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A joke to cheer everyone up. Mayhap, this could turn into a prolonged and merry joke thread...

  
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:28 / 13.02.07
This thread is starting to make me want to chuck things. Starting with my last meal and ending with this laptop.

Enamon: Repeating the same sentence a lot of times will not make you any righter. Now that you've ticked the "what would X think if ze could see us now?" box you can cut to the "leaving in a huff" part and sod off back to Livejournal.

Tom: what it comes right down to is that a joke like the two black eyes sort of relies on an unspoken agreement that while you'd never do these kinds of things in some ways commonly understood between men it might be a light-hearted fantasy solution to the problem of incessantly talking women.

Incessantly talking women? Is this a big problem in men's lives then? Lucky there's all these nice guys around who would only ever joke or fantasise about solving that problem with violence. Guess I'd better learn to shut my fucking pie-hole in case I push the wrong fella too far, eh?

Still, good that the men around here feel a desire to stand up for women. Having those big strong men around to protect us poor weak females certainly makes me feel a lot happier. In my fantasy world, of course, there are men who are simply offended by sexist humor off their own bats, so to speak, without having to be "standing up for" anyone in particular, but you take what you can get.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:44 / 13.02.07
The refusal to accept the Barbelith joke policy stems from the fact that I do not deem myself a misogynistic sexist bastard just because I see some comedic value in said jokes. I disagree with the notion of the mere action of posting the joke to this board negates this premise and turns me into everything some "mods" here have hit me with.

The trouble, John, is that just because you aren't sexist (or, at least, don't consider yourself to be) it doesn't mean that your jokes weren't. I would like to think that I'm not racist but that doesn't mean that I would feel free or comfortable to post racist jokes.

My "bandwidth" of acceptable comedic values are obviously vastly different to what Barbelith expects (and ruthlessly demands) from it's "contributors". Having said that there are some contributors who have shown they have an axe to grind with me which is fine, such is life, but the spitefulness shown by some towards myself for posting some stupid jokes is very bewildering.

Well if it makes you feel any better JLS my responses are not motivated by spite. I barely know you as a poster.

Quite some time ago (during and after the Shadowsax incident I believe) there was a lot of comment that the site isn't as quick to rise to sexist posts as it would be to racist or homophobic posts, and a view (that I agree with) was suggested that perhaps we should be. Even a stupid joke has the capacity to harm when people don't know you.

Like I said earlier, you've been on this site long enough to know what's likely to play well and what's likely to fall flat. Those jokes could easily have been modified so as to remove the sexist content which is part of the problem with just cut-and-pasting jokes across without consideration.

Does my ability to see the funny side of the odd blonde joke head me for the airlock? Seems like it's one strike and your out here? Or have I had strikes in the past that some remember and keep for occasions such as this?

As far as I know the banning policy has no "3 strikes" policy. It is, I imagine, possible to get banned for a single post if the poster stubbornly refuses to apologise or acknowledge why others found the post offensive. In my view what would make you airlock-worthy would be a complete failure to accept any responsibility for the potential harm your jokes may do to other posters (who, after all, have as much right not to be offended as you do).

Your initial reply to criticism seemed to be taking that path. Your apology, whilst being utterly back-handed, at least shows some desire to hammer this out.

Enamon,

A joke only about black people from South Africa is still racist. A joke only about blonde women is still sexist.

That's pretty much all I have to say to you.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:20 / 13.02.07
Oh, and:

FUCK OFF, LIONHEART.

Damn, I've wanted to do that for years.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:37 / 13.02.07
It is, I imagine, possible to get banned for a single post if the poster stubbornly refuses to apologise or acknowledge why others found the post offensive.

Certainly. When a member changed his name to "sensitive rapist", he was told by some members that they were not happy with this. He said that he would do so if they were an overwhelming response. One overwhelming response later, he, clearly not having expected this, got very cross about how inflexible people's reality tunnels were, and was banned.

I wouldn't put JLS' actions in this thread in that ballpark, but there is certainly no formal "three strikes and..." ruling on Barbelith, or at least if there is it is also acknowledged that you can use up all three strikes in the same thread and very quickly.
 
 
Quantum
09:27 / 13.02.07
Can the three strikes be runny, bum and gunge? That way, it'll be easier to hit it in one post. I'm looking at you, Lionheart.
 
 
Lionheart
09:48 / 13.02.07
Huh? What's wrong with my joke?
 
 
Papess
10:00 / 13.02.07
How do you fit six million Jews into a Volkswagon?

4 at a time.

Six million? There is a provocative number. Now, try replacing "volkswagon" (aren't these German made?) with "oven", and there you have the thinly veiled racism.

Or is it just me reading stuff into that joke that really isn't there? Anyway, bad timing at the very least, Lionheart.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:07 / 13.02.07
Let me check my Lionheart-to-English phrasebook there.

Please notice me! Please talk to me! Look! I'm controversial! I'm daring! I'm the daringest man on the Internet! Define me! React to me! In the absence of positive affirmation, I'll take whatever I can get!

Dullsville, Lionheart. You were funnier when you were getting cross about people not reading your short stories the right way in the Creation. That was amusing. This is just trolling.
 
 
Lionheart
10:13 / 13.02.07
Huh? None of you know the original joke that I'm making fun of?
 
 
Lionheart
10:17 / 13.02.07
Also:

Dullsville, Lionheart. You were funnier when you were getting cross about people not reading your short stories the right way in the Creation. That was amusing. This is just trolling.

The only time that's happened when the criticism of the story was "nothing is happening!" and my answer was that the whole point of the story was that nothing exciting is supposed to happen. But, uhm, yeah.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:19 / 13.02.07
"Six million jews" isn't "some random number of a random sample of the population," it's a figure that's been selected specifically for the emotive response it generates. The fact that this supposed joke tails off with an insipid punchline doesn't make it any nicer or more acceptable, it just makes it weak. So what's wrong with your joke is this: it's a weak, unfunny, oh-ho-it's-gonna-be-racist!-oops-no-it's-just-lame piece of wit free pap which you only posted to get on everyone's nerves. You're angling for an offended response purely so you can then hop up and down pointing gleefully at your flaccid punchline and mocking those who have responded for their blatant oversensitivity.

Don't you and Enamon have an elsewhere to be? Did the DischordiansStuckIn1989.com forum close down? Wasn't Modzy going to start his own messageboard at one point? Isn't there some friendslocked Lj where you and your little chums can fnord away to your hearts' content, where men are real men and jokes about chicks with blonde hair and black eyes draw only backslapping and applause?
 
 
Lionheart
10:21 / 13.02.07
Wow, do you guys not know the joke that I'm making fun of?
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:24 / 13.02.07
Wow, do you guys not know the joke that I'm making fun of?

Then why not explain it to us then? As it wasn't funny to start with it won't ruin it.

It was pretty stupid to drop it into this thread at this point considering the nature of the discussion.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:25 / 13.02.07
Yes, you irritant, of course we know the joke. Everyone knows that "joke." You are not challenging us. You are not clever, not special, not a beautiful and unique snowflake. Go. Away.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:25 / 13.02.07
None of us care to speculate, Lionheart, because it would only drive your hunger for attention to greater heights to have it acknowledged. We know what you are doing: demonstrating how FNORD you are and how PC GONE MAD Barbelith is using the Holocaust as a bit of cheap leverage. That's all we need to know.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
10:26 / 13.02.07
Am I too late to the party to register my offence at dumb blonde jokes and my ample qualifications for such?

  
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:28 / 13.02.07
Ev. Sci., meet Lionheart. Lionheart is Enamon's brother, I believe, or if not actual brother then long-term chum. He is here to defend his literal or metaphorical sibling by, it appears, telling even less funny jokes than Enamon's.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:29 / 13.02.07
Ooops, X-posting like mad today.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
10:30 / 13.02.07
I just looked up the joke and it's obvious you were doing exactly what Mordant Carnival just said; the lead-in is a tease ~ "ooh, I'm going to be shocking" ~ and then the fuse leads to a damb squib rather than an explosive taboo.

So I'd say she explained it pretty well, and all your posts are in fact doing just what Haus suggested ~ you may as well simply write "KEEP LOOKING AT ME! NO, NO, KEEP LOOKING AT ME!"
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:35 / 13.02.07
Ev. Sci., meet Lionheart. Lionheart is Enamon's brother,

Ahh, well in that case.

FUCK OFF LIONHEART!
 
 
Quantum
10:50 / 13.02.07
Wow, do you guys not know the joke that I'm making fun of?
 
 
Quantum
10:52 / 13.02.07
Seriously, do you guys not know the joke that I'm making fun of?
 
 
Quantum
10:52 / 13.02.07
Do you guys and girls not know the joke that I'm making fun of?
 
 
Tom Coates
10:53 / 13.02.07
To Flyboy - well they're standing up for what they believe in, and one of the reasons they stand up for general cases is because they know women. It's no coincidence I suspect that many people who have no experience of gay people don't stand up for gay rights.

To Tann - a joke is presumably 'edgy' if there is a good chance it could cross the line between funny and offensive, and I would say that this kind of traditional humour has now started to occupy that territory. I don't mean that it's avante garde, just that it's transgressive. The other comment you make about commonly held assumptions doesn't work on Barbelith precisely because it's very difficult to know people terribly well and because there are so many people here. If I made a gay joke, I'm sure the vast majority of people would treat it differently since I'm well known to be gay.

To Enamon - while I took issue with Flyboy above, I think it is fair to say, as he said, that a person can get angry about what they consider sexism or racism or homophobia without actually being a woman, of an ethnic minority or gay.

I also think it's worth considering that perhaps dumb blonde jokes fit into a range of stereotypes about women - mother / virgin / whore or whatever - which could still be aggravating to people. I mean, you could say—to take an extreme example for a moment—that jokes about effeminate gay men aren't offensive to gay men because it's understood that there are non-effeminate gay men. I don't really buy that. Her sex is clearly not incidental to the joke.

To Disco: I'm not saying that it's okay to say sexist jokes based on a common understanding that women are inferior, I'm simply saying that a joke will fall flat and piss people off if it's not based on a common understanding. Bluntly I'm saying that you can't expect to wander into an environment and tell a joke that people in that space are going to find objectionable and then protest that no one has a sense of humour. If you go out on a limb and your limb gets chopped off, then that's the price you pay. I'd absolutely not say that white people have a right to make jokes about black people. I would absolutely say that if a bunch of racist white people got together and told jokes about black people then they'd be much less likely to offend each other.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
10:55 / 13.02.07
Is it only the blonde girls here who don't know the joke I was making fun of? LOL no offence ladies I'm a big lover of blondes (and your brunette, redhead friends! the more the merrier... my PM box is always open ... I'm 24, just over 6 foot, cheeky eyes and grin, writer, artist, "agent provocotuer", if you want to stir things up!)
 
 
Tom Coates
10:58 / 13.02.07
To Mordant re: "Incessantly talking women? Is this a big problem in men's lives then? Lucky there's all these nice guys around who would only ever joke or fantasise about solving that problem with violence. Guess I'd better learn to shut my fucking pie-hole in case I push the wrong fella too far, eh?" I'm not celebrating these people, I'm describing them. I'm saying that if a group of men with a commonly held position about women (as above) told the dumb blonde jokes, then they wouldn't get offended. On Barbelith they'd consider those commonly held assumptions wrong and dangerous and would want to fight against them.

I also don't buy this 'stand up for' problem. Clearly there's an unfortunate metaphor that can be found in there of weak emotional women and strident defender men, but that wasn't my intention. I consider anyone who fights for the rights of types of people that they don't belong to to be standing up for them, and I don't see the problem there.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:00 / 13.02.07
Ah - so, our comparable example is a group of misogynists telling jokes about giving women black eyes, after they have created and established a safe space for misogyny?

That does certainly make a lot more sense, both generally and in the specific context of this thread. Thanks for the clarification.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:25 / 13.02.07
Ok Tom, thanks for stopping by and clarifying that but it really wasn't clear from your initial post.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
11:36 / 13.02.07
I think the dynamic with "blonde" jokes is more complex than with racist jokes ~ for instance, "Irish people are stupid" jokes, or "Jewish people are stingy" jokes, or "black people are criminals" jokes.

I don't know for sure but I don't believe those latter stereotypes are perpetuated so much by people within the target community ~ whereas it's not at all unknown for (some) women to announce that they're having a blonde day, or blonde moment, or jokingly criticise their own temporary clumsiness or doziness with "I'm so blonde".

There are a number of disclaimers here ~ that of course women can perpetuate a stereotype, and that doesn't mean it isn't sexist ~ that a stereotype has a different power dynamic if it's circulated "inside" a community, rather than outside ~ and that it's still always blonde women, rather than blond men, who are subject to this supposed dizziness.

I'm not suggesting it isn't a sexist stereotype ~ more to the point, for me, it's just so meaningless and divorced from reality that it's a non-starter as a joke (you might as well suggest everyone knows brunettes are tight with money ~ that seems no less ridiculous to me).

But the "blonde = dizzy" concept, however empty of any truth, does perhaps have a slightly different currency when circulated amongst women.
 
 
alas
12:59 / 13.02.07
I disagree--Many kinds of people make self-deprecating jokes in a variety of situations: amongst in-group members as a way of bonding, but also in 'mixed company.' I see this often as a way of putting others at ease, by acknowledging that the stereotype exists as a kind of elephant in the room. (Certainly many Jewish and black stand up comedians take advantage of this comic potential all the time).

I think it's about as common across all "minority" populations to do this kind of thing. It can have a conservative effect, but it has the potential to be at once pre-emptive and assertive and conciliatory, and can be very powerful in face-to-face exchanges. It's almost impossible to achieve in virtual, text-based exchanges, however, for obvious reasons.

So, blonde jokes here? Not funny.
 
 
Sniv
13:04 / 13.02.07
This thread is the funniest thing on the board right now. It took me about an hour and a half to read all the posts since the mess started, it was well worth it, many chuckles were had. Thanks to our players, for your commitment to the cause and and your perseverence. Thanks also to your employers, for letting you join in this great show instead of working, or going to bed.

Barbelith is filmed before a live studio audience.
Viacom.
 
 
Tom Coates
13:11 / 13.02.07
To Haus - yes, I'm saying that there might be contexts where that kind of joke would be considered funny by the people assembled, because of some low-level assumptions and stereotypes that they all shared about women. It would probably be 'funnier' in situations where the men felt that it was a viewpoint that normally they couldn't share but felt a certain sympathy for. And as soon as presented to a group of people who didn't share those assumptions it would be either not funny or potentially offensive.

I'm trying to present a different way of dealing with this kind of problem on barbelith, I suppose, and probably as a result of the rise of 'offensiveness' in the wider world being a reason to stop people saying things by law.

I'm reaching towards something and I'm not there yet but it's something like this. That we explain to people that—while individually we may disagree with their sense of humour and would argue against the assumptions it represents—we have no issue with them exercising their ability to make these comments except that it's rude and anti-social, and that we expect a certain amount of politeness from people on the board. Even if you believe that stuff, this is not the place to make jokes like that because it is likely to make people angry and/or lower their estimation of you.

We are none of us at home with a bunch of close friends, we're in a social situation with a mix of friends and strangers who do not all believe the same things. Opening up these issues carefully and in a non-frivolous manner is one thing, running with them as jokes is likely to piss some people off and you'll have to live with the repercussions of that.

I wonder if it should be that no one on the board would stand up and defend someone on freedom of speech grounds for making an off-colour joke. But then nor would they ban you for it. You'd just be considered rude, and systematic long-term rudeness for the sake of causing fights would be considered troll behaviour and eventually banned. Obviously, the more general harrassment concept would apply - if someone is consistently rude about a type of person then it is considered to be a form of harrassment of all the people who could be on the board of that type, and eventually this will result in expulsion too.

This is clearly not one of those times - we're having a heated debate about risqué jokes (or at least so it seems to me at the moment). I've had the same argument with the b3ta crew a bunch of times. It hasn't resulted in us not being friends.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:15 / 13.02.07
I think it's about as common across all "minority" populations to do this kind of thing. It can have a conservative effect, but it has the potential to be at once pre-emptive and assertive and conciliatory, and can be very powerful in face-to-face exchanges. It's almost impossible to achieve in virtual, text-based exchanges, however, for obvious reasons.

So, blonde jokes here? Not funny.

I agree, I don't seem to find blonde jokes funny in any context, whoever comes out with them; but your idea about most "minority" communities using self-deprecating stereotypes is food for thought.
 
 
illmatic
13:15 / 13.02.07
Well, please avoid telling us why you find it funny, John. I'm sure it won't be very interesting.

I just had the misfortune to glance through a copy of The Sun (in the loo, honest) and was struck with the way that the word "blondes" was used as a descriptor. It almost seems a way of adding some kind of sexual charge to the incidents described, in a way that doesn't happen for men. I think the headline that caught my eye the most was something like 3-In--A-Car Romp kills Blonde: Two quizzed after sex game strangle

Blonde="more sexually attractive" seems to exist in tandem with the "dumb blonde" idea.
 
 
Sniv
13:22 / 13.02.07
Well, please avoid telling us why you find it funny, John.

Don't worry, I won't, it's just for the obvious reasons.

I'm sure it won't be very interesting.

Now, that's not very nice is it? Why the hostility Eggy?
 
  

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