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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

  
  

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Ticker
18:49 / 31.07.07
just out of my own curiousity...

Do folks not put that much focus on the Lave Tet ceremony?

While I understand completely that one needs to develop one's own direct relationship with the Powers it would seem that community relationship and community worship is one of the great strengths and adds a great deal to the practice of various tradtions? (non African dispora included)

I bring this up because lately I'm exploring the idea that group worship and workings do in fact have benefits not available to a solo practitioner. I realize the reverse is also true to some extent but I'm examining the entrenched attitudes of solo as an absolute level of function. To try and be a little more clear, while community practitioners would have private personal relationships and rituals it occurs to me that the lack of community celebration and workings as a widespread modern phenomenon is not all it is cracked up to be. I've experienced this recently with group healing rituals as opposed to solo efforts.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
01:28 / 01.08.07
I'm exploring the idea that group worship and workings do in fact have benefits not available to a solo practitioner.

Well yeah but what, as they say, are you gonna do? I'm sure a lot of us would like/have liked to have got into all this with the support and blessing of a house or analagous body, but if the opportunity does not present itself and yet the Powers that Be are tapping on your door, you just have to sort things out for yerself.
 
 
EmberLeo
07:31 / 01.08.07
What are your experiences with Exu like? How do they compare to written accounts?

I can't tell you much of how they compare with written accounts, because I've learned a great deal more through direct experience and conversation with those who have direct experience than I have via books. Then, also, written accounts are incredibly variable. I don't take much from the stuff I've found on the web that equates working with Exu with LaVeyan Satanism, because I just don't see the connection. That seems like a deliberate effort from curious Satanists to make a connection across the back end, and it doesn't much seem to apply, really from the Quimbanda end. Yes, the imagery associated with Exu is the red devil, and Quimbanda is the "darker" work, from what I understand. But the reasons behind this are so unrelated to the reasons behind LaVey's Satanism, as far as I can tell.

But then I've never been a LaVeyan Satanist, and my Umbanda house isn't really a Quimbanda house. We are an Exu house practicing a style of "Low-Church" Umbanda that's actually closer to Candomble than Quimbanda. I don't know much of anything at all about Romany magic, or it's potential connection to Afro-Brazilian religion. I do have Dow's book Sarava! but I've only skimmed it thus far. I hear good things about it from folks in the house.

One website i have read describes Exu and Pomba Gira as like astral police persons, is that close to your experience of Exu?

Um... Heh, no. Well, I guess that depends on what you mean by "astral police". My personal understanding of the Exus is that there is an Exu for every sentient being in existence, that serves as communicator - their connection with the spirit world, or others in within the spirit world. The ability to connect outside of self, if you will. Exu as this kind of communication doesn't really care about the appropriateness of what's being communicated from a human propriety, or morality angle. But there is perhaps a legalistic sense to it, since He definitely cares whether a deal is kept or not, and He will not interfere between one who is fulfilling a promise, and the one to whom the promise is owed.

Pomba Gira knows exactly what She's about, and I wouldn't dare you to cross Her, but I definitely wouldn't compare either Her or Her husband with keepers of the peace.

--Ember--
 
 
EmberLeo
07:36 / 01.08.07
if the opportunity does not present itself and yet the Powers that Be are tapping on your door, you just have to sort things out for yerself.

I tend to agree with this, and with the sense that it's important to let TPTB guide you to the appropriate group, rather than finding TPTB via a group, unless that group is already right in front of you being obviously appropriate (in which case, perhaps TPTB have already guided you there, eh?).

I wanted to add one other thing to the conversation:

Haitian Voodoo vs. New Orleans Voodoo is one thing, I think, but Santeria is quite another. At the absoloute least, be sure you understand whether you are reaching for the Lwa or the Orixa, eh?

If it was being in New Orleans that is getting to you, and Papa Legba inspires you to song, Santeria is definitely not what you're being pushed into. All those solo resources about the Orixa are only so useful to somebody who is ultimately trying to learn more about the eclectic aspects of New Orleans-style service to the Loa.

--Ember--
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:05 / 01.08.07
Haitian Voodoo vs. New Orleans Voodoo is one thing, I think, but Santeria is quite another. At the absoloute least, be sure you understand whether you are reaching for the Lwa or the Orixa, eh?

I don't think it's so cut and dried as that. For instance, you get a lot of Orixa worship in New Orleans Voodoo. I can think of one prominant botanica in the French Quarter, ran by Mambo initiated into Haitian Vodou, which is also filled with altars to the Orixa - and both Haitian Lwa and Yoruban Orixa appear to be served and approached in a New Orleans style...
 
 
EmberLeo
09:36 / 01.08.07
It's more the other direction that concerned me. I admit, my Umbanda house is another such exception, but given the response to us, I feel it's the sort that proves the rule.

I'm to understand from just about every other source I've encountered that Orixa houses almost never include the Lwa.

So if one is being pulled to a combination of Lwa and Orixa one must take that into account, and look at those traditions that are more inclusive, like New Orleans Voodoo.

If one is specifically pulled to the Lwa, one will find a great deal more of Them in Voodoo of any stripe than in Santeria, Candomble, etc.

--Ember--
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:12 / 01.08.07
Yeah, I would agree with that. You won't find the Lwa in Santeria, but you may find the Orixa in Voodoo, especially of the New Orleans variety. Santeria Houses are often extremely rigid and codified on the parameters of the religion, how you go about things, and the specifics of tradition - whereas, by and large, Voodoo tends to be a bit looser. Many Santeros will maintain that a non-initiate should categorically not attempt to communicate with the Orixa until they have received a certain level of initiation within the religion. Whereas in Haitian Vodou, the majority of celebrants are actually non-initiates and you don't need to be a Priest or even an initiate to serve the mysteries and have an active relationship with Spirit. Ultimately, the Lwa will provide all the guidance you will ever need, including bringing you within the orbit of the right people to help you out on your journey. This sort of process isn't really accounted for in Santeria, as it's much more about the Priesthood, the oracles and the formal initiatory process. I can understand the reasons why these things are in place, and the value of maintaining such strict traditions, but I've always felt more comfortable with the more organic process of development that emerges from a New Orleans style approach.

I think another important thing to understand is that the two "nations" of deity are very different, whilst sharing some similarities. Sometimes you come across people on the internet superficially equating, say, Oshun and Erzulie Freda, but the two Goddesses are SO different, despite sharing many attributes and being concerned with similar areas.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:21 / 01.08.07
Thanks Ember, I think you are possibly right about the Satanism, thou that could act as a point of transit from one tradition to another, thou i agree they both have very different motivations.

Another one i have encountered is the Thelemic notions of Pomba Gira as Babalon and Exu as the Beast, Not really explored that one too much, i can see how the comparisons have been made, especially with regards to symbology around the Rose, but i am not sure i quite see the value of the comparative attributions, but then i have not explored it that thoroughly.

I will pick up Dow's books and see what i make of them. The astral police reference comes from this site Mario dos Ventos . I set up a devotional practice to Pomba Gira sometime ago, Some of what came through was too hard for me to handle at the time, but my circumstances have changed considerably since then, so since having a dream about Exu yesterday night (which i am not going to detail) I think its time to start working again and this seems like the most logical direction considering my slight Romany heritage and attraction to the imagery and symbols involved.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:43 / 01.08.07
The writer of the kiumbanda book, Nicholaj de Mattos Frisvold, Has some relationships to Thelema and associated organisations, Lines of Consecration . NOTIFICATION TO ALL AND SUNDRY.

 . Editor of this magazine. Just got the book, so i have only read the preface, but it looks very good, for an understanding of culture and how to apply some idea of practice.
 
 
Ticker
15:46 / 01.08.07
Well yeah but what, as they say, are you gonna do? I'm sure a lot of us would like/have liked to have got into all this with the support and blessing of a house or analagous body, but if the opportunity does not present itself and yet the Powers that Be are tapping on your door, you just have to sort things out for yerself.

Agreed in many ways but I'm currently prodding at the personal realization that I shut a lot of potential group things out and do so in part with the justification that solo is just as good. My current experience is revealing for me that this is simply not true and there are aspects of magic and religious ritual that do in fact require group energy and efforts. I may not be as clear as I'd like and it really is new to me in some ways so I maybe bumbling about in explaining my view. What resonates are some earlier posts, often GL's posts, about the role of relationship to where we are right here in our environment. A practitioner might not have access to the sacred land most often ref'd in their worship but it is hidersome to overlook the land to hand, and the sacred beings to hand. I think I'm discovering the same is true with groups, one may not have access to the groups one wishes to, they may not even exist, but not engaging with the groups to hand is problematic. In some ways the assumption of solo practitioners that they are in fact working solo seems flawed to me now as I shift my perceptions of what group work involves. It feels akin to worshipping remote Deities and not making connection with the Locals.

For example I spent a good chunk of time working with my classmates in the dojo last evening focused on chi/ki energy use. The dojo is certainly not my internal ideal of a magical group but upon reflection it certainly has all the qualities I need for one type of a functional one I can access regularly. Same for the healing circles I've been attending, and to some extent the religious music concert I attended last week and hopefully the pagan celebration I'm attending sunday. I think perhaps I am coming to understand that group events will never be a replacement for personal work and so can be spread around more than I had thought.

It may very well be that I'm realizing being around people who are celebrating, working towards self improvement, giving thanks, and appreciating each other is more important than the individual approaches and flavors each is using.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
07:52 / 02.08.07
I totally agree with you XK. I'm not a member of a formal House, but that doesn't mean I'm a solo practitioner by any means. The community aspect is really important. When I'm celebrating one of the major feasts of the Lwa or Orixa, I send out invites to all the likely suspects currently within my orbit who might enjoy such an occassion - regardless of what their main spiritual interests are or what tradition they belong to.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:21 / 02.08.07
not engaging with the groups to hand is problematic.

I generally agree with you here, but I'd still point out that it's incorrect to assume that everyone has a group or groups to hand. This is not always the case. I speak as someone who's actually been trying very hard to make contact with groups or individuals I can work with in my area, is perfectly happy to look outside her own trad (since for various reasons I'm an undesirable within it), and hasn't had a lot of luck.
 
 
Ticker
13:02 / 02.08.07
I'm not trying to hasslehoff ya Live Things, rather I'm more trying to present a realization I've recently come to. I very well may never find people worshiping in a tradition I can fully participate in, I don't even have online communities of people with the same Deities. I have a group two hours a way I can go celebrate general inclusive agricultural pagan events with but for example they are mostly NT and the folks in the community involved with Irish Deities are so vastly different from mine that for the sake of politeness I usually have to keep my opinions to myself.

I can't in good faith invoke my Deities at other people shindigs and in the extremely rare cases when others know anything about my Deities it's really poor scholarship versions that make my head go explody. So in my case my celebratory, thanksgiving, and caring for my community magic has to take a completely different form.

I'm starting to realize that in my case instead of looking around and not seeing a magical community where I live because the people worship differently, to see the ways we in fact work, worship, and connect in the same spirit. For me that is manifesting as my dojo, people getting together to pray and focus on sending healing energy to others, celebrating agricultural cycles with other people who care about such things, and possible hospice work with other volunteers.

If I can't get an occult group it no longer means I can't do the work I need to with a community, it just means I have to adjust the parameters of what such a group is.

I send out invites to all the likely suspects currently within my orbit who might enjoy such an occassion - regardless of what their main spiritual interests are or what tradition they belong to.

Yes, I'm finding it is 100% more effective to invite people to my events and make them accessible to everyone. I share what is sacred to me and try to find ways to make sure everyone can choose to participate or witness at their comfort level. I'm also taking people up on their invitations for the same reasons. Hearing another person's voice lifted in loving praise of their Deity seriously kicks ass and I am deeply honored to be invited to participate in celebrating the wonders of our existence together.

For me it is no longer about what flavor someone's worship is, but if they are open to sharing celebration without judgment and with their whole hearts. Honestly I had a more feeling of connection and magic listening to a Christian devotional than I have had at a good number of occult workings. I'm still more likely to take my need for community religious connection to the community gardens than a church mind you...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:37 / 02.08.07
I've found that's definitely the best way to go about it myself. If you begin holding semi-regular invite-only services/celebrations for your deities on their feast days, and have faith that your deities will bring the right people into your orbit, the details tend to take care of themselves. "If you build it, they will come". I think this is the best way to go about it, even if you only start off with one or two people coming along to your services, that's where it starts. I find this is a much healthier way of going about community orientated work, rather than trying to wrangle people into a working group or anything too formal. The lust of result for a ready-made community or group gets in the way of its manifestation, just as much as it would for any other act of magic. Just let such things build steam of their own accord and allow them the room to breathe and to grow organically from humble beginnings. Don't worry about it or get too hung up on any of it. Have faith that your deities will deliver the right experiences and the right people at the right time, as long as you keep your intent and are open to its manifestation.
 
 
Ticker
15:07 / 02.08.07
yeah you've hit for me here:

The lust of result for a ready-made community or group gets in the way of its manifestation, just as much as it would for any other act of magic.

I think I spent so much time looking for the thing that fit my internal blueprint I overlooked all the IRL events happening around me. That and bemoaning my lack and being envious of others got me squat.

Have faith that your deities will deliver the right experiences and the right people at the right time, as long as you keep your intent and are open to its manifestation.

It's funny because I asked for a specific kind of help. I was really thoughtful about the request and aware of my limited ability to shape the right outcome and left it to Those wiser. I would never have imagined the resulting form in a million years but it is completely dead on. I'd say currently the most challenging part of my work is not letting my preconceived ideas and prejudices shut the door on gifts I'm being given. Being mindful and present is allowing me to appreciate things I would have rejected in the past.

I find this is a much healthier way of going about community orientated work, rather than trying to wrangle people into a working group or anything too formal.

I've certainly been experiencing this with the healing group work where the intent to help others is all you need to particpate. It's been doing wonders for my perception of human beings. Suddenly I'm seeing people who really do care and who are actually invested in the wellbeing of others, even complete strangers. Pretty fucking kick ass and highly effective group magic.

Case in point my friends' kiddo Felix is not only out of his coma, but healing at a wonderful rate, and his family feels supported by an enormous network of people from around the world who care enough to pray/meditate for them. For me personally that's a fantastic example of my magical community goals.
 
 
Papess
16:56 / 02.08.07
That is good news, XK - at least Felix is healing and the family feels supported in their time of need. It would be wonderful if the best outcome would happen, but I suppose these things take time. Thank you for the reminder to send more blessings their way.

As for my own eye question a week or so ago: I have been to a doctor and he is referring me to an ophthalmologist (correct, Ember!) for further testing. It may just be related to constant computer screen use, as the image we see is not constant but constantly flashing and causing my eye to distress. Or, it could be related to a nervous system disorder. Oh joy. Which may mean some more diet and lifestyle changes. Oh bliss. Also, someone has PMed me regarding this and made a suggestion about "character armour" from Reich's work. I am going to look into that as well. I suspect that the nervous disorder and the "character armour" may have a relationship.
 
 
epona
22:39 / 02.08.07
egads, this thread is expanding and expounding and morphing more than i dared hope. thanks for all of your input, everyone, i value all of it and i have much to ponder.

xk:Yes, I'm finding it is 100% more effective to invite people to my events and make them accessible to everyone. I share what is sacred to me and try to find ways to make sure everyone can choose to participate or witness at their comfort level.

speaking as someone who has been present at your performance art/ritual ceremonies, i have to say it filled a gap for me that i was not even aware of, and was quite powerful. i highly encourage you to do more.

gypsy lantern:I've found that's definitely the best way to go about it myself. If you begin holding semi-regular invite-only services/celebrations for your deities on their feast days, and have faith that your deities will bring the right people into your orbit, the details tend to take care of themselves. "If you build it, they will come".

yes indeedy, and i see where this has great value, but what about people like me who are just beginning in a tradition and still have no idea wtf they are doing? being a part of a group and experiencing communal energy is a distant goal, yes, but it would be great to have some kind of mentor or spiritual docent. personally, i only get so far by reading books.

ember: If it was being in New Orleans that is getting to you, and Papa Legba inspires you to song, Santeria is definitely not what you're being pushed into. All those solo resources about the Orixa are only so useful to somebody who is ultimately trying to learn more about the eclectic aspects of New Orleans-style service to the Loa.

thanks for this, it helps clear up some questions. i feel you may be correct and it is the looser n'awlins voodoo that is calling to me. everything about that town calls to me - i really must live there some day. but also i understand what gypsy lantern was saying about how the place changes the religion. it's possible that may be why we have so many traditions - the spirits of the land speak up and change you and your beliefs. so perhaps i will practice a new hampshire voodoo of some sort.

again, gl: I would avoid looking for a House and simply make your introduction to the Lwa. Who is calling to you the most strongly? Whose voice do you hear most clearly in your heart?

this question had me stumped for a bit. maybe i'm looking at it through a microscope, but though i do feel very intimate with the land and the rhythms of life and the earth, sometimes i feel magickally retarded, in the true sense of that word. and then it occurs to me that i just don't know how to listen. everytime i ponder the lwa lately one name recurs in my head: erzulie dantor. could the call be as simple as that?
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:55 / 02.08.07
I found this character earlier tonight Zé Pelintra I think other people may find him interesting, i kind of wonder if every city has a saint of the streets?
 
 
EmberLeo
01:19 / 03.08.07
everytime i ponder the lwa lately one name recurs in my head: erzulie dantor. could the call be as simple as that?

For a place to start? Potentially. Personally, I would do more general looking into the Erzulies, so that you have some idea what context Erzulie Dantor comes from.

But as a matter of finding your Lwa Met Tet, or other long-term patrons, don't jump to conclusions yet. Work with what you have without trying to make it be something specific.

--Ember--
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:17 / 03.08.07
But as a matter of finding your Lwa Met Tet, or other long-term patrons, don't jump to conclusions yet. Work with what you have without trying to make it be something specific.

Seconded. It helps to have some idea of where you might be getting a pull from, but you can't really prejudge who you Mete Tet is. I wouldn't obsess over your Mete Tet at all actually. Don't worry about it. It's really up to the Lwa to come forward and make that known, not something for you to consciously figure out. You could have it divined for you by a competant Priest or Priestess, but there is always the possibility they could get it wrong, especially if it's a total stranger who you don't have a relationship with. Just get on about your business and trust that your Mete Tet will make their patronage known to you at the right time and in the right way. If it feels right, then it probably is. If it feels wrong, then it probably is. Gut instinct goes a long way.

In terms of beginning practice, you want to be keeping an ancestor altar as this is totally essential (a few old threads around here on ancestor work) and starting to make a few regular trips to the crossroads with offerings for Legba. That's it really. Legba will show you the rest if you get him onside. You go to Legba with an honest heart and ask him to open the roads to the Mysteries for you and to teach you how to communicate with the Lwa. Over time, you learn more and more, and the Mysteries begin to unfold.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:17 / 03.08.07
I really twitch in my seat every time I read people talking about finding/identifying their patron--especially in those cases where the quest is holding up the rest of their practice. Everyone is full of spirit, everyone is connected to their ancestors, the city or the land where they live, to teh places and people around them.

Having a particular God or Goddess you feel close to is something that should evolve naturally out of your practice over time. No-one needs a patron or matron deity. Certainly no-one should feel they have to worry about it or go looking. If Ze's out there, Ze'll turn up and make Hirself known in good time.

(I also see lots of people giving themselves all kinds of airs and graces just because they happen to have drawn the gaze of some Person of Restricted Embodiment or other. I reckon that half the time, people who end up with a patron or matron deity are muttonheads who need poking along.)
 
 
Closed for Business Time
09:31 / 03.08.07
Person of Restricted Embodiment - where does the phrase come from? Is it of your making, Live Mordant in you?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:51 / 03.08.07
I think so. If it's not I don't know where I read it.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
09:55 / 03.08.07
Yeah, a google thread only throws up this link to a piece you wrote.

I'm only asking because I find it very nice. Reminds of Pratchett, on his best form. YMMV, of course, but do take that as a compliment.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
09:56 / 03.08.07
Search. Google search.
 
 
EmberLeo
10:41 / 03.08.07
Go to Legba with an honest heart

And a bottle of rum.

I generally give three splashes of rum to whichever crossroads/gateway spirit I'm reaching for as a sort of greeting-in-good-faith. Even if it's not totally essentially, after a while the smell and the motions involved become a sort of cue that helps me find them.

That, and I learned to listen for laughter, but maybe that's just me...

--Ember--
 
 
Papess
12:12 / 03.08.07
Person of Restricted Embodiment

Whom does this refer to?
 
 
epona
12:36 / 03.08.07
Person of Restricted Embodiment
Whom does this refer to?

i would hazard to say live things in you is referring to The Powers That Be, those without form, spirits, gods, what have you. i quite like the phrase.
 
 
Papess
12:59 / 03.08.07
I will allow Live/MC to speak for hirself, but if what you are comprehending is true, epona, then I can't really agree with it, especially in the case of the gods. Beings of UNrestricted embodiment, perhaps.

Restricted embodiment, just makes me think of humans and beings with limited perception.

I really need to start a thread on the "Nature of the Gods". Is there one already?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:02 / 03.08.07
I think the phrase refers to the fact that they don't have their own physical bodies, and if they want to become "embodied" they have to possess one of their devotees and borrow theirs for a bit.
 
 
Papess
13:16 / 03.08.07
they have to possess one of their devotees and borrow theirs for a bit.

Do they really?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
13:18 / 03.08.07
Yes, GL, that would be my personal reading of it. Although I empathise with MO's re-phrasing "person of UNrestricted embodiment". I guess it comes down to practical context, theoretical perspective and ontological experiences. Both have their value, no?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:25 / 03.08.07
Do they really?

In certain schools of thought, yes. If you are proposing an alternative model, could you elaborate on it a bit more? I'm not sure what you are getting at.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:31 / 03.08.07
i would hazard to say live things in you is referring to The Powers That Be, those without form, spirits, gods, what have you. i quite like the phrase.

Yep. "Persons of not having much corporeal embodiment as we understand it around these parts unless they want to make a particular effort" might be more accurate but it's kind of clunky. Obviously They can be seen to have some sort of "body" because They can have some very tangible interactions with us lot, and can possess votaries and other passersby if necessary.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:37 / 03.08.07
they have to possess one of their devotees and borrow theirs for a bit. --Gypsy

Do they really? --Medulla Oblongata

Well, from what I understand of the process it seems that important things are achieved by possessing a human which can't be accomplished by other means. If you have an alternative perspective, M.O., maybe it's worth bumping the Invited possession/horsing and channeling/divine inspiration thread to lay it out?
 
  

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