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Marvel Mythology Surgery

 
  

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Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
23:44 / 12.07.06
Tricks: Well, Black Widow II, who was burned to a crisp at the end of that story, has now (as of NA Annual 2006) become a super adaptoid. Does that count?

Huh.

Huh.

Okay, Black Widow II? Who was she, in relation to Natasha? Do we like her? What was it about her that differeniated from Natasha?

And, okay, "Super-Adaptoid?" Did they smite those things eons ago? Didn't they evolve out of cosmic cubes or accidentally adapt the cube's powers or something? Yes?
 
 
Mario
00:15 / 13.07.06
Black Widow II (Yelena Belova) was trained by the same spymasters as Natasha. She first appeared (in a cameo) in the Jenkins Inhumans miniseries, and later had two minis of her own. Then she basically disappeared until Bendis got ahold of her.

The original Adaptoid (later the Super-Adaptoid) was an AIM creation, partially powered by a sliver of Cosmic Cube. It's basically in limbo at the moment.

Yelena was transformed into a new Adaptoid by AIM scientists working for Hydra. The primary difference is she turned shades of yellow, not green. When she failed, her self-destruct was triggered. She may have survived (you never know)
 
 
This Sunday
01:05 / 13.07.06
The blonde Black Widow also has the misfortune of being written by writers who are often very concerned with keeping at the fore that they are writing a woman. So her bras and her period and her sex-issues are immediately integral to all storis, and the current Widow semi-regular writer wrote her off by surrendering her entire life as a spy to work at an S&M parlor or model lingerie... or both.

Arguably, all of this could be handled nicely in certain hands and with certain methods, but it's not. It's there because she's a woman. And we have to remember that, as readers, just as the writers must, and it has to guide and shape every story she's in. Or something.

Actually, her Devon Grayson mini wasn't too bad. I like the character concept and some of her tics, but really, they need a writer on her that's not... why am I afraid that since Bendis has taken a liking to her, they'll shift her to her own book and have Chuck Dixon write it? Oh, that's right, 'cause she's a woman and so, has to be written as a woman (and model lingerie while failing at the job she's been trained all her life for at every turn - and maybe getting irrationally emotional and falling for Nick Fury) instead of just being written as a replacement superspy jetting around the world and shooting many people while looking excellent, and not getting caught. Or, again, something.

They wouldn't do it if it were almost any male character. Daredevil, maybe, but we know he's a fetish-obsessed slut in lawyer drag. They wouldn't do it with Nick Fury or Batman, y'know?
 
 
sn00p
17:18 / 16.07.06
So was Ronin a New Avenger?
I didn't read all of the new avengers, but i remember all this "who is ronin?" stuff on the internet. I picked up the last arc, yknow the collective one, and she's not even in it. And she wasn't in civil war or House of M.
Was she a bad idea which was dropped like a hot potato?
 
 
Mario
18:13 / 16.07.06
I'm not sure Ronin ever joined, officially. The character had one arc, then dropped into Limbo
 
 
Bubblegum Death
20:33 / 16.07.06
In the latest issue of Wizard, I think Bendis said Ronin will be back in issue 26.
 
 
aku aku
20:29 / 08.08.06
Whats the deal with Hank Pym and his Pym particles, I read something about them being detrimental to the user. Is this why he occasionally a whacked out wife beater?
 
 
The Falcon
20:42 / 08.08.06
I went digging and found Pym's mental problems (lengthy), which a skim of doesn't appear to demonstrate any evidence of, but has some pretty fascinating conclusions nonetheless, involving tulpas and m.p.d.:

Recent issues of the Avengers have depicted a returned Yellowjacket somehow physically separated from Goliath, and have demonstrated a psychological split between the two as well which might be characterised as emotion vs logic.

The physical process of this has yet to be explained. It seems logical to surmise that the magical field of Kulan Gath which physically transformed other Avengers at the time was the catalyst for this split also, and that since Pym particles can create excess matter it was simple to spin off a second body for half of Hank's personality. It is also possible that this is Immortus making good his promise to Yellowjacket from Avengers Forever that YJ would survive and "get the girl".

However, the psychological process is more interesting still. During the Avengers Day parade when the Vision commented about Hank's various costume changes and the reuse of elements from previous outfits Hank replied that he never used the Yellowjacket motifs, because it was in that identity that he had struck his wife. In other words, Hank's guilt has forced him to repress all that part of his personality, and he has used it as a scapegoat for his failures and inadequacies. On another level though, Hank once used Yellowjacket as the vehicle through which he could get away with things that he wouldn't normally do or say. Unrepressed YJ won the Wasp where staid Goliath couldn't.

So in the physical split we have Hank Pym's recurring dilemma of self-confidence, of identity, of competition even with himself, of guilt at the past, or hopes for the future, writ large. Whether that leads to the next rise or the next fall of Hank Pym remains to be seen. But whatever happens, Hank Pym remains one of the most human of comics characters, and one who is interesting because of, not in spite of, his rich and storied past.
 
 
Mario
21:49 / 08.08.06
As for the Particles themselves... there doesn't seem to be a correlation between using them and madness. There have only been a few Pym Particle powered heroes, and most of them seem pretty sane.

Specifically:

Hank Pym (aka Ant-Man, GiAnt-Man, Goliath, Yellowjacket, etc)
Wasp
Black Goliath
Scott Lang (Ant-Man II)
Yellowjacket II.
Atlas of the Thunderbolts (at one time)
Stature of the Young Avengers.
Briefly, Hawkeye.

Only Pym himself (and possibly Atlas) has had major mental issues
 
 
Evil Scientist
06:26 / 09.08.06
Aku, you might be thinking of another Avengers staple, ionic energy. That apparently can have a deterimental effect on the user's mind. I couldn't find anything about it on the Wonder Man wiki, but ionic energies were (partly) responsible for Atlas beating Captain Marvel into a coma a way back in Thunderbolts.
 
 
aku aku
17:51 / 09.08.06
hmm, probably, I just remember reading somewhere that hawkeye was one of the few people who've used Pym particles and not gone nuts. Although that might just be a comment on the themes within the comics rather than an actual plot point. I'd somehow got it into my head they'd somehow used the old 'only person x can use the maguffin to get superpowers' much like Hourman and his super vitamins, and/or the old favorite 'my powers are killing me, but people need me!'.

Also in civil war 3 the Wask says to Yellowjacket 'Hank please we can do this without you having to grow' during the fight scene, but thinking about it now thats probably juat a reference to the fact there about to beat the crap out of their mates.

Am I completly off the mark when I remember something about a superhero who grew in size and this put pressure on his heart or something?
 
 
Mario
18:20 / 09.08.06
That was Bill Foster, aka Giant-Man II, Black Goliath, and Goliath III (or possibly IV), I think.
 
 
rabideyemovement
21:30 / 09.08.06
Are the Wasp's wings actual wasp wings? I know that Pym surgically attached them to her back, but when she grows to human size, does she have two really tiny wasp wings still wiggling in her shoulders?
 
 
Mario
21:59 / 09.08.06
Basically, yes, although I believe they are hidden under two little scars.
 
 
doctorbeck
07:07 / 10.08.06
just reading the busiek avengers run and that power that lets hank carry very small mobile laboratories around with him is i think the lamest thing i have seen in the long lame history of the man who whose powers, as millar so wonderfully put it, just involve things growing bigger and things getting smaller.
 
 
Mario
11:33 / 10.08.06
You can thank Steve Engelhart for that idea. He came up with it during West Coast Avengers, and Pym's short-lived (but sorta fun) "Scientific Adventurer" phase.
 
 
Quimper
13:25 / 10.08.06
Otherwise known as the Red-Jumpsuit-With-Lots-of-Pockets Phase. He would keep hundreds of shrunken objects in his cargo gear, like my personal favorite, a chainsaw.
 
 
Triplets
14:06 / 10.08.06
Can't cut the turkey, unscrew a nut or resole a boot? Swiss Army Man is here!

Not sure why you guys think that's lame. That's some pretty cool suprhero stuff right there.
 
 
Mario
14:59 / 10.08.06
Dwayne McDuffie seems to be revisiting that phase in Beyond, although with a slightly better costume.

And I can't help but mention that the red jumpsuit replaced an outfit with a long coat, hat, and a scarf. Looks like Pym turned to another Doctor for inspiration.
 
 
tickspeak
15:03 / 10.08.06
He carries A FUCKING QUINJET in his BACK POCKET! That he SHOOTS WITH A RAYGUN TO MAKE IT GROW TO FULL SIZE AND FLY HIS ASS AWAY. How is that not completely awesome?????
 
 
Mario
15:55 / 10.08.06
Last I knew, it wasn't a raygun but his powers. Did they change it?
 
 
Triplets
16:38 / 10.08.06
He must be pretty organised though, I can barely remember which pocket I keep my phone in half the time. I'd end up trying to fight Doctor Doom with a Saab.
 
 
Axolotl
16:43 / 10.08.06
It was a field of Pym particles surrounding him that enabled him to shrink/expand stuff (according to wikipedia).
I reckon while it was kind of a lame switch to pull on an established character it would have been a much better use of shrinking/growing powers than the original Ant-man concept, which is frankly a bit shit.
 
 
tickspeak
18:27 / 10.08.06
DAMN, I could have sworn he had a Pym Particle Projector or something that he'd fire at things to make them grow. But clearly I'm just imposing my own desires onto the character.
 
 
Mario
20:48 / 10.08.06
You may be thinking about the Jack Monroe Scourge. He had something like that.
 
 
aku aku
14:48 / 11.08.06
As a character I always thought Giant Man was crap, even Scott Lang was more interesting. I'm bermused as to why the Avengers are so popular

just look at the original line up

Giant Man - Dull power - wife beater
Wasp - same dull power, but in reverse
Iron Man - acholic arms dealer
Hulk - builds nuclear weapons and smashes up towns/tanks

of the original line Caps the only one I actually like, yes thats right Captain America the guys designed to be a walking piece propaganda, it wasn't that long ago he was 'smashing the japs' or something equally un-pc

actually I forgot all about Thor, which says a lot

and what exactley do they avenge?
 
 
Aertho
15:01 / 11.08.06
Cap wasn't an original member.
 
 
aku aku
15:30 / 11.08.06
True, but if my memory serves me correctly he joined shortly after, issue 4?

So technically the only one of the original Avengers I actually liked wasn't an original Avenger...

Am I in the minority here with the less than enthusiastic love for the Avengers?
 
 
doyoufeelloved
15:57 / 11.08.06
I've never really gotten the Avengers myself. Who are they? What's the point? What do they do? Thinking of them as just the big A-list team, a la the JLA at their best, should be fun and satisfying, but Avengers history never seems to bear that out -- it's always clogged with characters who have no lives beyond the Avengers milieu or who will never be A-list no matter how much an editor / writer / artist wants them to be. I gather that there are some "classic" Avengers stories, but they're so intermittently in print -- and generally "classic" in the way that I really don't like superhero comics to be -- that I've never bothered reading them. As far as Marvel teams go, I'll always pledge allegiance to the X-Men; and in a JLA / Avengers matchup I'll pick the JLA every time (not in a OMG SUPERMAN WOULD BEAT UP THOR way, just in an entertainment way).

Can anybody provide a counter-argument to this that will make me like the Avengers?
 
 
Mario
16:13 / 11.08.06
I think you are being a little unfair. After all, most of what you are decrying about the original lineup took place YEARS after they first banded together. It'd be like saying the original Star Trek sucked because Shatner directed ST V.

Leaving that aside, the Avengers have always been a bit problematic. The FF is a family. The X-Men are a school. The Avengers... hang out together because they always have. That may be a good thing, however, because the Avengers lineup is the most dynamic of all the Marvel teams.

The FF always seems to return to the default. The X-teams just shuffle around the usual suspects, with new ones occasionally added. But the Avengers... even the Big Three are by no means a sure thing.

And with this dynamism comes flexibility. You can have comedy duos, love triangles, and characters who simply can't STAND each other. Pretty much any story you want to tell can be told. And that's a tremendously powerful storytelling tool.

It seems to me that where the New Avengers are failing is not in the concept, but in the execution. But, as I haven't read the book in quite some time, I could easily be wrong.
 
 
doctorbeck
07:40 / 14.08.06
the best thing about the Avengers is that they all hang out in a mansion together in full costume, thor sat there in his cape and funny hat on the sofa while hercules rolls in drunk dressed like
a leather boy, doctor druid, again with massive cape standing looking pensive at something...lovely.
even as a young lad i was always deeply suspicious of them being the 'government sponsored super team', which is just not cool at any age, but then the failure, mentioned abve, to have any real a-listers involved made them less interesting to my impressionable young self

i suppose the new bendis avengers has gotten the a-listers in (spidey, wolvie, cap, daredevil) but then they are looking pretty incapable of facing off the cosmic threats that at least made them interesting (like in the Kovaks saga) back in the 70s
 
 
Chew On Fat
10:43 / 14.08.06
I've always loved the Avengers and the first Comic that I can really remember as having a profound influence on me was Avengers #165. For better or worse it might be the comic that made me the life-long comics Geek that I am. In it the Avengers are beaten into the ground by Count Nefaria who has attained Superman-level powers of strenth and invulnerability.

I've recently reread it, worrying in case it mightn't be all that good after all. It is still a solidly produced 70s superhero tale, albeit a slightly existential one where these mighty heroes face down a one-man apocalypse that they realise they haven't a chance of beating.

But I digress, and to address your questions about the point of the Avengers - As I got older I realised that the Avengers don't have that single idea like the Fantastic Four = a family or the wonderful premise of the Xmen where outsiders have to decide if they are going to fight for the society that spurns them or against it. That one idea is in Xmen #1 and 40 years of comics and 3 blockbuster movies flowed from it.

The Avengers don't have as specific a theme, but there is a brilliant post-modern idea behind it, which probably can only be done in comics, and that is the mixing of lots of genre archetypes that don't usually hang out together in one story. Thus you have a Mad Scientist - Henry Pym, a modern-day technologically enhanced Knight in Armor - Iron Man, a Norse God stepped straight out of ancient folklore, a flag-draped symbol of his country's ideals (and a second world war vet to boot), a robot struggling with his humanity or lack of it, a ...er...guy with a bow...etc etc I think this is the 'point' of the Avengers, mixing these elements and generating stories from their interaction.

Its true they aren't the most powerful heroes of their Earth, but then Marvel doesn't have a central triumverate like DC has. Then two of Marvels most popular properties have been loners for most of their history - the Hulk and Spiderman, and two of their other famous properties are teams themselves, like the Xmen and the Fantastic Four.

But without a simple theme to hang stories on, writers have depended on the 2nd string Avengers to have storylines and arcs that won't be interferring with independently produced comics like Iron Man and Thor. Thus the prevalence of Vision/Scarlet Witch and Hank Pym/Wasp story arcs in the comics. Grant Morrison has said that he got around this drawback in JLA by keeping Plot above characterisation and character-interaction in that comic.

But, as much as I love the Avengers, I have the feeling that its real attraction is to adolescent boys. The idea of belonging to this great circle of heroes who'll stand up for you no matter what, hanging out in a mansion with a butler and everything paid for by Tony Stark, having files and answers to everything at the tip of your fingers in those big rooms filled with consoles, wearing those great 4-colour costumes and having nobody laugh at you!

As for thier name, obviously Stan Lee thought the 'Avengers' was a great title, just like the producers of the TV show did! I've recently been catching up on my Avengers somewhat with the Panini reprints and read 'Lionheart of Albion' just a few days ago. In it Cap, at a graveside eulogy tries to justify the name. Basically he says that their job is not to prejudge and try to affect the world as it is, but instead to step in after wrongs have been committed and try to bring the wrong-doers to justice. This was very much the ethos of most superheroes for years but obviously, post-Authority this seems like a rather old fashioned idea in todays comics. As it happens someone butts in and says that they should be out there trying to ensure evil things don't happen in the first place. In fact its the woman he's eulogising who scoffs at his quaint notions. Yes, she's attending her own funeral in disguise. Aren't comics fantastic?
 
 
doctorbeck
07:16 / 22.08.06
just caught up on some recent captain america trades from the local library over the weekend, and first thought they handled 9/11 as well as a marvel comic was ever going to, and second was surprised to see that it was the evil US government that encased cap in ice to stop him interfering with hiroshima and nagasaki

is that still canon or did it get retconned straight away? thought it was a nice twist but also, despite being as unamerican as it gets, a bit of a shame as i liked cap representing a better golden age of america and this muddied the water quite a bit
 
 
Mario
16:35 / 23.08.06
1. It was never canon, but a fairly cliched "it's all a mind-controlled dream by a super-villain".

2. It was written by Chuck Austen. Canon flees at the sound of his name.
 
 
Shrug
21:31 / 07.09.06
Has The Human Torch, ever er... caused a forest fire/serious accidental damage/burns to people/etc before?
 
  

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