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The miserable thread

 
  

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Loomis
13:31 / 05.12.05
Ah shit. That sucks. Your beard clearly made them aware of their own whiskery inadequacies.
 
 
electric monk
18:06 / 05.12.05
Stuffy-headed and runny-nosed. Totally exhausted from recent trip up north. And just now, word has come down that I will only be retained by my current employer thru Christmas. I have no leads for a new job, save one that is very unlikely.

Two weeks to find gainful employment...

Fuck.
 
 
Ender
18:10 / 05.12.05
Oh god thank you for this thread, I am to fucked to write anything here right now, but thank god that I could if I wanted to.
 
 
electric monk
16:50 / 07.12.05
And now the "very unlikely" lead is "totally out of the question". Now I got worry.

Fuck fuck fuck fuck FUCK!
 
 
Nobody's girl
18:17 / 07.12.05
It's hard not to get paranoid about why people aren't visiting in the emotional pressure cooker of a house with a new baby. I've been trying really hard not to, but I feel dumped by all my friends because I have a baby. I'm the only person in my circle of friends with a kid and boy do I feel it right now. I'm trying to make friends with other parents in my area, but it takes time and I'm feeling pretty lonely in the meantime. Making friends isn't easy in this state either as nothing is less appealing than the scent of desperate lonely person.

Feeling pretty fed up. Meh.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:36 / 07.12.05
That's gotta suck, NG... I know people do this, having been guilty of it myself. Despite the fact that Tango-Mango and Lilly are two of my favourite people on the planet, when their daughter was born I wasn't really the friend I could have been. I fear babies. A few years down the line, I can now have conversations with her, and, being four, she's about on my level.

Another friend has just had a kid, and my "crap friend-ness" is kicking in again. I only hope he'll be as forgiving as they were.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
18:48 / 07.12.05
NG and I are in the same boat, although my feelings range more towards anger than misery - although there's misery, certainly. We've got no friends at the moment, all because they're either scared of the baby or what it represents, so I have to ask: What is it Stoatie? Is it the spectre of adult responsibility? I'm inclined towards that theory, but if wrong, please disabuse me of that notion.

However to go from being visited by friends almost every day of the week to seeing one of them maybe once or twice in a month is not easy. It's an effort not to say something here I'll later regret, because our friends are lovely people - it just seems that they can't cope with us now, and we're dealing with the isolation that results while they're out socializing with each other, and not us.

Right, enough self-pity for now.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
18:52 / 07.12.05
Oh, and Ariadne, Loomis and Cube (if you read this)...

None of this is aimed at you! We still see you about as often as before, maybe a bit less (well, Cube a lot less but not because of the baby) so don't feel like this is aimed at you in any way, alright?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:04 / 07.12.05
What is it Stoatie? Is it the spectre of adult responsibility? I'm inclined towards that theory, but if wrong, please disabuse me of that notion.

I think, in my case, that I'm just scared of babies. It's not so much the responsibility thing, I think, as the fact that I see them as being so fragile... I don't feel comfortable around things (and I'm using the word "things" to cover all sorts of stuff- I don't mean to imply that I don't think babies are human or anything like that) that are so delicate. I tense up if I go past glass stuff in shops. And that's just stuff.

Strangely, responsibility's something I don't handle too badly. I try to avoid it, but when I can't, I cope alright.
 
 
Loomis
19:05 / 07.12.05
I guess if you can't hassle us then we're not your real friends huh ...? (insert smiley)

We would defo like to see you guys soon anyway, baby or not. Don't suppose there's any chance of making it to the Glasgow barbmeet on Sat? Otherwise you'll have to throw another karaoke night.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
19:51 / 07.12.05
I see them as being so fragile

I can understand that, seriously, but once the soft spot is gone and they can sit up on their own (6 months-ish) then I don't see it so much. I mean, having to support the neck of a newborn? Creepy. But now Amaya, at 4.5 months, happily sits on laps and knees with minimal support, and gazes around happily, so I understand that less.

If a friend of your had an immune system disease would you drop out? Of course not! But they're fragile, as well...

I do understand the concern, just think that overcoming it is quite important if feeling aren't to be slightly hurt.

Don't suppose there's any chance of making it to the Glasgow barbmeet on Sat?

Not really, no. Amaya's bedtime is 9PM (holy fuck we actually have her sleeping to a schedule! Hurrah!) and we'd have to be back in Edinburgh by before then... so not a chance, really.

Also, my Mom and Brother are arriving - in Glasgow, actually - at 7AM on Sunday. Actually, Cube is being a sweetie and driving me to pick them up.

Actually, Cube at 6AM will be hilarious, I bet.
 
 
electric monk
20:10 / 07.12.05
Tom - Just wanted to throw in that, IME, childless friends can be overcome by the change (real or perceived) in friends with children. You and NG chose to make this change, your friends had this change thrust upon them. The relationship has to shift as a result. Some have a hard time with that and may avoid the situation altogether. It sucks, and there's not much you can do about it except letting it be known that you still want, and are able, to spend time with people your own age and have conversations that aren't punctuated by razzberries on the belly. Hope it turns around for ya.

(Nice to see, BTW, that Amaya's doing well and is sleeping on a schedule. I remember reading that you and NG were having a bit of a struggle with getting her to sleep a while back.)
 
 
Mistoffelees
20:31 / 07.12.05
I suggest we have a new thread for the babies (are they too fragile?, is there a reason to be afraid of/for them?, etc.).

It´s a topic worthy of its own thread, and any people who are interested about discussing it won´t find it here, where people are (for good reasons) miserable.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
23:09 / 07.12.05
Start a thread if you want, but we have friends that lurk here, and would like to avoid hurting feelings - one reason we posted here instead of starting a new thread about parenthood and alienation.

You and NG chose to make this change, your friends had this change thrust upon them.

People that feel like that should be soundly bludgeoned. They had almost as long to get used to the idea of us as parents as we did, and we have to deal with the anxiety, stress, lack of sleep, inability to go out and do as much as before, etc. so feeling sorry for yourself because your friends have a baby is really not going to get you anywhere. I mean, we make ourselves available for socialization often - they just never call or attempt to come see us.

But I don't think that's the case with our friends, frankly. I don't know what the case is, but I'd be surprised if it's that.

Also, our friends are rarely around before 9PM, meaning that even when they do come over, Amaya is hardly sucking in all the attention, y'know? She's sleeping.
 
 
Ganesh
23:54 / 07.12.05
Without (I hope) derailing this thread too much, TTT, I do feel for you and NG - but I can also empathise with your friends. A few years back, it seemed like suddenly a hidden switch had been tripped, and loads of our friends and relatives started having babies. And we started seeing less of them.

Why? In some cases, I think it started with the pregnancies themselves. People who previously liked going out and drinking a lot began entertaining at home, and restricting themselves to the odd miserly glass of wine. Busy, smoke-filled pubs and packed clubs were out. The social arena contracted, and conversation increasingly flowed around pregnancy, scans, due dates, etc., etc. It's perhaps unsurprising that some friendships began to drift slightly around this time.

With the arrival of the sprogs themselves, I definitely began experiencing the same 'fragility' stuff that Stoatie's articulated. I've always felt clumsy and awkward with babies, but one gets squeezed between that anxiety ("don'tdropitdon'tdropit") and the expectation that one will want to hold the baby. There's also, I think, a pressure to be interested in the baby; even if one would rather not be involved, one fears offending the parents. And, naturally, every parent thinks their offspring is the most beautiful, talented, fascinating creature EVAR - so one has to make the right noises.

Those are my reasons for sometimes feeling uncomfortable around babies. I've no idea whether your friends feel the same. It may be that, if you're feeling stressed, tired and angry around them, they've been picking up on this and avoiding you more...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
03:25 / 08.12.05
I do understand the concern, just think that overcoming it is quite important if feeling aren't to be slightly hurt.

Oh, I wasn't saying my attitude was the right one... in fact, I'm fairly sure it isn't.
As usual, though, Ganesh has put everything much better than me, so just read his post again but imagine it in a different voice.
 
 
Ariadne
06:42 / 08.12.05
I've been thinking about this since last night.

Like Ganesh, I've had a lot of friends become parents over the past 10 years and it often feels like I lose those friends the minute they become pregnant, and especially once the baby's born. Their priorities change, and generally I feel we've nothing in common and.. yes, I avoid seeing them. I find babies and children dull and tiresome - and the things I like doing, going to pubs etc, become difficult for their parents.

BUT, before you throw things at the screen, your posts here have made me take a step back and see just how that must feel from the other side. I'm sure you don't feel that you've changed at all, and so it hurts horribly that people avoid you.

I really don't know the answer - other than, perhaps, making specific invitations to people. It's easy to just 'forget' to call you ("oh, they'll be busy ... and I never know when it's bath time or when I'll wake the baby") but if you invite people round on Friday night, maybe there's more chance they'll come? and then see that really, you're still you?

And again as Ganesh has said, maybe your anger at them is showing - most people will react by running away rather than trying to understand and see why you're pissed off.

(In this specific instance, I'd like to stress, that I/we DON'T find you changed and we should see you more often!)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:42 / 08.12.05
If a friend of your had an immune system disease would you drop out? Of course not!

Dude, totally. Come on. One of the best things about personal tragedy is the bit eight months later when you meet somebody who has been blanking you in the pub and have to deal with that person, pissed, making it all about them. Think of all the time for recrimination you'll have when the kid leaves for college.
 
 
Mistoffelees
08:13 / 08.12.05
Friends of mine had a baby 2,5 years ago, and I´ve been visiting them regurlarly. Although we often talk about the child, there´s other things we talk about as well, and even when he was very small, I never saw that child as fragile. He´s pretty tough with lots of energy. His enormous amount of energy is amazing. When he was not yet able to walk, for example, he used his arms for moving about very fast, and pulled himself up on chairs and tables!

And if you don´t want to hold the baby, that shouldn´t be a problem. And if you´re really afraid, you might drop it, sit on the floor, with legs crossed and hold it then.

So don´t worry and just visit your friends more often. You´re visiting for socializing and not to change the diapers.
 
 
Ganesh
08:53 / 08.12.05
It's great that you don't feel at all uncomfortable, self-conscious or socially limited around your friends' baby, Mistoffeles, but others do - and it's not simply a case of holding the thing the wrong way.
 
 
Saveloy
09:00 / 08.12.05
My pal Sue was great when our son was born. She was completely honest and made it plain that she hated babies and would on no account touch one or say nice things about it if she didn't actually mean them, regardless of who it belonged to. Which all seemed fair enough to us, and meant that she could visit safe in the knowledge that she wouldn't have to perform. It also allowed us to be equally honest and warn her that we *would* bore the crap out of her by talking about him, since our life would consist of little else.

What actually happened was we would get our bit out of the way and then spend the rest of the evening pumping her for news of the outside. She was our connection to the exciting world of pubs and fights in kebab shops etc.
 
 
Nobody's girl
10:12 / 08.12.05
I understand the reservations non-parents feel about hanging out with parents- I wasn't always a parent! I try to keep the gushing proud parent conversation to a minimum with people I feel would be bored by it, though I have no idea how sucessful I am as no-one will tell you if you're being obnoxious about it.

Y'know what else? I'm not actually that enchanted by babies either. I think kids get way more interesting when you can talk to them. I suppose this is in some way part of my problem. Amaya is a fantastic baby (gushing parent mode), as babies go, but I find babies pretty boring. This is where I differ with most parents, too. "Don't wish it away", they'll tell you. "They're only this age once", they'll warn, but I just don't dig the helpless stage. So I totally get it if people aren't facinated by her, I am ONLY because I'm her mum.

When you have a little one, you dont really have much option but to run around after their needs all the time. That doesn't mean you're not interested in the conversation the baby has interrupted 5 times in the last minute, but it does mean you have to attend to the baby before you can pay full attention to the conversation. I find it frustrating too!

I do understand the fragility of babies fear, but it's not like the first thing I do when I meet my friends is hand them the baby and leave the room! I'll offer them a cuddle, but I'm not actually that bothered whether or not other people want to hold her, I'm happy to do that myself, thanks! I only offer 'cos some people (belive it or not) are offended if you don't.

At the moment our ability to go out on a big night out is restricted, but with enough warning we can generally manage a few hours away. Individually we can go out a bit more than as a couple, again with a bit of warning. All it takes is a "We're off to the pub Friday, want to join us for a drink?" I will restrict myself to one glass, but trust me, I'm every bit as pissed on one drink as I was on three these days (pregnant abstention lowers tolerance).

I've no idea whether your friends feel the same. It may be that, if you're feeling stressed, tired and angry around them, they've been picking up on this and avoiding you more...

This does sound likely, but it's so hard not to feel hurt, and swallowing your feelings doesn't make it any easier.

I suppose the major problem we're encountering is that we're pretty young for parents and we're not joining an already present community in our circle of friends or even peer group, really.

What actually happened was we would get our bit out of the way and then spend the rest of the evening pumping her for news of the outside. She was our connection to the exciting world of pubs and fights in kebab shops etc.

That's what we need from friends, not polite interest and uncomfortable visits, she sounds like a good friend Saveloy.

I feel as though all I do on Barbelith is moan about parenthood, when actually I'm enjoying it, particularly since we've managed to get a bit more sleep. The isolation is really the main difficulty I struggle with now. I know it will pass, but I just needed to moan about it a bit.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:50 / 08.12.05
Have you been going to a baby group? This sounds like I'm trying to segregate you but basically I think it would give you a chance to moan about your friends and their fast feet to people who have had the same experience. There's bound to be a few other people of the same age who have just had babies. The simple truth is that people are quite selfish about their time and just don't want to focus on a baby in the way that a parent does unless they are already a parent and when you're in a house with a baby that's what the space is always intent on. Baby groups though provide a good communal experience and I think that a lot of women hang onto friends they made when their children were very small because they grow through the experience.

What I'm really saying is this is a chance to make some new friends and if you keep in touch with the others they'll probably come back around when your child is about two.
 
 
Nobody's girl
11:32 / 08.12.05
Yes Nina, I have been going to as many baby groups as possible. As I said, making friends takes time and new friends are just no substitute for established friendships. Plus, I don't actually WANT to talk about the baby all the time! This is a common misconception amongst the childless. Motherhood is only one aspect of my life and I don't think it's healthy for me to make my baby the centre of my universe.

When she's two, huh? Honestly, if my friends aren't interested in hanging out with me until my baby stops being such a terrible inconvenience to them I think my hurt and resentment would ruin the relationship irreparably. After all, if I stopped being friend with someone because I found their difficulties in life rather tiresome I would consider myself a pretty poor friend, why is it different for my circumstances?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:55 / 08.12.05
Um, because you and Tom Tit chose to have a baby?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:12 / 08.12.05
Oh wait, Tom Tit thinks because they've had plenty of time to get used to the idea, any of your friends who think it was any less their decision "should be soundly bludgeoned".

Well.

With an attitude like that, frankly you're lucky any of them visit at all!
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:21 / 08.12.05
Well people find reacting to babies difficult when they have no experience of them... as much as you try to be about other things your kid is always going to be the thing that gets priority attention and hell, there's no criticism meant here. You haven't changed but the way you attend to things probably has? It's just difficult for people to readjust the way they relate to your focus and I imagine that will take a couple of years. I get the impression that you feel people are doing you a disservice but keep in contact and eventually they'll get used to the change.

It's not so much talking about babies all the time that I meant, it's shared experience of what happens with everyone else around you that you probably need to share with people who get it. Other parents will get that, the rest of us can only try to.
 
 
Smoothly
12:27 / 08.12.05
It’s a shame that this discussion is hidden here, and although I understand the reasons I also wonder whether you shouldn’t be more open with your friends about how this is making you feel.
It’s likely that your friends’ reasons for getting in touch with you less are quite complex. For instance, I’ve known friends to resolutely back away from their social circle when they become pregnant or had children and have made it clear that they were embarking on a new stage in their lives. That can be quite disorienting for friends and they can themselves feel alienated by the parent’s change of priorities. Childless people can feel quite awkward when their peers make these kinds of decisions, and might not want to confront the reality of how parenthood necessarily changes your relationship, and marks a watershed in their own lives. I remember a similar dynamic shift when my friends started pairing off in earnest. And those in couples would resent the fact that the remaining singletons would treat them differently, while the singletons felt bitter that their coupled friends didn’t want to do the same things any more. These choices just divide people and it can be painful to confront that. Your friends might be avoiding this schism between the ways your lives are developing, rather than avoiding you as people.
Have you asked them how they feel? It might be troubling them too.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:27 / 08.12.05
That's a bit brusque, but...

NG, do you mean you've never lost touch with somebody, or found yourself interacting with them less, because their circumstances have changed? You know, they moved away or got a new job or embraced Christ. Having a baby is presumably a bit like that - it will change the system by which some of your friends interact with you. That can be dealt with in various different ways, but, for example, did the people who never call now actually call then, or did you just meet them in the pub?
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
12:39 / 08.12.05
Oh wait, Tom Tit thinks because they've had plenty of time to get used to the idea, any of your friends who think it was any less their decision "should be soundly bludgeoned".

Well.

With an attitude like that, frankly you're lucky any of them visit at all!


That's incredibly helpful, Petey. If you have no practical advice to offer, would you mind taking your petulant cock-ish self to another thread?
 
 
Cat Chant
12:51 / 08.12.05
Not about babies.

Have big scary teaching in just over an hour. Very scared and exhausted. Hair all wrong. Having week of DOOOM. No respite after big scary teaching as big scary PhD upgrade interview tomorrow, for which I was planning to do stacks of reading, but now will have to bluff it. Then marking over the weekend. No respite EVER.
 
 
Nobody's girl
13:01 / 08.12.05
Weapons- TTT is reacting to his hurt feelings with anger, please try to be understanding of that, honestly I very much doubt he sincerely wishes anybody to be soundly bludgeoned and was expressing upset. Also, try and understand that having a baby is not always (or even usually) as clear cut as being a well planned and executed choice, if you see what I mean. We are all, alas, fallible.

I am trying to be understanding of peoples difficulties adjusting, but I suppose what TTT said here comes into this- we're adjusting to a fuck of a lot more and could do with some support. Just when we need it the most everyone freaks out and backs off 'cos THEY can't cope. It seems rather backward, that's all.

I've tried to talk about it and be honest with them, but I'm having a hard time not getting overwrought about it so tend not to go on about how I feel. Plus, I don't want to guilt trip people into being friendly, that feels really sad and icky.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:11 / 08.12.05
I tend not to see friends with kids as much as I could (or probably should) simply because I'm always worried I could be intruding on their family time. Even when I'm invited round I'm not sure if they're doing it because they feel they have to.

Lack of effective communication, I suppose.
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
13:14 / 08.12.05
I have every sympathy with you, NG and TT. It doesn't matter how much you plan and prepare for the arrival of a baby, no-one anticipates just how much your life will be turned upside down once it's born. It's a big adjustment for the people who knew you pre-parenthood, but it's the parents who have to adjust the most, and it's easy for the people who don't have to deal with no sleep and the actual parenting bit to underestimate just how hard it can be.

If I were you, I wouldn't be worried about unburdening yourself on your friends about what a hard time you're having. You need to be honest about you needing their support - if they're true friends, then they'll find a way to be there for you, even if it may not be as regularly as it was before.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:21 / 08.12.05
Friends are so difficult I think because it's so important to have them but you're so aware that they're different people who don't necessarily need you so much. I think you should let yourself become a little overwrought. Having a baby is a big thing and if you need people, let them see your need and some of them will make an effort to be around more.
 
  

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