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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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Quantum
12:36 / 14.09.07
Lovin' your work, shock. Personally, I see a lot of my practice - which is explicitly and unabashedly pagan - as a re-assertion of the body's role in magic

Can I persuade you to write something about that for the next volume of The Temple Presents? I can get you cake, beer, fresh adrenal glands...
 
 
Katherine
12:38 / 14.09.07
I second Quantum's asking.... I get mead if that will help tip the balance in the Temple Book's flavor?
 
 
Ticker
13:17 / 14.09.07
feh Journal shmournal*, I wanna know who has a floor I can crash on so I can come see shock's performances.







*said while lovingly finishing her own article for said shmournal.
 
 
shockoftheother
15:56 / 14.09.07
Heh. I'd be more than happy to contribute to the journal, it looks like a fun project. Sacrificial offerings and bribes not strictly necessary, although it's amazing how well-disposed the carrot cake from Coffee, Cake and Kink makes me. I did put out a few musings on similar themes a few months ago in the Oracle magazine, but as it was mostly a transcript of a talk from Treadwell's it would be nice to take a slightly different approach.

As for the performance work, well, provided the mountain of paperwork and email correspondence I'm currently doing for it doesn't actually kill me, it should be pretty great... it's called Adam & the Red Clay, which gives a vague intimation of what it might be about. I could moan for hours about the Arts Council budget being drained in order to fund the sodding Olympics, but it really won't do any good.
 
 
Ticker
16:49 / 14.09.07
I need dates in advance so as to be buying tickets...plane tickets.
 
 
Ticker
00:01 / 15.09.07
I took a cheesmo online religious affiliation quiz this morning and the results were not surprising but have prompted me to try and figure this out long term:

1. Mahayana Buddhism (100%)
2. Neo-Pagan (100%)


I've gotten these results in the past which in part prompted my current Buddhism incursion. While the neo-pagan is chock full of supermarket style electives, Mahayana Buddhism as far as my fledgling self can determine is a serious sign up for the whole package deal or not at all.

Keeping in mind issues of cultural misappropriation, I've been careful to note that the Mahayana Buddhist resources are very welcoming to the curious to come and explore but there is a designated Members Only section, which appears to be a vast majority of the very compelling stuff like Deity Yoga.

So my questions are is my perception of the existence of the line accurate, and how have other people navigate the cross over respectfully?

I'm very much into learning the outer layers of the Mahayana Buddhist tradition (especially the Tibetan) that are open to other folks but I'm not really looking at Taking Refuge in the Three Jewels. As my spouse so wisely noted there are some Irish Cattle Deities that got here first. My limited understanding of the Tibetan Tantric system does not lead me to believe it is syncretic?
 
 
*
00:38 / 15.09.07
My partner studies Buddhism and is primarily a pagan, but I have never asked him how it works for him. I will next time we talk.
 
 
grant
01:03 / 15.09.07
Welllll, I don't think you can really call Tibetan Tantra Mahayana per se. In Western classrooms, Buddhism is divided into two main bits: Theravada (or Hinayana, "Lesser Vehicle") which is concerned with the individual practitioner achieving Nirvana, and Mahayana ("Greater Vehicle") which is concerned with enlightening every living being.
On the ground, though, there's a dizzying array of varieties, and the Vajrayana "Lightning Vehicle" of Tibetan Buddhism is one of them that doesn't exactly fit as comfortably into the two big categories as it could.

One reason why is that Tantra is syncretic - in the Tibetan flavor (and there are other tantric flavors, like the one that built Borobudur in Indonesia) the gods of Tibet pre-existed the Buddha by aaaages, but now they're bodhisattvas.

And Tibetan Buddhism is one of the varieties that actively prosyletizes....
 
 
Papess
01:43 / 15.09.07
And Tibetan Buddhism is one of the varieties that actively prosyletizes....

I have to disagree with that. Just because it has been recently popular in the west, doesn't mean it is a proselytizing religion. What are you basing that on, grant?

Also: There really is not a Hinayana path that is taught. It is not possible to teach or practice the lesser vehicle within the Buddhist doctrine. There is no escape from Mahayana in Buddhism. Essentially, all Buddhism is of the Greater vehicle. It has to be. Vajrayana is realizing there is no difference between these vehicles - that all life is interdependent of each other. This is why, there is no possibility of following a Hinayana path. The nature of existence, of interdependent arising of phenomenon, defies the very path of Hinayana. Vajrayana, in part, is the recognition of that nature. Which is also why Dzogchen is taught within the Vajrayana vehicle only.
 
 
Katherine
05:53 / 15.09.07
although it's amazing how well-disposed the carrot cake from Coffee, Cake and Kink makes me.

I would say the same about the Lavender cake myself.
 
 
grant
12:15 / 15.09.07
What are you basing that on, grant?


I keep getting fliers from two local groups. I mean, it's not aggressive or anything (no knocking on doors), but it seems like they're actively interested in, for instance, teaching new people to meditate and chant.

Buddhism in general has a pretty strong missionary tradition, especially compared to something like Judaism.
 
 
EvskiG
12:18 / 15.09.07
Also: There really is not a Hinayana path that is taught. It is not possible to teach or practice the lesser vehicle within the Buddhist doctrine. There is no escape from Mahayana in Buddhism.

I'm not sure how many of the world's 100 million Theravada Buddhists (who often find the term Hinayana insulting) would agree with that.

It's roughly the equivalent of saying it's impossible to teach or practice Judaism after Jesus.
 
 
Papess
13:24 / 15.09.07
I keep getting fliers from two local groups. I mean, it's not aggressive or anything (no knocking on doors), but it seems like they're actively interested in, for instance, teaching new people to meditate and chant.

Well that isn't TB, that is that group of people.

Ev: You are misunderstanding me, or maybe I haven't explained properly. Simply put, when you become or are becoming enlightened, you can't help but benefit others. THAT is Vajrayana.
 
 
Ticker
14:20 / 15.09.07
One reason why is that Tantra is syncretic - in the Tibetan flavor (and there are other tantric flavors, like the one that built Borobudur in Indonesia) the gods of Tibet pre-existed the Buddha by aaaages, but now they're bodhisattvas.

And Tibetan Buddhism is one of the varieties that actively prosyletizes....


I can see that. However with Yidams I believe you have to work with one of the ones in the system and be oath bound to Them, rather than bring your Own.

From my POV Tibetan Buddhism very gently proselytizes and I think of that as a good thing. I'm very glad that H.H. the Dalai Lama is out there loving the peoples and offering to make the Dharma as accessible to people as possible.

I guess I'm all down with compassionate systems of religious belief standing on soap boxes. It's the monognostic doom patrol ones that freak me out.

Also thank you for asking, Zippid!
 
 
---
16:15 / 15.09.07
With the vehicle thing : It's basically semantics, and Medulla is right by saying that there's no escape from Mahayana. I'd go further and add that there's no escape from Hinayana either though if you're looking at it like that, (I'd personally say that neither fully exist, and that any dependance on them is to be dropped once we no longer need them.) because they're both part of the same thing.

The Lankavatara says :

"there are no vehicles, and so I speak of the One Vehicle. I do not speak much about it because there is no way by which earnest disciples can realize Nirvana unaided."

So Hinayana and Mahayana are designed as different ways to direct different people towards the same realisation.

And from Shunryu Suzuki in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind :

"Not to say anything may be very good, but there is no reason why we should always be silent. Whatever you do, even including not-doing, that is our practice. That is an expression of big mind. So big mind is something to express, but it is not something to figure out. Big mind is something you have, not something to seek for. Big mind is something to talk about, or to express by our activity, or something to enjoy. If we do this, in our way of observing precepts there is no Hinayana or Mahayana way."

So one person might need to reach a place by car, another by boat from across the river, but they're not needed once you arrive at the destination, and neither was better than the other. Some will argue that Mahayana is better because you're vowing to save all by returning again and again, but others could argue that without Theravada you wouldn't have had Mahayana in the first place. Well, unless you believe that the Mahayana sutras really were stored for 500 years in the realm of the Nagas until Humanity was ready for them....I'm not getting involved in that one though.
 
 
Princess
14:04 / 16.09.07
I'm looking for some old threads about Santo-Daime. The author got rid of all references to it and covered them with xxxx so that it couldn't be googled.

If someone remembers what the thread was called could they PM me the thread details?
Please not in thread, as the author obviously doesn'twant those threads coming up on a google search for SD.
 
 
_Boboss
19:34 / 18.09.07
hello. back during all that 'i kill voodoo gods' ultraculture bullshit, i happened upon a link to a community site that does magick-y discussion with a welcome smidgen of sanity. they had a good section with a variety of cut-up and otherwise muck-up-your-text programs. can't remember what the site was called, and remember they mentioned it wasn't googleable, so now i can't find it. anyone know the place i'm on about/care to point me in the right direction? very kind of you.
 
 
Papess
03:42 / 19.09.07
From my POV Tibetan Buddhism very gently proselytizes and I think of that as a good thing.

Whether you think it is a good thing or not does not mean that it is a part of Buddhism...especially pegging it as a part of Tibetan Buddhism, inparticular. If you read H.H the Dalai Lama's work, he encourages all religious endevours, not just TB.


I'm very glad that H.H. the Dalai Lama is out there loving the peoples and offering to make the Dharma as accessible to people as possible.

Do you think accessibility implies proselytizing? I thought proselytizing was actively recruiting people. Which, teaching someone to meditate, or chant, is not qualify as - as Grant mentioned about a group in his area. Explaining a religion or philosophy is recruiting either, as there are lots of books on Judaism as well. The difference being, one has to be BORN into Judaism, making it a bit of a closed club. Yes, one could become a Buddhist, even of Tibetan variety, but never would they go and actively seek new membership. If they do, they are directly going against Buddhist doctrine. Sure, listen to a teaching, learn something new - maybe how to meditate - but THAT doesn't make one a Buddhist. First of all, in order to actually recruit a new Buddhist, one needs to try to convince someone to take Refuge in the Three Jewels, in order to be "converted". Meditation alone doesn't make a Buddhist conversion.

Secondly, it hardly qualifies as proselytizing when information is just being dispersed to those who are interested; as in a talk is being given to those who wish to hear it. Perhaps, as a book people wish to buy. If you are not interested no one should be trying to convince you.

Thirdly, if someone is a Buddhist and they are trying to convert people, they are sorely missing the point. I would also be wary of their credentials. It is one thing to point to information, it is another to recruit. A good Dharma teacher doesn't need to recruit. A good Dharma teacher relies on the karma of the students to ripen. If you think you have come across an actively recruiting Dharma centre - stay away. There are some that do, and they are missing the point, as I stated before. I would highly wonder what the agenda is of the resident lama.

I guess I'm all down with compassionate systems of religious belief standing on soap boxes.

I am also for compassionate systems of religious belief expressing their beliefs, (rather than soapboxing the idea, which I find unpalatable), but I don't think that expression and discussion is actually proselytizing. Rabbis speak out all the time, but that doesn't make them proselytizers. Why is it that because the option of becoming a (Tibetan) Buddhist is there, a discussion of the doctrine is viewed as proselytizing - since the same is not said for Judaism?

Being Jewish has a lot to do with blood lineage, but that doesn't mean it is impossible to become one. That being said, being a Buddhist, especially in the Tibetan Buddhist school I belong to, the old school of Nyingmapa, also has a lineage. It is more of a mind lineage, however, and if you are not supposed to be there, you won't be.
 
 
Papess
04:15 / 19.09.07
I'd go further and add that there's no escape from Hinayana either though if you're looking at it like that, (I'd personally say that neither fully exist, and that any dependance on them is to be dropped once we no longer need them.) because they're both part of the same thing.

Very good ____, that is exactly right. Also why I am guessing, according to Ev's post, that some Theraveda Buddhists do not like the term Hinayana. There are no vehicles, really. But if we were to make an analogy of vehicles crossing a river, in Vajrayana, one is in the boat, in the plane, and on the other side.

Then there is Ati yoga, where there is no river to cross anyway, so where the heck do ya think you are going?

Another born-again Buddhist!
 
 
grant
04:30 / 19.09.07
Rabbis speak out all the time, but that doesn't make them proselytizers. Why is it that because the option of becoming a (Tibetan) Buddhist is there, a discussion of the doctrine is viewed as proselytizing - since the same is not said for Judaism?

Well, because Judaism isn't looking to extend the covenant with people who aren't descended from Abraham. Mahayana Buddhism is seeking to enlighten the whole world - that's why it's Mahayana.

I'm not using "proselytize" as a negative thing, here - does not equal "harangue," for instance.
 
 
Papess
04:33 / 19.09.07
Mahayana Buddhism is seeking to enlighten the whole world - that's why it's Mahayana.

Yes, but it is not done by trying to convert people to Buddhism. I think you are not understanding this. It is done through acts of kindness and prayer...not conversion!
 
 
Papess
04:43 / 19.09.07
I'm not using "proselytize" as a negative thing, here - does not equal "harangue," for instance.

I do appreciate that, Grant. However, my frustration here is with applying the methods and doctrines of other religions to Buddhism, thus my little joke upthread about being a born-again Buddhist. (Humour takes the edge off the frustration). Mahayana Buddhists may wish to "enlighten" the whole world but someone, of the Great Vehicle or not could truly understand Buddhism, they would see that people can be of any religious belief and be "enlightened" or "awake" or "aware of their true nature". Thus, no need to convert anyone. Buddha nature is not exclusive to Buddhism.
 
 
zedoktar
09:05 / 20.09.07
Sup Barbeloids and Barbeques. What is some good ritual or meditation music?
Anything made personally is always good, obviously, but what else gets the mojo going? What sets the mood for you?

I tend towards instrumental arabic or hindu music, but I have a special soft spot for the track Sex Magick on John Zorn's album I.A.O.

Psytrance gets me going pretty good too, especially darker stuff like Baphomet Engine.

At some point I'm going to experiment with Acid Mothers Temple, Psychic TV, and the Rockabye Tool album. Maybe some Bach and Tangerine Dream too.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:12 / 20.09.07
Almost exclusively reggae, soul, grime and dubstep. There is already an active thread about this called "Magical resonances" that you might want to post in.
 
 
grant
14:16 / 20.09.07
Meditation? Silence. Otherwise you're *listening.*
 
 
illmatic
14:35 / 20.09.07
Grant: Funnily enough, there's a whole range of Indian meditational techniques which involve tuning in to inner sound - "shabda" i.e the sound of the heartbeat or the other subtle noises you here. This is all part of the mysteries of mantra.

Which reminds me, I really want to listen to more sitar music. I love the fact that the word "raga" actually translates as "a passion".
 
 
rosie x
14:39 / 20.09.07
Which reminds me, I really want to listen to more sitar music.

Have you ever heard much Anoushka Shankar? She's amazing...
 
 
illmatic
14:44 / 20.09.07
No, what's she like?

I have to say, I'm thinking of pure sitar stuff - I feel it loses a lot of the intensity when it's just used as a tone or effect, or cut with dance beats or whatever. Not saying that is what she is like, wihout hearing her, obv...
 
 
Ticker
14:51 / 20.09.07
she's the daughter of Ravi Shankar and spectacular in her own right.

her site

you can hear samples.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:34 / 20.09.07
My Invisible Chaos Majickal practice has necessitated the creation of a band made up entirely of thoughtforms, tasked with the creation of the kind of music perfectly synchronised with my meditative needs. I have named these thoughtforms Thee Holograms, in honour ov thee ascended master ov chaos, Terence McKenna. The focus of the majickal sigil I employed to create them is a picture of a girl I like and an amethyst broach I stole from her locker during games. Thus, the lead singer, who is also my lover, is called Gem.

However, such perfect music and such sensual delight has its cost. A qlippothic, vampiric reflection of my beautiful muses grew in the dark places. Although comely, their music was harsh and discordant. They disrupted my Terpsichorean calm with their harsh jams and wicked riffs. They did not fit in. They were misfits. And to banish them back to the lower realms, my sweet Gem would have to pay a terrible price.

(Potentially NSFW link, contains swearing. And dark majick)
 
 
electric monk
17:40 / 20.09.07
Truly, truly, truly outrageous.
 
 
Haloquin
21:42 / 20.09.07
Meditation? Silence. Otherwise you're *listening.* - grant

Oh, thats odd. I think of meditation as more than just the sitting in silence/clearing the mind type, which is what I assume you're referring to? In my understanding meditation includes focus on one thing, such as an object, or even music. Would you have a different term for that?

My, admittedly vague, definition of meditation is pretty much;
The deliberate focus of the mind on one thing or one series of things, which can include no-thing, which induces altered states of consciousness.

There's something about it having a purpose in my mind, and definitely being a conscious decision, rather than an accidental occurence. I think of silence-based meditation as a type of meditation, rather than all of it.
 
 
Papess
23:16 / 20.09.07
In my understanding meditation includes focus on one thing, such as an object, or even music. Would you have a different term for that?

Contemplation. Concentration. Observation. Listening (as was mentioned already by Grant). How about focusing or fixating?

There's something about it having a purpose in my mind, and definitely being a conscious decision, rather than an accidental occurence. I think of silence-based meditation as a type of meditation, rather than all of it.

What is "silenced-based" meditation? Perhaps, you are referring to the meditation of calm-abiding, or samatha? - as is in Buddhism and Hinduism, as well, (I think). Usually samatha is done to calm the mind before one begins practicing insight meditation, or Vipassana.
 
 
Ticker
00:16 / 21.09.07
CHaus: I'm forever in your debt for that lovely bit of evil.
 
 
Haloquin
10:38 / 21.09.07
What is "silenced-based" meditation? - Medulla Oblongata
In my mind it is when you sit in silence and clear your mind, trying to focus on no-thing. Or rather not trying, as (I think) that defeats the point somewhat.

Whereas meditation can be meditation 'on' something, hence me including intense focus on an object in my definition. Would you say that ('meditation on') was a way the word has been misused? Mistranslated? Or is it just different to how you use it?
 
  

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