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Donnie Darko (Spoilers)

 
  

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Tamayyurt
16:19 / 02.11.02
He's fingering his eye because he gets his eye shot off in the tangent universe and he was probably feeling some sort of phantom sensation. Like someone walking over your grave.

Li'l sister is saved too since the website reveals that patrick swayze's paedophile character kills himself on the golf course the day after donnie is killed by the engine.

Damn, I didn't know that, which makes the ending so much better. I hated that he was gonna get away and that the vicious little gym teacher wasn't gonna get her fragile beliefs shattered. Now I'm happy.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
04:41 / 03.11.02
I finally got to see the movie today, and I thought it was stunning. I had read virtually no spoilers whatsoever, so I was constantly trying to figure out where the film was going as it went along, so I definitely need to watch it again tomorrow bearing in mind what I've read in this thread. As the movie unfolded, the more I got a sense of what was going on, but I can't help but feel I missed a lot nothing having any idea what to expect.

I'm wondering if I'm the only one who most responded to the Fear Vs. Love / Patrick Swayze / crazy gym teacher the most out of all the ideas swirling around in the film. I would say that as of now, my favorite scenes in the film were the one where Donnie refuses to place an x on the Fear ---- Love line, and when he takes on Patrick Swayze's character in the assembly.

Having seen it the first time, it's probably one of the most original pieces of art I've ever seen. There's just nothing in the world quite like it - I especially like how it zig zags wildly between populist accessability and bizarro avant garde weirdness. More things need to be like that.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:25 / 03.11.02
I have now decided that my favourite Donnie scene is definitely the one where Gretchen says her dad has emotional problems and he goes, really me too! What kind does he have? Heheheheheheh

Frank though hasn't been shot yet. Not for another 28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes and possibly 12 seconds!!!!?
 
 
sleazenation
11:44 / 04.11.02
I figured frank was fingering his eyebecause he had traveled back in his body in time just as donnie did and thus remembered being shot in the face but didn't have a missing eye because of it...


The question i have is, was the tangent universe a perpetual loop before donnie closed it ?
 
 
The Natural Way
12:13 / 04.11.02
I just can't be arsed to attempt to *explain* bits like the fingering of the eye, etc. Something deep inside of all the characters instinctively responds to the cataclysm...that all we need to know. Gretchen *remembers* Donny and his family....Frank fingers his eye....blah...

I knew the Fear/Love line would get you, Flux. You like all that human shit...get w/ the 4th dimension, baby! No, seriously, TBH it was the non-science fiction-y stuff that really got me off, too.

Fave bits: Donny explaining that, yes, he is unsure...and very, very afraid; and Gretchen kissing him because, well, at least if they can kiss each other, the world is a "beautiful place". And I don't give 2 fucks if that makes me a cheesemonger, Ms Ironic distance up there!
 
 
memedream
13:04 / 07.11.02
don't forget that donnie stabbed frank in the eye with a knife in the bathroom... and he apologises for it in the cinema when frank takes the rabbit suit off

and how on earth do you get in to the website?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:46 / 07.11.02
Well I suppose if they all have a collective memory of the other future than that would work. I might have to buy the soundtrack on Monday!
 
 
The Strobe
17:05 / 07.11.02
memedream: did he? He certainly tried to, but the fourth wall appeared to bend, not pierce, and there were flashes with Franks head changing alignment, etc... I didn't think he succeeded. And the hole does tally with the bullet as well...
 
 
dlotemp
01:26 / 08.11.02
Wow



Which Donnie Darko character are you? by Shay

If I were 16 in 1988, I'd want to date myself. The ultimate narcisism...or just really freaky.


RE: explanations
I think we need to abandon clear spatial and rational explantions for everything in the movie, like whether Donnie drove the car into the timestream. Instead, we're left with emotive explanations, ie. characters and event progress or skew at an emotional level that doesn't obey simple laws. Clearly, much of the movie is emotive as seen in all the movie video scenes which don't contribute actual dialogue or rationales; you feel the plot moving through the videos.

Just to show I'm not copping out - I'd like to know if the Jet engine WAS the Artifact!
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:59 / 08.11.02
I have been Donnie twice now. Totally different answers and I'm still (possibly a paranoid schizophrenic) guy with a sleep disorder and an imaginary rabbit as a friend. Worrying.

Mind you I'm still awake at 4am and that just screams sleep disorder really!
 
 
Naked Flame
07:59 / 08.11.02
For those who wanted the soundtrack, I just found it on CDBaby. And you can stream the cover of 'Mad World.' Woo!
 
 
memedream
08:14 / 08.11.02
sorry - just to ask again, how do you get past the screen with all the words "watch carefully miss something" etc on the site?
are there passwords?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
09:54 / 08.11.02
One of the passwords is 'Smurf', the password asked for after the letter that Donnie writes to Grandma Death is the word that's highlighted in either red or white in the letter. I'd go back in there now but I'm like, y'know, working
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
12:02 / 08.11.02
Memedream: do you mean the bit right after the "donnie darko" cloud logo thing? If so, for me that one skips straight into a shot of a Virginia Dept of Justice document where you just click anywhere and hit Y at the prompt. Or do you mean somewhere else?

Random Bits:

- The car journey at the end is, I *think*, just symbolic for his journey back to the start ofthe tale. I think he stops the car pretty much where we first find him asleep in the road. Or he's just looking for a good seat to watch the show from. Or both.

- Pretty sure the engine was the Artifact. According to the site, the Artifact is always metal, and must be returned to the right place in spacetime by the Living Reciever to collapse the Tangent Universe and save the Primary one. Seems to fit the bill, assuming Grandma Death wasn't too gaga at time of writing. And yes, that does mean that Donnie is ultimately killed by a version of himself that exists only because he didn't get killed when he should have...ouch.

- I think the engine is also the spacecraft he discusses with the physics teacher, what's-his-name. Presumably that's how he gets his (somewhat wiser) soul back to a point early enough to stay in bed and get killed. "Why are you wearing that stupid man-suit?"
Lada: Presumably only his spirit rtavels because there's a version of his body already waiting. Solves the problem of leg-room, anyway.

- For me the film is mostly about Love vs Fear. I think I get the Divine Intervention bit(presumably how the Tangent universe came to be in the first place), but it's just a foundation for me. Every significant character in the film is afraid of something.

- Donnie's sleepwalking episodes seem driven more by an urge to get away from his bed than to somewhere in particular, including the episode mentioned on the site. I guess that means that he knew (subconsciously or otherwise) the engine was on it's way years before it hit/missed.

Ugh, there's more but I must do some work.
 
 
sleazenation
20:51 / 10.11.02
Watched this again last night -- some thought's...

Frank's eye is caused by Donnie's gun shot - you see the wound when he falls to the ground.

Roberta sparrow's Book sheds a LOT of light on this film... The manipulated living wake with feelings of guilt and remorse for donnie's death (the necessary death of the living reciever) - and this is why jim cunningham emties out his house before killing himself instead of playing golf as he does in the tangent universe.

Frank is supposed to be more powerful than donnie and able to travel in time - does this mean he is able to tavel to moments outside of the tanget universe?

Is Roberta Sparrow's extensive knowledge and rememberence of time travel a result of her being the manipulated dead from a previous tangent universe? - The extensive notes in her book naming donnie as the living reciever and all the other characters in their various roles seems to imply this...
and this also implies that Roberta Sparrow and other manipulated dead have traveled in time outside their own tangent universes....
 
 
dlotemp
22:44 / 10.11.02
Sleaze nation - here are a couple of comments from the annotating thread that respond to your Sparrow question.

from me -
I do think that's an interesting theory but needlessly complicated. There is only one remnant from a tangent universe even discussed and that's the engine. Plus, it's established that she does die at the age of 101 in the Mainstream Universe (see the Donnie Darko website for details) and so I don't think she's dead already. It does beggar the question what IS her connection with time travel? Was she a Receiver? Did she undergo a similar trial? How did she know so much about Donnie at the time she wrote the book? I think it's easier to say that she was a Manipulated Living person and, due to her theological background, perhaps she had a divine revelation about the meaning of time. Kelly has stated in interviews that he considered one of the movie's themes to be "divine intervention" so perhaps God sent a message through Sparrow that would prepare Donnie in the future?


from Reality Is Psychosomatic At 01:39 11.11.2002:
Isn't the Sparrow a traditional psychopomp? Like the (literal) Crow in the movie of the same name, Roberta Sparrow function as an indirect guide for Donnie's journey. Her function as a bridge between the worlds of the living and the dead would also fit her Grandma Death nickname - which sounds quite voodoo-esque as well.

Mapping her conversion is interesting -- she moves from the realm of faith in God to devotion to science. This seems like an important conversion, echoing Donnie's merging of the science of time travel with the search for God.<<

I think the last suggestion is pretty keen - that Sparrow is a psychopomp - a medium between the different states. That's an elegant solution.
 
 
bjacques
09:16 / 11.11.02
I think it's a given that any movie discussion is going to be riddled with spoilers, so it should be expected from the start.

I've only seen it once (thanks Stoatie!) but I noticed that when Donnie did to try to fix things, they got worse.

1) Burning down Cunningham's house exposes the kiddie porn stash, but the gym teacher then stays home to save Cunningham's honor, getting Mrs. Darko to chaperone the girls to Hollywood and returning on the fatal red-eye flight.
2) Approaching Charita, who has a crush on him, makes her feel worse.
3) Going to Grandma Death's cellar door to for final answers gets Gretchen killed.

(Nothing became his life so much as the leaving of it.)

All the things he did that were humanly possible went awry; only the supernatural thing he did--sending himself and the jet engine back in time and siiting on the big black X--worked.

Donnie should have been dead, learns he has a second chance, but it's only to sacrifice himself so the universe "works" correctly.

Gretchen still has to worry about her psycho dad, and Donnie's sister and her friends still are menaced by Cunningham, but they're alive and have a chance to end up ok. The two junior thugs are still a problem, and the English teacher will probably still get fired, but Donnie didn't buy us a perfect universe, just one that still exists..




Speaking if FRANK, FRANK just emailed me to say I should get a mortgage NOW while interest rates are at their lowest in 40 years!
 
 
dlotemp
17:11 / 11.11.02
bjacques

The Donnie Darko website notes that Cunningham commits suicide the day after Donnie's death. One poster suggested, and I think appropriately, that Cunningham probably retained some remnant of his Tangent life that caused him grea despair. So no one has to worry about Cunningham in either reality.

you state >>Burning down Cunningham's house exposes the kiddie porn stash, but the gym teacher then stays home to save Cunningham's honor, getting Mrs. Darko to chaperone the girls to Hollywood and returning on the fatal red-eye flight. <<

yes, but I don't think that's Donnie's fault as much as Frank's who manipulated Donnie into committing the arson. In fact, Frank is a thorn in Donnie's side since he saves Donnie in the beginning and possibly sets the whole travesty in motion.

A good question is why would Frank cause such hardship when it results in his death? Was it necessary to save Donnie for another reason?


You're last two suggestions are good but I thought his meeting with Charita was a good reminder for us and Donnie about the secret emotional world that we all contain. That we need to treat the world around us with care. I thought it reinforced Donnie's humanity which comes into play later in the movie. I didn't think it was such a terrible experience. Still, yeah, he does mess up occassionally.

>>2) Approaching Charita, who has a crush on him, makes her feel worse.
3) Going to Grandma Death's cellar door to for final answers gets Gretchen killed.<<
 
 
sleazenation
21:03 / 11.11.02
Actually i never figured that the engine falling off the plane in the tangent universe was fatal - planes are designed to keep in the air even if one of thair engines shuts down (ok in this case it was wrenched off the craft but you get the idea)

I also disagree with the idea that frank could have avoided creating the tangent universe by letting donnie stay in bed -donnie had to choose to be there - to see and learn what his continued life would cost ...
 
 
Cherry Bomb
21:23 / 11.11.02
Perhaps the reason everything "Donnie the human" does goes pear-shaped in the tangent universe is because he really isn't supposed to exist after October 2, 1998? Also don't forget, if you look at the Roberta Sparrow's book on the web site, the manipulated living are afraid of the living receiver- and think he's crazy. Not only that, but (according to Roberta Sparrow's book) in order to conjure the portal you need water (flooding the school) and fire (burning down Jime Cunningham's house).

Also, I thought it was Frank, not Donnie, who says, "I'm so sorry" in the movie theatre. Which makes sense, doesn't it? Shortly after that Donnie asks him a question about what he (D) is supposed to do, to which Frank replies, "I think you all ready know the answer." And I think he does. That's why he's crying during his therapy session. Because he doesn't want to die, but he knows he has to.

And sleaze is right, if you observe Frank's wound immediately after Donnie shoots him, you'll see it is identical to the wound he has in the movie theatre (right down to the blood drip by his eye).

And if Roberta Sparrow wasn't once the manipulated dead, how does she know all about the tangent universe? It seems impossible - unless you say that the manipulated dead in the primary universe have some memory of what happened in the tangent universe.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
21:25 / 11.11.02
Oh, and like the way Gretchen's sleeping form in the theatre mirrors her dead form in the car later on, as does the clock in "Evil Dead" (the scene during which Frank shows Donnie the portal) , which later mirrors the clock, and the shadow on it, at the party.
 
 
dlotemp
22:32 / 11.11.02
I think that's good point about Donnie needing to make a conscious decision about his sacrafice, obviously it's the choice which creates the necessary emotional and mental gravity. Otherwise, he's just a boy involved in a freakish death.
 
 
bjacques
11:17 / 12.11.02
This is a fantastic dissection of the movie! I've been trying to get a friend of mine to check it out since she loved the movie too.

dlotemp,

I haven't gotten very deep inside the website, but I wonder if Frank somehow learned his fate in the tangent universe. Unless he saved Donnie from the jet engine, the prime universe is destroyed. Also, by setting Donnie on his course, Frank ensures his own survival (and everybody else's) in the prime universe. At worst, his eye itches for awhile.
But I knew from what you'd said about Cunningham killing himself. But Donnie didn't know any of that, and it must have occurred to him he'd be the prime suspect for the arson, especially if the cops found out Gretchen had been asleep. But, yeah, the red-eye flight is not necessarily doomed.

La Jetee is well worth getting hold of. It's only 28 minutes long. 12 Monkeys is good too, but there are crucial differences in motivation at the climaxes of the respective movies, so if you see one you should see the other.
 
 
Chubby P
11:08 / 14.11.02
I found this complete guide to the Donnie Darko website. Its a bit long but it gives you access to the whole site. Has anyone got any further than this?

Okay, you get to the site by going to www.donniedarko.com and a couple of windows open. One is an IFC window with a trailer and playdates. The other starts the site and has a TV image of Donnie with his hand held up.

Move your mouse arrow over the target on his hand and the words "i can do anything i want" appear. Click the target and you'll see Frank for a second followed by the words "and so can you".

Then on the main screen a clock tells you how long ago the "Tangent Universe" collapsed. Click the word in red to "proceed" to the site.
A prompt window will appear offering to allow you to enter the code word to access level one. If you want to miss out on some cool graphics, by all means, the password is "sparrow". But you can also click "otherwise proceed here" below.

By making the second choice you will see Donnie in his famous hooded sweater and a graphic will grow out of his chest and flow across the screen to show the title logo. There will be a dissolve and then the cautionary words "Pay close attention to the screen. You could miss
something." The next graphic is a report on Donnie's "escape attempt" from Clearview Juvenile Detention Center. Click the page and an affidavit detailing the "escape" will superimpose over the image.

Type "y" to proceed. "N" doesn't do anything, I checked.
You will then get to read the rest of the report and should type "y" again which will take you to the main navigation page.

Allow your mouse to drift over the red crosses on the right to illuminate the words "everybody dies alone". These will also bring up red navigation text so you can access the three levels. Each will say that the level is active and will also change the black floating text in the background. The text is a random mix of the words "Pay close attention to the screen. You could miss something. There's something
I want you to see."

Click the red level one cross where the word dies appears. A graphic will appear with a skeleton along with the words "things aren't that simple". Take your mouse to the upper left corner of the screen where the next red cross is and as your arrow drifts over it the words "she died alone..." will drift into place.

A copy of the December 29th, 1988 Middlesex Times Dispatch Obituary column will appear in a new window giving the details of Roberta Sparrow's death and another obituary for Sarah Walters.
Back on the main page you'll find a new red cross with the floating words "let no one know I gave you this". Clicking that cross will bring up another newspaper article detailing the death of Dr. Monitoff which offers the interesting tidbit that he had a wife and two children.

A new cross will appear bearing the legend "a guide in a time of great danger". Clicking it will partially open a letter, but first you'll need the password. "Her name was that of a bird" is the clue, and if you haven't guessed already, the answer is "sparrow" as in Roberta Sparrow, a.k.a. Grandma Death. Click the astrix to type the
code.

This will open the letter the rest of the way. Once you've read the letter, click it for the next page which asks the disarming question "Do you believe in time travel?" Clicking here brings up a shadow image of Frank and three windows each with one word in them; "remember", "one", and "word". Closing any of these will bring up another window with the word to remember. That word is ways "smurf" in my experience.

Closing the "smurf" window will take you further along to a
new Donnie graffic. On the left hand side is, you guessed it, a red cross. Clicking it opens a window with a snip of footage showing Donnie's dad in the car. Click his dad and another snippet of footage from the same scene appears (hi, Donnie). Click the new window and yet another view from this scene shows up (from the backseat). Click that window and four new small windows open up showing a complete
image of Grandma Death telling Donnie that every living creature dies alone. Click Grandma Death (lower right window) and the windows disappear and her quote blacks out most of the background. The cover of the time travel book should now appear. (There seem to be a lot of
glitches with this page so hope for the best and don't click
anything if you don't know what it is.)

A pop-up will appear prompting you to enter the code for the next stage. Type the word smurf into this pop-up and four new pop-up windows with smurf images will show up. Click any one of the four smurfs for the code to level two "breathe" which is inside the letter from Donnie to Grandma Death. We heard all this text in the movie but
only now get to see the letter. Click the word "breathe".
Here you are given a choice between level 2 and reading for clues to level 3. Take the latter choice by closing the window. Navigate the book by clicking the red crosses at the left and the images at the right will change. Hold your mouse over the page to illuminate each passage.

To go on to level two click your back button and follow the preceding steps again until you get the prompt to proceed to level two. Go ahead and do this now that you've checked out the book. You will be back at the main navigation page. Click the far right cross for level 2, and remember, the password is "breathe".

Click the large red cross here and you'll be on the golf course. A small red dot brings together the floating text "don't be a prisoner of fear". By clicking this dot you will happily get to read about how Jim Cunningham bought the farm, unfortunately without any evidence
coming out about his penchant for kiddie porn. A new red dot is on the links. The floating text this time tells you to "wake up, Donnie!" Click that dot and Donnie and Jim and the doctor will appear on the course. The floating text on the dr. and J.C. will ask you to "place an x on the lifeline". Clicking the golfers brings up a
chalkboard and television along with some instructions. Please follow them and use your mouse to drag the chalk across the board to answer the questions. It's a pity that you cannot proceed by refusing to do this admittedly stupid and pointless exercise. The correct answers are both on the "fear" side of the lifeline, by the way.

Donnie's great speech about the stupidity of the assignment
follows. Click the television screen to see a rendering of Frank and click the screen again and the window will fill with pop-ups of Frank each with a letter of the sentence "wake up, Donnie". Click any one of the windows and we're back on the golf course. This time hold your mouse over Donnie for the floating message "do you think he was sleepgolfing?"

Click Donnie this time and watch him wake up. A graffic will come out of his right eye and terminate in a white arrow. Click the arrow for the next question "Who found the wallet?" Now you're right if you answer Donnie, but the answer they're looking for is from the exercise you just completed. Ling found the wallet according to Jim
Cunningham, so type "ling" here for a clip and a dissolve to
the next screen.

Some weird red lines appear and one of them ends with a tiny red dot. Click the dot to read another issue of the Middlesex Times. Back on the main screen there isn't much going on. A few little dots and right angles, just click anywhere and a graffic of the scene where Donnie finds the wallet appears. Click the flashing red wallet.
Donnie bends down to pick it up and you'll see Jim
Cunningham's driver's license picture; what a dork! Hold your pointer over the blacked out lines at the bottom of the license to find out where he lives. Click his address and the coolest grafic of all starts. Six windows appear at the upper right. Click any one of them. Another clip will start in the upper left. Click that one too. You will receive the instruction "Burn it down, Donnie."

Now you should be back at the main navigation window. Time for level 3. Click the leftmost red cross and you will be prompted to enter the name of "the street he lives in like the flower". Despite the bad grammar type the word "rose" here.

A new grafic appears of the FAA guys and some text telling you when and where the accident occurred. Click on the address and a clip of the chandelier will pop up. Click the chandelier and you will have another newspaper article about the crash to read with a link at the bottom to another article. Read them both, return to the main page,
and click "okay" on the spoiler warning. Click the
telephone/text icon on the chandelier. Read the info in the new text window then click "launch the document". What follows once you click it is a audio/text version of a phone call from a tech guy at Heathrow airport to the mysterious FAA guy who we see following Donnie around
through most of the movie (if you don't believe me about this guy watch it again and look for a fat guy smoking in a red running suit).
Okay, this is the part where everybody (including me) gets stuck. Once the phone call runs out, so does Donnie's (your) time according to a prompt at the right side of the screen. Now what is it that we are supposed to do during the call? I've found that the text of the phone call can be altered, but I don't know if that is part of what you are supposed to do.

Some thoughts:
1) Fill in the edited parts of the phone text?
2) Delete certain parts?
3) Add extraneous text?

The problem with number one is finding the correct answers. Who is this guy from Heathrow? What's the name of the FAA guy? What kind of plane has an engine like that? Are their names on the list of the living at the back of the time travel book? (I don't think so, but I'll have to look.)

The problem with number two is… what parts? I've tried
deleting one side of the conversation and then the other. I've even deleted it all as it appeared. Nothing seems to work along those lines.

Number three is a bigger problem. What text could you add, and where? Also, when do you add it? There seem to be no easy solutions.
Perhaps there are no solutions easy or otherwise. Maybe like the open-ended nature of the film itself the website means to end where it does and gives no easy answers. Kind of like life.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:36 / 15.11.02
I haven't gotten very deep inside the website, but I wonder if Frank somehow learned his fate in the tangent universe.

I think that may be a statement adhering to linear time (have just seen this and was a bit teary at the end, although I think a very good teen movie was ruined by all that mad bunny crap). It occurs to me that Monitoff says (twice, in fact) that to travel in time you need a portal (Einstein-Rosen Bridge) and a vessel made of metal. Fire and water are also mentioned, and by flooding the school and burning down Jim's house (as has been mentioned) Donnie is being driven by Frank to create the conditions for manipulating a portal, while at the same time meshing with Donnie's own unbalanced personality (he's a "whacko" *before* the tangent splits off, and he's already a sleepwalker - the "saving" by Frank is both cause and symptom of the creation of the Tangent).

Now, notwithstanding the manipulated dead, it occurs to me that in one notable moment Donnie seems to be about to punch through something when he uses the knife (metal) on the mirror - the conditions are not right for the portal to be generated, and Samantha stops him.

Sooo....the jet engine falls through a portal the origin of which is unknown, but how about the Einstein-Rosen model? If we assume (as we have to) that the speed of light thing is not in fact the case (as presumably we must if we take the jet engine to be the "vessel", that is to say the artifact that actually travels in time), what else is happening at the same time involving a metal object and a portal. I'm buying bullet and entry wound/eye socket. So, within the tangent universe, the conjunction of Donnie, metal object and portal creates time travel in and of itself (connected or unconnected to the jet engine portal - and at this point linear cause and effect have gone for a complete burton, by the way). So, Frank *is* a time travel event in himself, which is why his affect and effect on the tangent and on Donnie is so different to Gretchen's. Frank is travelling *backwards* through the timeline, from end to beginning, as Donnie travels forward, from one opening of the portal to the other (the beginning and end of the tangent universe). Which is why he responds to Donnie's question about his eye with "I'm so sorry" - he is sorry both for killing Gretchen and because Donnie himself is already dead, both of which have, for him, already happened.

Just a thought.

I am a little surprised by all this palaver about the film and the site as an integrated whole. The film seems to me perfectly comprehensible without the text of Sparrow's book, or anything else available ont he website. This seems to be at best an appendix; the same sort of otiose content that characterises DVDs...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:25 / 16.11.02
But half the loveliness of the film is the amount you discover about the characters. I want to know what happens next in the universe, I want to fit Grandma Death and everyone else in to the film as completely as I can and the website gives you a chance to do that.

Donnie Darko bombards you with so much information that it leaves you craving more.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:36 / 16.11.02
I would generally consider it bad form for those involved in the creation of a piece to fanfic it, but, hey, it worked for Paul Darrow in "Avon: A Terrible Aspect".

Oh, hang, on. It didn't.

I'm not denying that the web site is amusing. But I don't think it is in any way integral.
 
 
memedream
10:46 / 16.11.02
I really want to know more about cherita.. especially after I notice, upon watching the film for the second time last night: Grandma Death is wearing Cherita's dress from the Autumn Dance recital she did in the last scene where Frank swerves to miss hitting her....

more great crossover action
 
 
dlotemp
13:20 / 16.11.02
The Haus -

I think that's a very nice theory surrounding the events.
 
 
Cat Chant
15:57 / 16.11.02
Much as I hate to just show up in this thread and say "Well, I didn't like it that much"... I didn't like it that much, and I'm trying to figure out what it was that you all seem to have gotten from it that I didn't, or what it was that I didn't like, or what it was that just meant it didn't mesh with my head - I was blown away by Being John Malkovitch and Lost Highway, pretty unexpectedly, but for some reason this just - didn't quite do it for me.

I thought it was unsatisfying in that it set up all these little clues and hooks and didn't really follow through on them - but it also didn't thematize that & fuck with the whole desire for rational understanding, the way I feel, for example, Twin Peaks does.

It might just be that I didn't like Donnie all that much and most of the rest of the characters seemed bland, so I didn't engage with the film that much, since the few characters who were interesting didn't get full narrative arcs (I know that was the point, though). Gretchen in particular had no discernible character, so I didn't care that she died, which sort of made the film have no point.

Why was Patrick Swayze's character a paedophile? That was just a plot device, surely (it wasn't thematized in the film or followed up)? Why wasn't he evil enough as he was - wasn't the evil that Donnie sees in him enough? Why did it have to be spelt out by branding him with this decade's EVIL(TM) term?

I think maybe I just wasn't open to enough of the levels, so that all I really got was the Christ allegory, which meant that most of the film was pretty extraneous (and misleading) and that the last scene felt rather long and heavy-handed (He sacrificed himself! Okay! I get it!)

Hmm. Sorry if I come across all naff and jaded, I don't mean to scoff or sneer or anything, I just - didn't get it, and I'd be interested to hear a little more about what people got out of it as a film or emotionally or whatever so I can at least see how what I didn't get worked for other people.

(Off to see Harry Potter tomorrow night and very excited about it, which probably explains the whole thing, actually. I'll get me coat.)
 
 
dlotemp
19:06 / 16.11.02
Deva -

I want to respond to one of your points because I think it offers an opportunity to open another level to the film. I felt that the film was also discussing the depth of human life versus a linear approach, which is too objective. You ask why Cunningham isn't evil enough? I think it's because Richard Kelly is trying to demonstrate the people can not be easily categorized. As Donnie points out, you can't compartmentalize actions between Fear or Love, and that there are many other human emotions that influence our decisions and actions. Donnie is a deeply troubled youth who commits a murder, yet he is also painted in a Christ-like martyrdom. Does Donnie go back in time because of his love for Gretchen or because of his fear of this tangent universe? Why does he commit martyrdom if he's afraid of dying alone? The movie offers a complex puzzle of human emotions that, I think, shows that our emotional life is much like time: it occurs all at once. This line of thought than led me to consider whether thought and time and emotions could be linked at some conceptual level. The movie is like mandala in that way, continuingly leading the receptive viewer to deeper considerations. Or you could say its a fractal.

Or you could think its just confusing. :-)

anyway, I found the movie deeply moving in a subtle way. Also, I thought the sincerity of the film, the honest sadness at the end, lifted this movie above the usual heavy-handed malarkey posing at pathos in movies.
 
 
Cat Chant
19:12 / 16.11.02
dlotemp - Ooh! Thanks! I like this fractal idea a lot - that gives me a glimpse of what I think I missed.

Though about Cunningham - I thought he was quite evil enough as a spurious guru, & it was a bit cheap to make him a paedophile as well - as though the director wanted to make quite sure we knew he was evil & wouldn't come to our own conclusions about it. The opposite of not easily categorized, in fact.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:59 / 16.11.02
Deva: I think it helped that I have a thing for men with romanticized psychiatric problems, thankfully this isn't true in reality, Donnie, Billy (6 ft under), Jim (with the strangeness in 28 Days Later). Psychoanalytically the film had problems, Donnie and Drew Barrymore were the only likable characters in the movie. He had genuine problems and she was the only person who was truly nice to him. Maybe that was one of the reasons it didn't catch you?
 
 
_pin
23:34 / 16.11.02
<wanker%gt

Is it "why are you wearing that stupid man-suit?" or is it "why are you wearing that stupid-man suit?"

Aaah...

</wanker>

And Drew had to be fired to write "Cellar Door" on the baord to be a clue for Donnie to once again show him that the tangent universe is out of control.

How many people noticed that, after seeing "Frank was here. Left to get beer" on the board and seeing everyone's destinies, when he looks up is face is at Gretchn's chest? Destinies linked, anyone?

And am I dumb and missed the bit where this was explained, or is Frank as "manipulated" as Sparrow? On the 2nd, at the end, he is shown surrounded by what appears to be obsessive... plans (?) for the Frank costume. And he travels back in time FURTHER then the start of the Tangent universe- HOW? Evidence of further manipulation in his over-dramatic sense of dynasty and destiny ("it was my father's name, and his father's before me")

Also- the film works without the website. After my first (and thus far only) viewing, it was clear that he went back to save Gretchin, and "to go back and change all those bad times and replace them with good memories". Or whatever she says. By going back to the 2nd, Frank and Gretchin never die, he never has to burst the watermain so the shit doesn't hit the fan of The Destructors so Drew doesn't get fired, blah blah blah.

And why was the stabbing the wrong way around?? I was, at that point, looking forward to making a 'Donnie IS Frank" theory (he is stabbing into a mirror, hence left-right flip), but, uh... can't see that happening now.

And why is it that when Donnie and his friends are shooting and talking about Smurfs, they can see Grandma Death, but when Gretchen and Donnie are at the same place, he deosn't think to point her out to her? (Man, that last point is anal... )

Also, how is it that thirty people cannot get a single joke in that film??
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:14 / 17.11.02
Eh?

If you're saying that people here seem not to be talking about the comedy in the film, you may have a point, pin. On my most recent viewing the humour really struck me as being a big part of the film. Especially Donnie's slightly idiotic friends.

"It's good shit, huh?"

"It's a fucking cigarette."

Also, in response to Deva's posts, sort of, I had been thinking the other day, whilst reading this thread and the 'Annotations' one, that a lot of what we've been talking about here has been to do with trying to piece together the various elements of the plot and themes of the film rather than talking about how it works *as a film*. I don't know what else to say about that other than that the start of DD has to be one of my favourite opening sequences of any movie, ever. We pan through misty North American mountain and forest country at dawn, then come to rest on a prone figure lying in the middle of the road, on a corner, their bike lying at the side of the road next to them. For all we know he could be dead at this point - and yeah, you can think of Gretchen in the road at the end, but it also reminds me of Martin Donovan waking up at the start of Hal Hartley's Amateur - it's a fantastic visual image and as a way to start a story it's just brilliant...

Anyway, the figure slowly and awkwardly sits up, and we see that it's a teenage boy. He gets to his feet, stares out at the landscape in confusion and wonder, then as he turns towards us, breaks into a grin, shaking his head in disbelief. As he vanishes from view the words appear: 'Donnie Darko'. He gets onto his bike, starts to cycle down the hill, and Echo & The Bunnymen's 'The Killing Moon' starts to play.

And then all the suburbian stuff and that. I'm just saying, there is a level on which the film works as a collection of well-executed images, lines of dialogue and set-pieces - even if you don't think the time travel stuff can be reconciled into a coherent explanation of what 'really' happens (and I don't).

Something else I remembered seeing it for the third time, which I got the first time but had forgotten, is how unlikeable Donnie comes the first time he speaks, in the dinnertable scene. He doesn't start off a hero...
 
  

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