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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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Unconditional Love
12:33 / 21.09.07
Banging a drum in rhythm is meditation, very similar to mantra in many senses, combining the two works very well, there are all different kinds of things reffered to as meditation by a whole range of different people and traditions, none of it really matters as long as it does the job.

Unless we are going for strictly speaking, but then even flogging can be a meditation.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:50 / 28.09.07
Question, is their any known relationship between merkavah mysticism and grimoire workings with planetary spirits. Chariot symbolism etc.

Similar lines sort of question any known connections between the 7 veils of Ishtar, classical planetary symbolism and/or merkavah mysticism?
 
 
Unconditional Love
00:02 / 29.09.07
It would seem that some authors allude to relationships but i have yet to find any conclusive evidence.

ETANA AND THE GODDESS

Etana is taken to a celestial palace, where he, having passed through several gates, finds a beautiful girl sitting on a throne guarded by lions.
All this is so reminiscent of the terminology and imagery relating to the ascent of the soul in Jewish mysticism that mere coincidence can be excluded. The several heavens and heavenly palaces which Etana passes are commonplace in Hekhalot texts and later mystical literature. The girl (read Inanna/Ishtar, or Etana´s personal goddess: Lishtar´s Note) is the Shekhinah, the Presence or Beauty of God. Etana´s fall from the heavens has ample parallels in Kabbalistic literature, where the ascent is considered a dangerous practice and the return to a normal state referred to as being "thrown down like a stone".
 
 
darth daddy
01:12 / 29.09.07
I keep having the repeating, not unpleasant, feeling that all of my magical/religious practices are no more, no less, than acting as a fan boy in a comic book convention. Lets try on the vajra suit, the hermetic/cabala tree of gnostic freedom, the hoo-doo frog loving superman. I truly love Castenada, Bertiaux, Crowley and the rest of the usual suspects, and feel I’ve learn much and rejected much as a result of their work, but the silliness of much of this makes me question whether it is the silliness which is the ultimate attraction.

Stupid question…Is the silliness the main point of this?
 
 
Papess
02:09 / 29.09.07
Is the silliness the main point of this?

It is not the main point, but it's a point. Grit your teeth and get past it. You haven't followed any system to anywhere near completion if you get stuck on silliness. Existence is splendidly more magnificent than our little human pretensions. When the constructs fall away that becomes more apparent.

It is a bit like laughing at the shiny red fire truck with the funny long hose that comes to put your house fire. Yeah, sure, you didn't need all that stuff and you made it out, but...your entire family is still trapped in there along with your dog, you cat, and your goldfish.

Still think what you are doing is silly?

(Especially your reference to "Vajra suit". Oh dear, do retrace those steps a bit more carefully. Or add a few more.)
 
 
Papess
02:21 / 29.09.07
feeling that all of my magical/religious practices are no more, no less, than acting as a fan boy in a comic book convention.

You know darth daddy, as many will tell you around here, you get what you put in.
 
 
Saturn's nod
08:54 / 29.09.07
I don't think 'grit your teeth and get past it' is the only possible approach, and nor do I think the silliness is the point.

You could take a radical/mystical approach and decide you're going to drop the silliness and reduce everything to experiencing the absolute. Practice doing that in everything you have to do, what's silly or unnecessary about it? You could provide a breakout of world peace all by yourself.

I agree that sometimes all the window dressing seems silly - when I feel that I don't do it. Sometimes it feels like I need it - then I use it.

There's a long tradition of social movements for very simple spiritual practice: I know of a few - Quakers reduced all the complexity of christian practice and worship to sitting down together to experience God; Brother Lawrence's writings about practicing the presence of God in all activities; Therese of Lisieux's Little Way of being prepared to do every tiny thing for God, ready to help people in need; certain streams of zog chen (sp?) buddhism about experiencing true nature; could you count Tao in there maybe? Probably hundreds more out there too.
 
 
Papess
10:55 / 29.09.07
I don't think 'grit your teeth and get past it' is the only possible approach,

Nor did I say it was. It is, however, an expression that wasn't meant to be taken as quite so literal. For example, there will be no need to "grit your teeth", but one does need to "get past it". Even you, apt plutology, agree with that.

You could take a radical/mystical approach and decide you're going to drop the silliness and reduce everything to experiencing the absolute.

Which, is rather what I had said to do as well. I didn't realize that it was radical, or mystical.
 
 
Saturn's nod
10:58 / 29.09.07
Ah, I'm sorry. I thought you were advising an approach of continuing to follow the system, and taking a mental attitude of not minding the silliness - pushing past it - to continue. I can see that as a valid approach, and clearly a good one to follow if there is some reason of devotion or community for staying immersed in the rituals.

I saw that as an alternative approach to the one I was proposing of allowing one's aversion to the silliness to precipitate a change of course where one dropped the system that required whatever was being experienced as silly. Perhaps I am still not understanding your point?
 
 
Papess
11:29 / 29.09.07
certain streams of zog chen (sp?) buddhism about experiencing true nature

"Dzog chen" or "Dzogchen", is generally the accepted transliteration.

And that is a wonderful suggestion, but one might find it silly as well. If darth daddy is already involved in Vajrayana, ze might feel this is that natural next step. However, the way I am taught it, it is mixed in with a lot of Tantric practices. Again, this comes down to attitude. Dzogchen is not taught without the Tantra, as Dzogchen is an approach. With Dzogchen, or using Ati yoga and Tantric yoga together you will need a teacher, as it is based on transmission.

Still, if you are making comments like "Vajra suit" I wonder if you have the right attitude. ONe needs to have the capacity to comprehend Dzogchen. One must also find a good teacher because it is meant to be taught in that manner. You can't learn it from a book.
 
 
Papess
11:52 / 29.09.07
...allowing one's aversion to the silliness to precipitate a change of course where one dropped the system that required whatever was being experienced as silly. Perhaps I am still not understanding your point?

Hmm, I am not sure I am understanding your point now! However, the suggestion of Dzogchen is supberb, (I would think that!). Even Tantra is good in this instance because it teaches about Mahamudra, where one learns of "one taste". The same in Dzogchen. It may be a way for DD to comprehend true nature and that it is both silly and not silly at once. This is why Tantra is usually used in association with Dzogchen teachings, because it is rare to find a mind without bias. Tantra is excellent for purifying the mind tendency to cherish some thoughts, emotions, or ideas over others. This cherishing has to cease, or at least become very subtle before Dzogchen will be helpful.
 
 
darth daddy
12:32 / 29.09.07
I honestly did not mean "silly" in any derogatory way. I like the teaching that any practice is a raft that should be left behind on the other side. Mahamudra is my main practice, and I regularly practice the "clear light" teachings of the Kelsang Gyatso books. Back in the 80's I was involved with Swami Chetananda in Boston, had some mindblowing experiences. However, from what I have read, this devolved into a rather abusive cult and I am loath to seek any further initiations from "masters". Cheers to me for not following through, as selling flowers at the airport has little appeal. Has anyone had any experience with the "New Kamapada School"?
 
 
Saturn's nod
14:11 / 29.09.07
Okay, then I completely misunderstood, please ignore my wittering.
 
 
Papess
14:14 / 29.09.07
Has anyone had any experience with the "New Kamapada School"?

I am sorry, but I have not heard good things about this school. On the forum of E-Sangha, members are asked not to mention it as it is too controversial. The controversy revolves around Kelsang Gyatso's insistence that a particular deity, Dorje Shugden can be practiced, despite the request of the Dalai Lama. Now, I am not of the Gelugpa school, but I can't imagine why it is so necessary to practice this one deity.

I have my own opinions about it, but you may want to make your own.

Personally, if my Teacher, or the head of my lineage said i shouldn't do a practice anymore, why would I feel they were taking my "religious freedoms" away? That is a ridiculous statement. The idea of practicing Buddhism isn't about my "religious freedoms", it is simply about my liberation. AND if I am so stuck on the practice of a deity that I cannot give it up if advised to, then I am not liberated. Simple as that.
 
 
Papess
14:21 / 29.09.07
I am loath to seek any further initiations from "masters"

Which is unfortunate because there are good teachers out there, even if they are rare.

Please read Fifty Stanzas on Guru Devotion. It may help to define what a good teacher is. I am lucky, I belong to a good lineage, and I have a pure teacher. It took me many years to realize how fortunate my Sangha is. I am probably the worst stain on my lineage.
 
 
Papess
15:20 / 29.09.07
Some more handy links for information on NKT, Kelsang Gyatso, and the Dorje Shugden controversy.

The Tibetan Administration on Controversy Surrounding Dorjee Shugden Practice

The New Kadampa Tradtion as they represent themselves

The Centre for Studies on New Religions

Here are some interesting POVs on a Beliefnet forum.

I am just happy that none of this controversy in anyway directly involves my Teacher, my Sangha, or myself. It is sad enough for me that it is happening at all.
 
 
darth daddy
20:55 / 29.09.07
"Never disturb your Guru’s mind. Should you be foolish and happen to do this, you will surely boil in hell."

As irritating as I can be, I don't need this kind of heat.
 
 
Papess
14:39 / 30.09.07
You know Ev, I expected more from you in regards to being respectful and in understanding the Guru-student relationship.

I wouldn't trust most people on this Earth the way I would my own teacher. I have been foolish and tried to do to trust others, and yes, those people let me down. No big surprise.

Good deal for the guru. Not so great for the disciple.

Fuck that noise.


It is a very difficult relationship to understand, but the pure teacher/guru is not concerned for themself. If you are more concerned about things rather than your liberation, this will seem like a bum deal. However Ev, you are looking at it from a worldly perspective.

If you knew someone that could guide to your liberation, cut through your suffering, confusion and fears, and clinging to self-cherishing ways; someone who revealed your true nature and inexhaustible potential to you...you might feel as well, that giving the world to that someone couldn't come close to expressing your gratitude. Besides, what would that mean anyway to give? You are simply giving to yourself, really.

I feel very lucky to have a pure teacher, or else, yeah, I might feel the way you do, Ev. As it is, I cannot repay my Guru for His kindness even if I had two worlds to give Him.


Also, it is very important to learn what to look for in a guru. They should be humble and extremely knowledgeable in all the sutras and tantras. To be fair, these are the qualities to look for:

In general a Mahayana Guru should have the following ten qualities: (1) discipline as a result of his mastery of the training in the higher discipline of moral self-control, (2) mental quiescence from his training in higher concentration, (3) pacification of all delusions and obstacles form his training in higher wisdom, (4) more knowledge than his disciple in the subject to be taught, (5) enthusiastic perseverance and joy in teaching, (6) a treasure of scriptural knowledge, (7) insight into and an understanding of Voidness, (8) skill in presenting the teachings, (9) great compassion and (10) no reluctance to teach and work for his disciples regardless of their level of intelligence.

A Tantric Master must have even more good qualities, as listed in the text. Most important is that he be an extremely stable person, with his body, speech and mind totally under control.

There are two set of ten fields in which the Guru must be a complete master. The ten inner ones are essential for teaching the yoga and anuttarayoga classes of tantra, which stress the importance of purifying mainly internal mental activities. These are expertise in (1) visualizing wheels of protection and eliminating obstacles, (2) preparing and consecrating protection knots and amulets to be worn around the neck, (3) conferring the vase and secret empowerments, planting the seeds for attaining a Buddha’s Form Bodies, (4) conferring the wisdom and word empowerments, planting the seeds for attaining a Buddha’s Wisdom Bodies, (5) separating
the enemies for Dharma from their own protectors, (6) making offerings, such as sculptured tormas, (7) reciting mantras, both verbally and mentally, that is visualizing them revolving around his heart, (8) performing wrathful ritual procedures for forcefully catching the attention of the meditational deities and protectors, (9) consecrating images and statues and (10) making mandala offerings, performing the meditational practices (sadhana) and taking self-initiations.

The ten external qualities are required for teaching the kriya and carya classes of tantra, which stress the importance of purifying mainly external activities in connection with internal mental processes. These are expertise in (1) drawing, constructing and visualizing the mandala abodes of the meditational deities, (2) maintaining the different states of single-minded concentration (samadhi), (3) executing the hand gestures (mudras), (4) performing the ritual dances, (5) sitting in the full meditational position, (6) reciting what is appropriate to these two classes of tantra, (7) making fire offerings, (8) making the various other offerings, (9) performing the rituals of (a) pacification of disputes, famine and disease, (b) increase of life span, knowledge and wealth, (c) power to influence others and (d) wrathful elimination of demonic forces and interferences, and (10) invoking meditational deities and dissolving them back into their appropriate places.

It is not sufficient for a Tantric Master merely to know how to perform the superficial actions of these above rituals. He must actually be able to do them. For instance, when consecrating an image of a meditational deity, he must be able to invoke the actual deity and place it in the image, not merely recite the words of the accompanying text. If you take as your Guru a Master with all these qualifications and powers, and he accepts you as his disciple, you must devote yourself fully to him. Although it is possible that out of delusion you might disagree with your Guru, never show him disrespect or despise him from the depth of your heart.


And remember, the respect you show a your guru is for your own benefit. Taking a worldly POV will only increase your attachments to worldliness rather than spiritual aims.

(16)

(If from a lack of awareness you have shown disrespect) to your Guru, reverently present an offering to him and seek his forgiveness. Then in the future such harm as plagues will not befall you.

As a Buddha, a Guru will never hold a grudge, showing him disrespect cannot possibly offend or hurt him. The only one you harm is yourself. Therefore if you repent and beg his forgiveness, he will accept what you offer with great compassion. Then by the force of your faith, respect and devotion, you need not experience great misfortune.

The beneficial effects of Guru-devotion and the dire consequences of a breach of it are not rewards and punishments from a godly Guru. They follow directly from cause and effect. Your Guru is the focal point for your practices leading to Enlightenment. The more devoted you are towards the state of perfection he represents, the closer you come toward this goal. Despising him can only tale you further away into darkness and ignorance.


To add to this even more, if one is afraid of becoming poor and not having enough, it is generally said in magick that this is what you will thus generate. So, giving to the guru can only generate wealth, rather than the grasping misconcpetion that it would deplete it.
 
 
Princess
14:57 / 30.09.07
I still find it a problematic idea. I mean, what if your, hypothetical, guru isn't actually all that good and is just a very very realistic fake? You seem very happy with your guru relationship, which is cool. .trampetunia adores his too.

But I just worry that as a system it is too open to abuse. That kind of power imbalance has the potential to go horribly wrong if it involves the wrong people.
 
 
Papess
15:19 / 30.09.07
Yes, you are so right, Princess. It can happen that someone is calling one's self a master but is simply a charlatan. I would use the what I quoted above to qualify a possible guru, and one's own common sense. If the person in question is intolerant to such inquisition, then I would have serious doubt about the authenticity of that person's knowledge and ability.

It should be noted that this type of abuse happens in various other religions and spiritual sects. Trusting the priest of a church is one obvious instance. Perhaps, there may be an shaman with an agenda in another tradition. I do know that abusive people are everywhere, whether they are disguised in robes, jeans, or suits.
 
 
Papess
15:27 / 30.09.07
As for my own experience with a my Guru: it took me about twenty years to trust Him. I wish I had the capacity to recognize Him as true as some of other people that I know have. Seeing their trust never fade, but increase over twenty or more years with Him, also helped me to be able to trust.

So, look to the teacher's other students for clues to authenticity. Do they seem weak-willed or of dull character themselves? Are they knowledgeable in themselves? What have they gained from having the relationship with their Guru? Even observing the students and how they interact amongst themselves should be a clue to the authenticity of a Guru. Questions like that should help.
 
 
EvskiG
17:35 / 30.09.07
You know Ev, I expected more from you in regards to being respectful and in understanding the Guru-student relationship.

Really? I can't imagine why. I've always been extremely skeptical of the Guru-student relationship.

Why? Because so many gurus -- even historically famous and renowned gurus -- have been known to abuse their students' trust, whether it's Aleister Crowley fucking his students, or Krishnamurti fucking his students, or Bhajan Yogi fucking his students (hmm . . . I'm seeing a pattern here), or the many, many gurus who otherwise have abused the spiritual, bodily, financial, etc. trust their students place in them.

For what it's worth, I'm also pretty skeptical about the whole idea of lineage.

Why? Because so many people simply lie about it, whether it's Fraulein Sprengel and the Secret Chiefs, the Yoga Karunta being "eaten by ants," or the ancient secrets of the Kabbalah that were made up in the 13th century.

Also because I see lineage as essentially irrelevant. Either a practice works and is relevant to me or it isn't. It doesn't matter to me, for example, that most of hatha yoga was synthesized out of a combination of ancient texts and purely mundane 19th century English and Indian gymnastic exercises. It works. For me.

I wouldn't trust most people on this Earth the way I would my own teacher. I have been foolish and tried to do to trust others, and yes, those people let me down. No big surprise.

Good for you. You found a teacher who works for you, and who I'm sure is worthy of your trust. But I'm not sure why you'd go beyond that to make statements about the Guru-teacher system as a whole.

If you are more concerned about things rather than your liberation, this will seem like a bum deal. However Ev, you are looking at it from a worldly perspective.

I'm not one to let a desire for liberation (whatever that is) blind me to practical realities. Personally, I try to maintain a nice balance between the spiritual and practical, and always maintain a healthy degree of skepticism. You may disagree with my opinion on that.

If you knew someone that could guide to your liberation, cut through your suffering, confusion and fears, and clinging to self-cherishing ways; someone who revealed your true nature and inexhaustible potential to you...you might feel as well, that giving the world to that someone couldn't come close to expressing your gratitude. Besides, what would that mean anyway to give? You are simply giving to yourself, really.

If I knew someone that could do all those things? I suppose so. But I'm not sure what you see as my (or your) basis for knowing that a given teacher could accomplish all -- or any -- of those things. Or that the guru actually was necessary for accomplishing all or any of those things.

In general a Mahayana Guru should have the following ten qualities: (1) discipline as a result of his mastery of the . . .

Long, long list.

That's fine, and it includes lots of stuff I'd look for in a teacher, but why should I (or anyone else) take it as in any way meaningful, let alone authoritative?

And how would I assess a potential guru's ability to, say, visualize wheels of protection?

And remember, the respect you show a your guru is for your own benefit. Taking a worldly POV will only increase your attachments to worldliness rather than spiritual aims.

That's certainly something I'd say if I were a guru, or if I had an interest in perpetuating the guru system. Similarly, I suppose I could say that questioning the doctrines of the Catholic church would only lead me farther and farther from salvation. But why should I take skepticism as a "worldly POV," and why should I believe that skepticism automatically is detrimental to spiritual aims?

As a Buddha, a Guru will never hold a grudge, showing him disrespect cannot possibly offend or hurt him. The only one you harm is yourself. Therefore if you repent and beg his forgiveness, he will accept what you offer with great compassion. Then by the force of your faith, respect and devotion, you need not experience great misfortune.

Do you really believe that your Guru, who I assume is a human being, is superhuman, is a Buddha, "will never hold a grudge"? Perhaps it's just me, but I've never yet met a person like this.

There are people I've considered spiritual teachers, from people at work to people on Barbelith to famous religious writers and figures. But I've never considered any of them, up to Jesus, Buddha, or old uncle Aleister, to be superhuman.

I'm a big fan of B.K.S. Iyengar, for example. Why? Because I've personally found his yoga teachings very helpful, I've never known him to lie about his teachings or practices, and I've found every teacher I've had that he's personally trained to be excellent. He's got a lot of credit in my book.

But I still see no reason to trust him -- or anyone else -- without reservation.
 
 
Papess
18:30 / 30.09.07
But I'm not sure why you'd go beyond that to make statements about the Guru-teacher system as a whole.

Why shouldn't I? You did.

Do you really believe that your Guru, who I assume is a human being, is superhuman, is a Buddha, "will never hold a grudge"?

Yep.

Perhaps it's just me, but I've never yet met a person like this.

Shame. Maybe you will someday. Maybe you will be too skeptical to realize it. I dunno.

Why? Because so many gurus -- even historically famous and renowned gurus -- have been known to abuse their students' trust, whether it's Aleister Crowley fucking his students, or Krishnamurti fucking his students, or Bhajan Yogi fucking his students (hmm . . . I'm seeing a pattern here), or the many, many gurus who otherwise have abused the spiritual, bodily, financial, etc. trust their students place in them.

Yes, well, controversy sells. the quiet and uncontroversial teachers who give good guidance and care for their students properly hardly make the papers.

It is also why I suspect my Guru has chosen to remain celibate and certainly gives away at least half of what he receives, if not more.

I'm a big fan of B.K.S. Iyengar, for example. Why? Because I've personally found his yoga teachings very helpful, I've never known him to lie about his teachings or practices, and I've found every teacher I've had that he's personally trained to be excellent. He's got a lot of credit in my book.

Iyengar isn't, from what I can tell, a fully realized being...yet.

But I've never considered any of them, up to Jesus, Buddha, or old uncle Aleister, to be superhuman.

Superhuman is really your word. My perspective is that most humans have barely begun to realize their own potential. Realizing it doesn't make one superhuman, it makes them fully human.

I'm not one to let a desire for liberation (whatever that is) blind me to practical realities. Personally, I try to maintain a nice balance between the spiritual and practical, and always maintain a healthy degree of skepticism. You may disagree with my opinion on that.

I don't disagree. What I was disagreeable to is the flippantly "fuck that" comment you made. Which I see you have now asked to be deleted. That is what I was responding to. That wasn't respectful skepticism, that was IMHO, a bit rude. If I said the same of someone's spirit guides I would have a lot of people here pissed off at me. For some reason, it is okay to do regarding the Guru system because, well, they are in human form, after all.

Also, "blind"? I hope you are no way referring to myself. Maybe you didn't read the part where I spoke of observing this teacher for almost twenty years? I hardly think I am going into this blindly. In hindsight though, I think I was blind for not seeing the purity of my teacher before.

Look, I don't recommend it for everyone Ev, but it is a gift if you can be blessed with a relationship that is of this caliber. Denouncing a whole system so flippantly because there are a few fuckwits who have abused it is not fair. Should I say that people should never have children anymore because some people abuse children?

Let's also get it straight that I was responding to what seemed like a rude comment which I suppose on some reflection, you realized Ev, was not in good taste and chose to have deleted which rather throws my response askew.
 
 
EvskiG
19:12 / 30.09.07
My "fuck that noise" was a response to such statements such as:

Never disturb your Guru’s mind. Should you be foolish and happen to do this, you will surely boil in hell.

If you are so foolish as to despise your Guru, you will contract contagious diseases and those caused by harmful spirits. You will die(a horrible death) caused by demons, plagues or poison.

From the Fifty Stanzas on Guru Devotion that you linked to, and which (those specific statements, that is) I continue to think are entirely asinine.

I did ask for my comment to be deleted, however (before I saw your lengthy post), since some might interpret it as a broader critique than I intended.

More later.
 
 
Papess
20:42 / 30.09.07
From the Fifty Stanzas on Guru Devotion that you linked to, and which (those specific statements, that is) I continue to think are entirely asinine.

Just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it asinine.

This text on Guru devotion is widely accepted. I suggest you learn more about what Guru-devotion means in a healthy relationship rather than focusing upon the hyperbole of the media. Maybe you could learn just a little bit more about what is meant by the Fifty Stanzas before you make assumptions and flippant commentary. I expect it from a newbie like Darth Daddy, but you have been here too long to be that thoughtless, Ev.

I really don't want to argue this anymore. If you don't like it, that is fine by me. I wishing to convince anyone that Guru-devotion is the only path. BUT, it is my path. So, please have some respect.


I did ask for my comment to be deleted, however (before I saw your lengthy post), since some might interpret it as a broader critique than I intended.


No kidding? Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
 
 
darth daddy
23:06 / 30.09.07
True story. I’m at a meditation, chanting thing with Guru Chetananda. We’re making chanty type noises (after which we were promised vegetarian fare). I, not being within the same zip code as peaceful or politically correct , am not “one” with the chanting, thinking that said Guru is probably, in the parlance of those times, “banging” the more attractive female students., (which, as I learned later, he certainly was). Then he starts duck, duck goosing the students, who spaz similarly to the devoted followers of the great American guru, Benny Hinn. “You are HEALED”. This goes on , of course, until I get “duck, duck, goosed”, I.e. Shaktipat. Of course, I feel that someone has injected pure cocaine through the top of my skull. Yes, its that good. Does it matter the purity of the “master” or is the sharing of the knowledge or power more important?

I certainly would sacrifice my “man virginity”, (being the man whore that I am) for true knowledge and/or power. The messed up part about tantra is that we are dealing with power, which certainly give rise to serious risk of an abuse of power. See Julius Evola’s work. In my experience, if you deal with powerful people, you certainly must anticipate getting steamrolled as part of the process. There’s a bumper sticker saying that blaming a gun for murder is like blaming a spoon for weight gain. When dealing in tantra, you are dealing in power, and it isn’t always nice or pleasant. Which is the reason for the legendary abuses of gurus like Chetananda, Crowley et al. The lam rim teaching, three jewels, are the fail safe in dealing with these powers, in my opinion. It does not mean that such teachings are “true”.
 
 
EvskiG
23:36 / 30.09.07
Do you really believe that your Guru, who I assume is a human being, is superhuman, is a Buddha, "will never hold a grudge"?

Yep.


OK. I believe that you believe that.

I've met some interesting people over the years but, as I said, I've never yet met a person like that.

Shame. Maybe you will someday. Maybe you will be too skeptical to realize it.

I'm not sure why you think skepticism would keep me from realizing it.

It is also why I suspect my Guru has chosen to remain celibate

No reflection on your guru, who I'm sure is a model of integrity, but it's funny how often people thought the same of, say, Krishnamurti, Yogi Bhajan, and quite a few others . . .

Iyengar isn't, from what I can tell, a fully realized being...yet.

Personally, I haven't yet seen any evidence that would convince me that anyone is a "fully realized being."

That wasn't respectful skepticism, that was IMHO, a bit rude. If I said the same of someone's spirit guides I would have a lot of people here pissed off at me. For some reason, it is okay to do regarding the Guru system because, well, they are in human form, after all.

I didn't say it about your guru, of course, I said it about specific stanzas in the Fifty Stanzas. As I'd imagine you've seen, I also say that sort of thing pretty frequently about the Gospel of John, various Hebrew texts, and so forth.

Also, "blind"? I hope you are no way referring to myself.

Of course not. I don't really know you.

Just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it asinine.

Absolutely true that not understanding the two statements I noted above wouldn't make them asinine. So if you'd like to assume I don't understand them, please feel free to explain either of them.

This text on Guru devotion is widely accepted.

Personally, I've never seen "wide acceptance" as a basis for belief. Your opinion may differ.

I suggest you learn more about what Guru-devotion means in a healthy relationship rather than focusing upon the hyperbole of the media.

I've read a passable amount on the subject, but I'm always ready to learn more. At the same time, I think that guru devotion is incredibly problematic as a practice because it seems to require a substantial amount of trust without any guarantee that that trust is justified. And, in fact, it seems that that trust very often isn't justified.

Maybe you could learn just a little bit more about what is meant by the Fifty Stanzas before you make assumptions and flippant commentary.

I was commenting on the text in front of me. Naturally, I think I have as much right to comment on that text as I do on the Gospel of John or any other religious or philosophical work that comes to my attention. But if you think I'm missing something, please explain it to me.

I expect it from a newbie like Darth Daddy, but you have been here too long to be that thoughtless, Ev.

Didn't think I was being thoughtless. And, for better or worse, I think my comments were pretty typical of my posts.

I really don't want to argue this anymore.

Are we arguing or having a discussion?

If you don't like it, that is fine by me. I wishing to convince anyone that Guru-devotion is the only path. BUT, it is my path. So, please have some respect.

I certainly have respect for you. And I'm almost always willing to be polite.

I did ask for my comment to be deleted, however (before I saw your lengthy post), since some might interpret it as a broader critique than I intended.

No kidding? Hindsight is a wonderful thing.


Well, I don't regret my comments and I still stand by them. But, as I said, I usually try to be polite.
 
 
Papess
02:46 / 01.10.07
What I should have said, Ev, is I don't want to argue about this. I realize that this is a discussion. It is certainly not nasty. I really would like to see a different approach to this discussion. I just don't have the full on time to create it. It is really unfortunate that really honest and good teacher are viewed with suspicion because of a number of leaches. It upsets me that this tradition is seen as "problematic".

I totally have trust issues, but I have evidence that satisfies me in regards to my Guru. In fact, having this discussion with you Ev, only reinforces to me just how truly blessed I am to have a Guru that is only concerned with His students enlightenment and well-being. It makes me very sad that someone might look at my Guru and think that He "...is probably,..., “banging” the more attractive female students"

Which reminds me, WTF are you on about, darth daddy? Sudden case of Trollitis?

*ahem*...Now that that is out of my system...Ev, what bothers me about some of the statements you made, is that your focus is on the controversy. I think I could name many more genuine and honest teachers than I could name you crooked ones.

I have to go to sleep, but we can talk about this further. I feel so lucky.
 
 
EvskiG
03:22 / 01.10.07
No problem. You sound really fortunate.

Perhaps we can discuss what, if anything, separates a guru from just a regular old teacher, here or in another topic.
 
 
Papess
14:18 / 01.10.07
I think that might make an interesting thread, Ev. I will check the archives. A companion thread, perhaps, to the Tantric/deity yoga thread I have promised to start. I just have a couple of days of getting some things in order, and then I can get on those two threads.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
17:10 / 01.10.07
Hey.

I have a question. Wednesday I am going to a funeral. It's the first time I'll be in a Roman Catholic funeral (in Ireland). I have been raised (way-ull) a Lutheran Protestant, and I would just like to ask the Temple is there anything I should be aware of? Do's and don't's?
 
 
Jack Fear
17:26 / 01.10.07
Depends. If it's a full Mass, with celebration of the Eucharist, you should not receive Communion, since it means something rather different to Catholics than to other Christians. Simply remain in your seat when the time comes; if this proves impracticable, you may join the line—but when you are offered the bread and the cup, put one hand over your heart and bow slightly, then follow the line back to your seat.

Other than that, just do what everybody else does; you should be able to follow the order of the Mass in the missal or program, but even if you can't, just stand and sit and kneel when those around you do.
 
 
Quantum
17:32 / 01.10.07
Don't ask whether the tabernacle is a posh breadbin. Trust me.

Medulla, Ev, I'd totally be in on a guru thread but I'd like it more general than just tantra- I follow someone and don't talk about it much for all the obvious reasons.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
17:47 / 01.10.07
Thanks, Jack Fear. That actually helps a good deal.
The bit about not receiving communion I have experience of before, from my mother's foray into Jehova's Witnesses- they too have a more bounded, guarded communion than the state Lutheran C of Norway.

Im sure I'll be fine. I suspect a church full of grieving people will have some other things on their mind than a bumbling heathen.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
17:48 / 01.10.07
And you too, Quants, cheers!
 
  

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