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A joke to cheer everyone up. Mayhap, this could turn into a prolonged and merry joke thread...

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STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

19:37 / 13.02.07

The crossover between Scouser jokes (and believe it or not, I was actually born in Toxteth, so in certain company I think I can tell them) and the "n*****" jokes that I heard at school in the 70s and 80s is, well... pretty much absolute.

They're the same jokes. All that differs is the group ridiculed. Doesn't excuse or explain anything... except maybe why all the fucking awful jokes now are still as rubbish as they were thirty years ago.

19:43 / 13.02.07

Oh! A shit-zu!

i just now got that....

sorry

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

19:56 / 13.02.07

What I find interesting about all of this is that, at their heart, these types of jokes are often funny jokes about stupid people. Stupid people doing and saying stupid things is almost always funny (Darwin Awards, for example).

The strangest part to me is that people telling these jokes don't seem to realize they are being racist/sexist in any way (and not just on Barbelith). Because the jokes don't change, only the term used to describe the Stupid Person, it becomes a really lazy way for people to tell jokes.

"Ok, I know I am funny, and I have all these great jokes, but Sam is black and Neil is a Jew, so I need to makes these jokes about Germans, that should do the trick"

This sort of casual target hopping is, I think, the root of the trouble. If someone can go for months telling jokes making a safe target the Stupid Person (nobody gets mad about American jokes, for example) it isn't much of a step to swap the butt of a joke to something that the current audience will find highly offensive.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:57 / 13.02.07

Yeah. Same mechanism at work: we've grasped that it's not okay to tell n-word jokes, but haven't quite got the not pigeon-holing every single inhabitant of a particular geograpical area as feckless, mercenary and innately criminal. X-ref "pikey", "chav" etc. humour, which takes us into the rich jokefields of poverty as an indicator of criminality and/or general social worth whilst once again introducing an element of ethnicity into the mix. (But that's okay, because we're allowed to laugh at gypsies.)

Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:58 / 13.02.07

I get increasingly cranky about American jokes. I mean, general American, not specifically Dubya or whoever.

ONLY NICE THINGS

19:59 / 13.02.07

Didn't the Ancient Greeks have jokes about "egg heads?"

Scholastikoi, yes - or at least, there are scholastikos gags kicking around in the Hellenistic era...

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

20:06 / 13.02.07

Yeah. Same mechanism at work: we've grasped that it's not okay to tell n-word jokes, but haven't quite got the not pigeon-holing every single inhabitant of a particular geograpical area as feckless, mercenary and innately criminal. X-ref "pikey", "chav" etc. humour, which takes us into the rich jokefields of poverty as an indicator of criminality and/or general social worth whilst once again introducing an element of ethnicity into the mix. (But that's okay, because we're allowed to laugh at gypsies.)

As I say, they're THE SAME FUCKING JOKES. The nouns change so as to target them at a different group each time.

For example- "What do you call a bus of misogynist internet trolls going over a cliff with one seat empty? A WASTE OF A SEAT".

Mon Oncle Ignatius

20:35 / 13.02.07

Can we please go back through this entire thread and swap blond(e)/duck/any other butt of cruel humour (hell, maybe even GWB) for "misogynist internet trolls" instead? I think it might possibly improve the jokes, just a teensy bit. It could even make them funny.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

20:40 / 13.02.07

"What do you say to a misogynist internet troll with two black eyes?"...

...yeah.

That works.

20:45 / 13.02.07

I prefer the one that starts Why are blonde jokes so short? and ends So men can remember them, but I kind of like watching that kind of fight.

Mon Oncle Ignatius

20:51 / 13.02.07

Couldn't that be "so misogynist internet trolls can remember them"? See, much funnier.

21:11 / 13.02.07

Anyway it is kind of interesting: people still want to tell the Irish (or Polish, as it might be) joke, but they've finally realised that telling Irish/Polish/etc jokes makes one a very visible wanker. Hence the need for another group, one it's okay to laugh at--in this instance, blonde ladies are deemed to be the required universally dimwitted group. I can imagine a prototype of this thread happening a decade or two back, with the Enamon of his day posting "But it's just an Irish/Polish/etc joke!" again and again and again, unable to comprehend why anyone could possibly get upset over something so obviously innocuous.

Alright, I take great offense to this since you pretty much just stated that I find ethnic/racist jokes funny and defensible. See, the Irish/Polish/Jewish/etc have actually suffered real discrimination. There's an actual history behind all this. Can you point to me to any famous event in history where a woman has been discriminated against simply because she was a blonde? I had to deal with a lot of name calling directed at me on this thread while I tried to be civil and backed up my arguments with reasoning and facts. Some who chose to debate me did the same but for some reason a select few always have to resort to personal insults. Nice, especially when you're trying to prove that something is offensive.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

21:17 / 13.02.07

No, you moron, I patently didn't equate being a blonde woman with any particular ethnicity or nationality. I simply pointed out that many of the jokes are virtually identical, with the ethnicity/nationality replaced with some othr group (in this instance, blonde ladies). If realising that you're telling recycled Irish/Polish etc jokes but with blonde ladies instead of Irish people makes you uncomfortable, you might want to have a little think about why. However I don't see that it's my problem.

21:17 / 13.02.07

And anyway, here's the best blond joke ever!

21:23 / 13.02.07

No, you moron, I patently didn't equate being a blonde woman with any particular ethnicity or nationality. I simply pointed out that many of the jokes are virtually identical, with the ethnicity/nationality replaced with some othr group (in this instance, blonde ladies). If realising that you're telling recycled Irish/Polish etc jokes but with blonde ladies instead of Irish people makes you uncomfortable, you might want to have a little think about why. However I don't see that it's my problem.

It doesn't make me uncomfortable. It proves that the humour lies in the joke and not the target. Heck, I can change "blonde" to "autonomous ham" and it'll still be funny. The humour lies in the joke. And "autonomous ham" is extra funny because it's ridiculous, sort of like why dumb blonde jokes are extra funny - because we know that hair color has no effect on one's intelligence.

Should I feel uncomfortable about the nursery rhyme "Eeny meeny miny moe, catch a tiger by the toe, if you catch him, let him go" because it was once used to disparage blacks? Hey, guess what, it wasn't "tiger" originally.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

21:25 / 13.02.07

Yes dear.

The thing about that, though, is that it's mocking the person who clicks on it (especially if they keep on clicking for a while before getting the joke). The humour is in the fact that the reader has gone after the oh so funny aren't-blondes-stupid gag, only to end up feeling a little foolish. It's... well, not hilarious, but mildly amusing.

21:28 / 13.02.07

Yeah, it's kinda like The Green Ox. You expect a joke and instead you get... nothing.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:29 / 13.02.07

Black people, not "blacks". Way to shoot yourself in the foot, chummy.

However, I note that your hilarious joke about women with black eyes did not specify hair colour, Enamon. Ergo, your question becomes:

Can you point to me to any famous event in history where a woman has been discriminated against?

To which the answer is "yes". Therefore, by extension, you are OK with racist jokes, as you are OK with misogynistic jokes. I don't think you've really thought this through, but then I don't think you are here to think it through - you are here because you want attention, which we probably should not be giving you. Unfortunately, as so often, we are trapped between ignoring the attention-seeking and allowing it to look as if Barbelith is a place where this sort of attention-seeking is permitted. It would be better to put you out of our misery, but banning is a complex process and it makes me sad to think of banning somebody with such a long association with Barbelith, even if they are currently rather pissing on the legacy.

21:30 / 13.02.07

And, I should add, that the people who are "mocked" are the ones who find the joke funny and thus spread it.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

21:33 / 13.02.07

I'm terribly sorry for my misapprehension. I assumed that since you claimed you "took great offence" at having the recycled nature of the jokes pointed out to you, you must be feeling uncomfortable. My bad. However, if you weren't made uncomfortable by my comment, which was largely a statement of fact, why were you greatly offended?

Also: No, I don't think that nursery-rhyme is comparable. It contained an offensive ethnic slur, yes, but outside of that it is largely a nonsense rhyme--it doesn't ask you to think anything in particular about tigers, or babies, or whoever gets their toe grabbed nowadays, except that if they protest such rough handling you should let them go. However, since the original rhyme contained an offensive slur I would generally avoid reciting it at all.

21:34 / 13.02.07

Black people, not "blacks". Way to shoot yourself in the foot, chummy.

However, I note that your hilarious joke about women with black eyes did not specify hair colour, Enamon. Ergo, your question becomes:

Can you point to me to any famous event in history where a woman has been discriminated against?

To which the answer is "yes". Therefore, by extension, you are OK with racist jokes, as you are OK with misogynistic jokes. I don't think you've really thought this through, but then I don't think you are here to think it through - you are here because you want attention, which we probably should not be giving you. Unfortunately, as so often, we are trapped between ignoring the attention-seeking and allowing it to look as if Barbelith is a place where this sort of attention-seeking is permitted. It would be better to put you out of our misery, but banning is a complex process and it makes me sad to think of banning somebody with such a long association with Barbelith, even if they are currently rather pissing on their legacy.

Way to change the topic. We're talking about dumb blonde jokes. Yes, women have and are discriminated against. Like I said before, I understand why people would be offended by it. I also said that I found it funny because it's so awful. It's a complete opposite of the dumb blonde joke. Please don't claim they're at all alike. And please answer my question: Can you point to me to any famous event in history where a woman has been discriminated against simply because she was a blonde?

Let me answer that for you: You can't.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:38 / 13.02.07

German occupation of Norway. You lose.

However, this is irrelevant. I did not change the subject - you did. You have tried to focus on blonde jokes because you can then beat your tedious "blonde, blonde, blonde" drum, in the hope of convincing us that the issue is not in fact women. Which it is. Which you demonstrated in your first attention-seeking post to this thread, involving as it did beating a woman. Not a blonde woman, but a woman.

Quod erant demonstranda, really.

21:38 / 13.02.07

I'm terribly sorry for my misapprehension. I assumed that since you claimed you "took great offence" at having the recycled nature of the jokes pointed out to you, you must be feeling uncomfortable. My bad. However, if you weren't made uncomfortable by my comment, which was largely a statement of fact, why were you greatly offended?

I was not made uncomfortable at all. If they're recycled I'm glad that at now they're not maliciously aimed at anyone. If someone says a joke about Jews, for example, chances are that person discriminates against Jews. If a person says a blonde joke chances are that person obviously does not think that hair color makes one stupid. There is a BIG difference.

And why was I offended? Because of this:

with the Enamon of his day posting "But it's just an Irish/Polish/etc joke!"

21:42 / 13.02.07

However, this is irrelevant. I did not change the subject - you did. You have tried to focus on blonde jokes because you can then beat your tedious "blonde, blonde, blonde" drum, in the hope of convincing us that the issue is not in fact women. Which it is. Which you demonstrated in your first attention-seeking post to this thread, involving as it did beating a woman. Not a blonde woman, but a woman.

Quod erant demonstranda, really.

No, like I stated previously I understand why the "two black eyes" joke is offensive. I stated that it's funny because it's shocking and god awful and I understand why that would be quite offensive. I have no issue with people having problems with that joke. I understand completely.

My problem is that people have been arguing for the past 6 or so pages about how dumb blonde jokes are evil and promote misogyny.

21:45 / 13.02.07

Oh and I say blacks, whites, blondes, brunettes, Asians, Europeans, Martians, Earthmen, etc. I automatically assume that they're people. I don't have to point that out.

...

Well... I'm not too sure about the Martians but the rest.

Some people take offense to "Blacks". Some people take offense to "Black people." Some people take offense to "African American". Until there is a set standard I shall use what I think is appropriate and what doesn't offend my friends (no matter what planet they're from).

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:46 / 13.02.07

If someone says a joke about Jews, for example, chances are that person discriminates against Jews. If a person says a blonde joke chances are that person obviously does not think that hair color makes one stupid.

Aren't Jews funny, though?.

We've been through the blonde thing over and over again. You don't see it as misogynist. Funnily enough, that is rather in your best interests. In part because it exonerates you and allows you to do what you want to do in the first place - just as you are about to tell us why when you tell jokes about Jews, it's fine - but also because it allows you to keep demanding attention.

21:55 / 13.02.07

It doesn't make me uncomfortable. It proves that the humour lies in the joke and not the target. Heck, I can change "blonde" to "autonomous ham" and it'll still be funny. The humour lies in the joke. And "autonomous ham" is extra funny because it's ridiculous, sort of like why dumb blonde jokes are extra funny - because we know that hair color has no effect on one's intelligence.

No. the humor does not lie in the joke, the humor for you lies in your mind as you believe that it is perfectly acceptable to use the noun "blonde" as the target, because you don't understand how this is offensive to women.

Is the joke still funny when you put an ethnic minority as the target?

If someone says a joke about Jews, for example, chances are that person discriminates against Jews. If a person says a blonde joke chances are that person obviously does not think that hair color makes one stupid. There is a BIG difference.

But to you the joke is still funny right? funny because it's so awful.

21:56 / 13.02.07

Can you point to me to any famous event in history where a woman has been discriminated against simply because she was a blonde?

It's not as simple as that though, is it? The essence of the blonde joke is that 'she' is 'dumb'; there are any number of examples, surely, of women being treated badly throughout history because they were perceived, and aggressively publicised, as ... being stupid, because of the way they looked. I don't know if referring to contemporary hair fashions of the time would necessarily get you off the hook there.

There were a lot of jokes circulating about 'redheads' in Thirties America, for example, which came to much the same sort of conclusion.

21:59 / 13.02.07

We've been through the blonde thing over and over again. You don't see it as misogynist. Funnily enough, that is rather in your best interests. In part because it exonerates you and allows you to do what you want to do in the first place - just as you are about to tell us why when you tell jokes about Jews, it's fine - but also because it allows you to keep demanding attention.

Good grief, man, you are really reaching. That joke is about rabbis who traditionally perform circumcisions in the Hebrew culture. This is not a stereotype. Nothing in that joke is making fun of Jews. The joke is a pun on the word "tip". Fuck, who do you think circumcised me?

It's not a joke about Jews. It involves a Jew, yes, but that's because circumcisions are routinely performed by rabbis. Sure, surgeons do it too but traditionally (and in most parts of the world) it's done by rabbis.

If the joke had the word "surgeon" in it it wouldn't work too well because well, mainly, the word "surgery" is usually associated with more complex procedures.

Please, I find your arguements more offensive than the dumb blonde jokes on this thread. Have you ever even been to a synagogue?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

22:02 / 13.02.07

Oh yeah? Did we forget about the "six million Jews" thing upthread? Or are you just hoping no-one'll read back that far?

22:06 / 13.02.07

It's not as simple as that though, is it? The essence of the blonde joke is that 'she' is 'dumb'; there are any number of examples, surely, of women being treated badly throughout history because they were perceived, and aggressively publicised, as ... being stupid, because of the way they looked. I don't know if referring to contemporary hair fashions of the time would necessarily get you off the hook there.

I decided not to respond to the other posts because yours caught my attention the most. I suddenly see why none of you see my point of view.

You guys don't hear/read "blonde woman". All you hear is "woman". You guys are so obsessed with what gender somebody is that the main point of the thing (the HAIR COLOR) is lost on you.

Now I don't understand why this is the case but I'm pretty sure you'll find the following VERY misogynistic, sexist, and offensive:

There's a redhead, a brunette, and a blonde. They're all at the NASA space center. The redhead says to the flight technician "I want to go to the moon". The flight technician says she can go tomorrow. The brunette says "I want to go to Mars". He says she can go next week. The blonde says "I want to go to the sun". The flight technician says, "Don't you know you'll burn up?" The blonde says "Well, then I'll go at night."

22:09 / 13.02.07

Oh yeah? Did we forget about the "six million Jews" thing upthread? Or are you just hoping no-one'll read back that far?

Wow, you guys are running out of arguements. First off, I didn't post that. Second of all, it's funny because it looks very offensive at first glance but when you think about it it's only designed to LOOK offensive whereas it's actually quite... ok. It mocks the reader. Just like the fact that the reader automatically associates Volkswagen with Germans and Germans with Nazis. Because we all know that all Germans are Nazis, right?

It's a loaded joke meant to expose your hidden prejudices.

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:10 / 13.02.07

A mohel doesn't have to be a rabbi, by the way, so I really don't know whether a rabbi circumcised you. It's perfectly possible, though. I hope it went well for you.

Annnyway. You've decided now that this joke is in no way offensive, because told by you, despite that fact that you originally told it to show how _anything_ could be funny, no matter what the subject matter. So, bit of a reach there. However, this need not really concern us.

So, to put it another way. Has anyone so far, apart from your brother, backed your fixation on blonde to the exclusion of noticing that the butts of all the jokes are women? Would you mind taking a look? I don't think that the break between two black eyes and hair of flax is quite as abrupt as you argue, and I don't think anyone else is buying your argument wholesale either.

22:19 / 13.02.07

A mohel is usually a rabbi or a doctor. You could use "mohel" in the joke but people will be confused and, if this thread is any indication, some will be offended by it because obviously rabbis/mohels performing circumcisions is an anti-Semitic stereotype.

22:20 / 13.02.07

That was sarcasm, btw.

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