass:

A big question I lug around is how different cultures/people handle Deity syncretion. sometimes it seems to be a one-to-one other times it seems to be one-to-aspect. there seems to be a whole lot of room for misappropriation and general toe stepping between cultures this way. For example I know some Catholics that aren't too thrilled to have the Virgin Mary equated with Isis.

Last year I had a very interesting conversation with a priestess of Artemis over the different regional composites throughout Greece. This particular priestess experienced some of Them as distinct Beings. I find the terms aspect or faces doesn't really cut it for me when tracing the connections as the distinctions are often fluid rather than fixed.
 
 
EmberLeo
20:11 / 05.09.07
I find the terms aspect or faces doesn't really cut it for me when tracing the connections as the distinctions are often fluid rather than fixed.

Huh, that's funny - I would still quite happily call them aspects. "Aspect" doesn't imply, to me, that it's got clearly delineated edges. Facet does, perhaps. "Path" does, certainly but that's sort of a jargon term that we use in my Umbanda house, where paths have specific names. But I might refer to aspects of a path...

--Ember--
 
 
trouser the trouserian
20:41 / 05.09.07
Serious question. Why are so many of the chaos magician-types (at least the ones that turn up here) f*ckwitted eejits (or at least giving a good impression of being so)?

It really depresses me sometimes....
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:58 / 05.09.07
Because the way the shallow end of kaoz majyx presents the art as being, to borrow from Jan Fries, somewhat akin to an unlimited credit card plus the home shopping channel, and thus the people who are attracted to same are the sort of people who want the whole unlimited credit card/QVC thing and believe they deserve to get it. To wit, wankers.
 
 
EvskiG
21:35 / 05.09.07
Remember, Trouser, Pete Carroll and Phil Hine have far fewer dim children than Aleister Crowley and Anton LeVey. At least some seem to come with the territory.

And plenty of clever people have been inspired by chaos magic, from Jaq Hawkins to Grant Morrison to half of the more-or-less sane regulars on this board.

Personally, I found it the magical equivalent of discovering Picasso and Joyce. And, to some extent, I'm still picking up the pieces from that discovery.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:10 / 06.09.07
Pete Carroll and Phil Hine have far fewer dim children than Aleister Crowley and Anton LeVey.

True, very true. You get douchery in every path. I think we tend to see the dregs of kaoz madjyk round here because, well, Barbelith: the name, and the general erroneous perception of this board as being somehow linked to G-Moz, mean that we tend to get a lot of people whose idea of magic crash-landed sometime around 1997 and never got off the ground again, and whose personal development has followed a similar trajectory. This is not a savage indictment of chaos magic so much as all kinds of magic and alternative spirituality, really--there's a very high degree of wank across the board.

Heck, you should see some of the human slime mould my trad attracts. At least Barbelith is (relatively) free of white supremacist arseholes who think that Kristianity makes people gay.
 
 
Digital Hermes
15:04 / 06.09.07
Pete Carroll and Phil Hine have far fewer dim children than Aleister Crowley and Anton LeVey.

This is pessimistic, but that's just because Carrol and Hine haven't been around as long as Crowley. Give it time.

I figure everything in life comes with it's own signal-to-noise ratio, in which many people you would prefer not to associate with are fasinated in the same subject you are. This has been my experience, at least, in my theatre and film career.

The draw of kaos/chaos/(unspeakable sigil) might be answered by something going on in the recent sigil thread... Gypsy Lantern made some good points regarding how seductive the fire-and-forget method is for that sort of magic, and how very little effort or thought that process requires. In terms of time invested, it's far easier for a comic fan with an internet connection to come across this message board, or whatever the gateway is, glean a few processes, and call themselves a chaos magician. And since a lot of it eschews any sort of organization or rank, there's no measuring stick to tell them that they're wrong.

Put another way, a lot of people have an unfinished epic fantasy novel on their word processer, and figure that because they are typing a story, they are a writer, in the romantic creator/profession sense of the word. Whereas I apply that term to those who are published. If the analogy follows, the debate between the typist and the writer is one of subjective terms, but worth arguing.
 
 
Ticker
15:37 / 06.09.07
Serious question. Why are so many of the chaos magician-types (at least the ones that turn up here) f*ckwitted eejits (or at least giving a good impression of being so)?

It really depresses me sometimes....


I know a good handful of smart useful chaos magicians and am married to one.
Mine doesn't find much use in sitting around talking about teh magijcks unless its because I've asked him to discuss something with me or we end up reveiwing something together. We've had many long amazing conversations about practical magic, conversations which don't really seem to work online. He also has no time for ego laden abstract hand wavy pontificating. One of our friends does that and you can hear the mental groan of pain from my spouse whenever the 'Magus' starts in on something.

I think the common trait I can see with the ones I respect is they have no interest in displaying teh pwrz for the purposes of ego inflation. Education and mutual sharing maybe but with people they know well enough to have a serious conversation with. The spouse has a hard practical edge and if he thinks the best way to improve the world is to get up off your ass and hand the homeless person 5$ rather than orgone acumulating rituals in the men's room of the night club he'll tell you so.

There seems to be an ego check of maturity happening and the ones who have made it are more likely to be practicing than soap boxing. For himself chaos magic is a tool in the box anyone can use and the pride's not in owning it or displaying it but using it well.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:45 / 06.09.07
What do _you_ know about Chaos Majick, Trouser the Trouserian? Have you ever even charged a sigil? I don't think so.

As a postmodern Chaos Shaman, I find this very offensive. Moderators, why aren't you doing your jobs? Is it because you are all secret mates? I think it JUST MIGHT BE!!!
 
 
Quantum
16:08 / 06.09.07
it's far easier for a comic fan with an internet connection to come across this message board Digital Hermes

Euw... a comic fan just came across my board... damn sigilizerz and their powerfluids. Where the magic jizzmop?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
16:22 / 06.09.07
I've said it before, but I think that the genuinely interesting and important things that came out of chaos magic have permeated so far into the discourse of contemporary occultism over the last 20 years that for someone to describe themselves today as "a chaos magician" comes across as a bit weird to me. I dunno, it's like a restaurant making a big deal out of their hygiene certificates or something. You would expect it. The fact that attention is being drawn towards it makes you a bit suspicious.

If I'm having a conversation with someone about magic these days, and they are identifying as a practicing magician themselves, I would actually *expect* them to be at least up-to-speed with the main principles of chaos magic and have formed their own opinions about these ideas, regardless of what tradition they are primarily working within. If someone doesn't display some sort of basic awareness of the impact, value, history, benefits and hopefully also the shortcomings of chaos magic, it's a bit like meeting a self-professed reggae fan who doesn't know who Dennis Brown is.

Likewise, if someone describes themselves as a "chaos magician" to me, it makes me respond in a similar way to meeting someone who describes themselves exclusively as a "punk" or a "metaller", and appeared to have closed themselves off from all other forms of musical expression because of their strong identification with this particular label and what they think it should/should not allow. It makes you question whether they are actually interested in music at all, or just want a badge to wear that makes certain statements.
 
 
Ticker
16:51 / 06.09.07
Likewise, if someone describes themselves as a "chaos magician" to me, it makes me respond in a similar way to meeting someone who describes themselves exclusively as a "punk" or a "metaller", and appeared to have closed themselves off from all other forms of musical expression because of their strong identification with this particular label and what they think it should/should not allow. It makes you question whether they are actually interested in music at all, or just want a badge to wear that makes certain statements.

I'm following what you are saying GL, but I also know a good number of folks who use it as a place holder where others put religious/magical affiliation. To go with your music analogy I know folks who listen to mostly hip hop and will respond with such if asked what they listen to, but that doesn't automatically mean that's all they listen to. Sometimes it is useful to use a term like neopagan or chaos magick to indicate a larger area for possible indepth discussion.

It's also, IME, very different to be talking on a messageboard then IRL where it's much easier to add qualifiers into the flow of conversation. So the person throwing out neopagan or chaos magic as a self identifer may have a longer lag than in conversation in which to get specific.

though I usually hear people I respect say it more like, "well I really got into Chaos Magic when I was young and used these resources A/B/C, and am currently focused on X area now", which maybe more of what you are talking about?
 
 
Unconditional Love
07:41 / 07.09.07
I think with music it depends on what emotions you may like to relate through through an artist or genre of music, but since many of them interrelate Metal for example to blues and all the early influences of rock and classical elements and since that time all the influences that metal has absorbed from punk to rap to glam to goth and all the others, folk, medieval,world come to mind as well its really hard to say that a certain label means a certain thing when all of the relationships are taken into consideration.

In fact i find it hard to think of a 'purist' musical form when having looked at the history of modern western music, perhaps the blip glitch area of electronica, but even there there are exceptions to the rule.

Thats half the problem with using labels in a single context of identity rather than looking at a relational context of identity, the temporal history as a point of focus brings forth the complex nature of identity as an act of relating rather than as an act of being.

Identity isnt a thing or a collection of them that a person owns, its not static, its a process. The things are immaterial to the value of the relationships they create which largely becomes an act of perception, the idea of identity falls from grace when it identifies with the perception.

So for example i love Industrial music, mainly the electronic side of it, i like dressing accordingly. That does not preclude me from liking everything else i like and the association and expression are just that, a process of expressing where i am for now in relation to the clubs i go to the people i associate with. There are some elements i dislike in those associations and some i prefer. But i notice as more and more elements relate to each other by way of vast communication systems so many elements of a variety of contexts are becoming included from a variety of differing cultures and media that the elements i dislike are fast disappearing and becoming relegated into a coma until they play catch up to how relationships are for now, rather than how they would like them to be.

Even if people stick to a single identity as a reference point, those identities are becoming so inclusive of the current context we are living in, that of a vast mixture of cultural media that it seems impossible to actually identify as this or that without taking into account all the influences involved in its creation.
 
 
Unconditional Love
09:17 / 07.09.07
For me this illustrates one of the problems of dealing with divination systems, they give information that is locked into certain temporal events at certain times. Most divination systems are too static in character. I believe that more fluid forms of divination are in order for the times i seem to be living in now, to take in the constant flux and flow of events. Clouds and running water come to mind as do observation of the minds contents.

Systems of symbols and cultures seem to be less static and more of a movement, one reaction to this has been a proliferation of different tarot for example, but i am not sure the choice actually covers the dynamics i see around me. Fluidity and flux of symbol and identity seems to be whats required.

Fixed forms of culture and identity seem like safe havens, but they seem to limit the expansion of awareness that is taking place, or seems to me to be taking place.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:16 / 08.09.07
Remember Bunky Bartlett, the Wiccan lottery winner? According to an MBC pundit, Bartlett winning the lottery and using the money to teach Wicca = Government sponsored Satanism.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
17:34 / 08.09.07
I wonder if Willie Geist will say the U.S Government is subsidising pedophilia, in the event that a person on welfare is found to have molested a child? On the surface it doesn't seem like a good arguement, though maybe if we go deeper?

In Deuteronomy 18 it states: -

10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.

Whilst this is one of the few mentions of witchcraft in the Bible, it is the most condemning and it doesn't attribute it to Satan. The quick easy deduction seems to be that whilst witchcraft *may* be practiced by Satanists, not all witchcraft is the work of Satan and hence Bunky *may not* be a Satanist after all, however this is based on whether or not Satan can be considered to be the creator of all "detestable" acts.

All I know for sure is that $330 million would buy some rather good lawyers for a civil defence suit - slander is such a nasty business, but a profitable one.
 
 
EmberLeo
11:41 / 10.09.07
Does anyone here know anything about the Kurdish god Gahonda? I had the wonderful opportunity to meet Him recently, and while I don't need to persue worshipping Him, I would like to know more about Him. Obviously I will be happy to ask the person who brought Him to my home, but we're not all that close, and I don't want to impose unduely, so I thought I would at least attempt some research first.

However, there's nothing at all in the usual places I begin, and an open Google search nly gets me humans with the name, and references to Honda dealers in Georgia.

--Ember--
 
 
Ticker
16:52 / 10.09.07
a link to an article because I heart Partick Harpur:

Guardian Angels, Personal Daimons by Patrick Harpur
 
 
grant
19:06 / 10.09.07
the Kurdish god Gahonda

Kurdish? As in the folks in Turkey and northern Iraq?

Does this help?

It sounds like you're either looking at Islam, Judaism or Zoroastrianism, with cults of angels that borrow from those three traditions (the Yezidi being one of them), some local Sufi variants and something called "Babaism" which is a more militant version of Baha'i.

Funnily enough, the supreme being to the Zoroastrians is Ahura Mazda - I think the car was named for Him.

Anyway, nothing there that looks like "gods" to me, except the angels. It's the cradle of monotheism, so any gods besides the one creator would have to be pretty darn old.

Here's a figure of avatars of the universal spirit from that encyclopedia's entry on "YARSANISM," one of the other angel cults:

 
 
grant
19:07 / 10.09.07
Oh, and for the record, probably the astronaut as long as he (or she) was in full spacewalk gear. The helmet, you know?
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
19:25 / 10.09.07
in a naked fight, fists/feet/teeth, I'd give it to the Caveperson.* because NASA's training program is tough, but not as tough as wrestling dinosaurs for your dinner every day.

however rather than "weapons of their time" I'd go with, like, Archtype weapons. who ever heard of an Astronaut with a gun? The Caveperson gets a big rock or spear or whatever. the Astronaut gets a spaceship with a needle tip. zhe has one chance to ram it through the stained glass window and into the Caveperson. and as long as the Astronaut's theme music is playing, zhe totally wins.

*of course, you'd have to find some way to convince the Caveperson to actually fight and not just scream terrifyingly and then run away or whatever, since fighting for non-essential reasons was generally considered a bad idea until the invention of beer and feet to spill it on. I bet Astronauts look scary to Cavepeople, we're all big and well-fed. even those of us who are short enough to be considered by NASA.
 
 
EvskiG
19:29 / 10.09.07
Does anyone here know anything about the Kurdish god Gahonda? I had the wonderful opportunity to meet Him recently, and while I don't need to persue worshipping Him, I would like to know more about Him.

It would be interesting if the God you apparently met had no actual history, or any worshippers other than the person who introduced you.

Don't know what that would say about His existence or non-existence . . .
 
 
EmberLeo
19:50 / 10.09.07
Um, that's definitely not a possibility. It's at least part of a long, but small tribal family tradition. Maybe I've spelled it wrong, or maybe the god isn't Kurdish (the man is Kurdish). Maybe it's not well documented, but it's definitely not his own invention.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:35 / 11.09.07
Look, I'm just bloody sick of this. OBVIOUSLY the astronaut does not have a ray gun OR an encounter suit, otherwise it's "who would win a fight out of a person with a gun/futuristic armour and a person not with a gun/futuristic armour?" and that's just STUPID.
 
 
grant
15:28 / 11.09.07
Actually, if the astronaut was in one of those rocket-pack EVA things and the caveman had a wooden spear AND they were on earth, not in zero-G, then advantage goes back to caveman, because the rocket pack would basically immobilize the astronaut.

I want to know if "Gahonda" is spelled correctly, and if it's an alternate name for a more familiar angel.
 
  

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