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Torchwood- Season One Discussion (As It Happens) SPOILERS

 
  

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penitentvandal
08:16 / 20.11.06
Yeah - as scary rural villages go, Royston Vasey pwns the village of the cannibals. Now, if they sent Torchwood there, that would be interesting.

Gwen: Oh my god...Owen, what's happening? What's happened to you, Owen?

Owen: I'm all right...Dave.

Gwen: My name's...not...Dave...

Owen(turns around): YOU'RE MY WIFE NOW!

Not that that's much of a stretch...

Also loving the way a police officer who went up against the mother of all barroom brawls in the first episode is apparently traumatised by the thought that people might kill each other for no good reason. Because, you know, the real monsters are people, you see. Oh, and the faeries. And the cyberwomen. And the alien sex gases. But, you know, mainly the people.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
08:44 / 20.11.06
Exactly. In my limited experience of police officers, especially those on the beat, they are well aware of the fact that people can be a bunch of c*nts, and very little of human depravity would surprise them, let alone send them into catatonic shock.

Admittedly they might raise an eyebrow at cannibalism, but child abuse and "ordinary" murder is appalling and distressing too, and that's the sort of thing they are there to investigate. They deal with the nastiest people around on a day-to-day basis, for God's sake (insert colleagues gag here). That's a police(wo)man's job.
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:23 / 20.11.06
I'm still trying to work out how the cannibals were able to silently grab Tosh whilst she was standing a metre or so behind Ianto.

Anyone else think that the team doesn't actually have that much combat experience aside from duffing up the odd Weevil? All the special ops Torchwood soldiers must've got killed during Doomsday leaving only the lab staff.

Not a terrible episode. Brainless action. Ianto's headbutt did elicit a "Fuck yeah!" from me. Owen switching into actual professional doctor mode was good as well (although the scene between him and Gwen was about as creepy and wince-worthy as Torchwood's got so far).

Surely Gwen ending up sleeping with him would make more sense if it was an end of season kind of thing? Big up Rhys as a nice reliable guy but, for obvious reasons, Gwen can't share with him. Build the growing divide between them. Rather than having him as a characterless bitpart that we really don't give a hoot about.

There seem to be a hell of a lot of non-Welsh people in Cardiff.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:54 / 20.11.06
The divide between locals and outsiders was kind of what the episode was, in part, about, no?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:01 / 20.11.06
I was expecting a show quite a lot like Doctor Who meets the X-Files and I've got something more like Robin Hood meets Scooby Doo.

If you genuinely think 'Countrycide' resembled an episode of Scooby Doo or (I assume you mean the recent series of) Robin Hood in content or tone, then we are simply watching two different programmes and shouldn't bother trying to discuss this.

Also, I don't know which X-Files you watched, but the one I saw featured protagonists who bungled things constantly despite their FBI training, one of whom continued to claim she didn't believe in aliens etc. over the course of several explicitly alien-filled seasons. This is what's bugging me about the reaction to Torchwood in this thread: not that I love it without reservation, just that some people's level of scorn for it seems to rely on an overly generous memory of several other shows. As another example, I find this first season, so far, episode for episode, easier to watch and enjoy than the last season of Doctor Who: it doesn't feature anything quite as jarringly intrusive as Who's music, not a performance as hammy and distractingly OTT as Tennant tended to be, and as I keep saying, I'll take Torchwood's slightly overplayed po-faced grimness over the rictus-like "sense of wonder! sense of wonder!" shit that infected Doctor Who long after it should have been dropped (it should have been dropped = around the end of season 1).
 
 
Whisky Priestess
11:54 / 20.11.06
Got to agree about the gurning of recent Who ... I do prefer Captain Jack's general restraint, but I think Jack's an excellent character who is currently being chucked away on this show.
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:45 / 20.11.06
The divide between locals and outsiders was kind of what the episode was, in part, about, no?

Maybe. Was the guy who shot Gwen a villager? Was he complicit in the cannibalism (all those new people turning up in the last five minutes distracted my poor little brane)? He didn't have much of an accent. It just seems that a series set in Cardiff, and actually filmed in Cardiff seems to have helluva lot of extras who sound relatively Londinium.
 
 
The Strobe
15:14 / 20.11.06
not a performance as hammy and distractingly OTT as Tennant tended to be

which is strange, because I find Barrowman unrepentantly hammy. I really can't bear his over-delivery of every single line. Tenant may have been gurning, but he had a sense of rise and fall; yes, the sense-of-wonder got irritating at times, but it wasn't permanently on.

Captain Exposition, By Comparison, Always Feels Like He's Talking Like This.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
15:17 / 20.11.06
Sometimes It's The Fault Of The Lines Though
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:27 / 20.11.06
Seriously, I know I'm one of the main designated apologists for this show on the board, but if people didn't like that one I don't know what they want from it...

Just this once, I'm in complete and total agreement with Flyboy.

This was my favourite episode so far. It took one of my favourite horror sub-genres and attempted to play it straight (and, believe it or not, with far less logical inconsistency than most of the "classics". And as regards recent stuff , having recently seen Wilderness and Severance, I reckon it was way better than Severance but not quite as good as Wilderness).

Fly (sorry, I really can't be arsed to spell the new name) also has a damn good point about the X-Files et al... I think a lot of the problems people are having with Torchwood are, as I keep saying but may well be wrong because very few people seem to agree with me, because they're expecting something from it that it's just not even trying to give them.

And even the haters have to admit, it's no Delta and the Bannermen...

No, that was good. Favourite episode so far. Not the best programme in the world, by a long shot, but there's a lot to love, and I'm loving it.
 
 
Evil Scientist
18:59 / 20.11.06
And even the haters have to admit, it's no Delta and the Bannermen...

When all's said and done RTD's a Dr Who fan. He'd never hurt us that bad.

Would he?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:50 / 20.11.06
If you genuinely think 'Countrycide' resembled an episode of Scooby Doo or (I assume you mean the recent series of) Robin Hood in content or tone, then we are simply watching two different programmes and shouldn't bother trying to discuss this.

Yes, the scene where the crew were all gathered in the kitchen, every stupid one of them ending up captured, reminded me of Scooby-Doo. I know that comparison can be criticised ~ no, the Scooby Gang didn't get threatened with actual baseball bats and butchers' knives ~ but just the foolish, cartoonish way they all wound up lined up in the kitchen with the big bad reminded me of the way in Scooby-Doo people will get captured ("Zoiks, Fred, he got you too!!!") but it just doesn't really matter because you know they're going to get out of it.

I suppose part of it is also the sense that next week, it's going to be a new episode and new villain, and the same crew bantering at the start before driving off to seek out spooky stuff in their big black Mystery Machine. The lack of any really meaningful continuity or development.

So while I can see that my comparison has its flaws, I genuinely did think it during that scene (ie. I'm not pretending it reminded me of a kids' cartoon, to make a snarky point) and I think there are also some grounds of similarity in terms of tone and... lack of affect. Lack of resonance. Lack of anything really mattering... not genuinely scary, or funny, or moving. (And Robin Hood, too, has that knockabout, childlike quality where everything seems to me only to register on a shallow level: cardboard villains, plots tied loosely together, everything wrapped up to begin again almost from scratch next week.)

I didn't find that for Doctor Who, which despite its irritating traits often did move me and make me feel we were dealing with things that "mattered" to those involved ~ and I didn't find that for The X-Files, which as its fans would admit, did sometimes deal in "Monsters of the Week" but also worked through a long (OK, too long) character and narrative arc, where people changed, and discovered things that affected their lives or understanding of their pasts, and mourned, and loved... and I sound like the sappiest X-Phile there, but again, I'm trying to identify the sense that things mattered. The betrayals, the lust, the deaths in Torchwood seem to leave most people on this thread very cold.

Maybe it's asking too much to compare Torchwood to X-Files or even Doctor Who in that regard, because the former hasn't been running long enough to build up that mythos, depth and resonance. But the signs aren't really promising. Torchwood seems a lot more inept with its characterisation than The X-Files did in Season One, as I remember. People surely cared about Rose and both recent Doctors, even when they were relatively new characters ~ after five episodes, for instance, I think there was poignancy and resonance that Torchwood utterly lacks.

Maybe I am still looking back at my comparison shows with misplaced nostalgia, although it's not as though the last two series of Doctor Who are some lost age of TV heaven that we're remembering in a golden haze. I fully agree that there were duff episodes of recent Who, and very annoying aspects throughout. But it rarely felt quite so flat and... pointless as Torchwood tends to feel, for me.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:05 / 20.11.06
Hang on...

being like Scooby Doo's bad now?

Shit.
 
 
Ganesh
20:08 / 20.11.06
Depending on context, yes. Or no.

Here, arguably yes.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:14 / 20.11.06
The X-Files had "depth and resonance"? Okay, you really have lost me now.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:18 / 20.11.06
arguably yes

It's certainly arguable, but why here especially?
 
 
Ganesh
20:21 / 20.11.06
Umm, in the context of Miss Wonderstarr's contention that Scooby Doo as an apparently strong influence/element within Torchwood isn't a Good Thing. Within that particular argument.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:31 / 20.11.06
Well, yes, within the "being like Scooby Doo is a bad thing" argument, I'd have to agree that yes, it is. But within that particular argument it's kind of doomed to failure.

I think what I MEANT to say was "why shouldn't Torchwood be like Scooby Doo" or even "WHAT'S WRONG WITH SCOOBY DOO (except for the ones with Scrappy in), GODDAMMIT???"

Buffy thrived on its Scooby Doo-ness, even joking about it within the series.

If it was like the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon, then yes, I'd be in the "it's shit" camp. Obviously.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:31 / 20.11.06
Unless that fucking unicorn got eaten by a weevil.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:13 / 20.11.06
Buffy's Scooby Doo-ness was an atmosphere thing, and it was soon dropped after the first series anyway - the formula changed dramatically from season 2 onwards, same as happened with Angel. Torchwood's Scooby Doo-ness is primarily how cheap it all is, in all senses of the word. Unlike Buffy, it doesn't seem intentional - again, we're back to the chasm of difference between what we were told we were getting with this series and what actually turned up.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:17 / 20.11.06
the chasm of difference between what we were told we were getting with this series and what actually turned up

I still disagree on this one. This is what I was expecting.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:19 / 20.11.06
Buffy's Scooby Doo-ness was an atmosphere thing, and it was soon dropped after the first series anyway

So a fair bit more than the first five episodes, then?

And iirc, they were still referencing Scooby Doo all the way through? (oo-ee-oo-ee-oo)? The "Scooby Gang"?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:33 / 20.11.06
The X-Files had "depth and resonance"? Okay, you really have lost me now.

Well, fair enough, we should step back in peace as we do seem, as you suggested above, to be on different planes here. If you're enjoying Torchwood, good ~ you're getting more out of it than I am, and yet still I'm the mug who's watching it every week despite being constantly disappointed.

The argument that anyone disappointed by Torchwood apparently being cartoonish, messy, slapdash and throwaway was "expecting the wrong thing" keeps getting valiantly advanced on this thread, but I think it's doomed. I pasted in quotations on a previous page that I think remind us accurately of how Torchwood was promoted in interviews. Preview material and trailers were linked to on this forum, if not on this thread. To make out that it was always advertised as a jokey, knockabout bit of fun is, I feel, a slightly desperate though generous retcon, contradicted by a lot of evidence because after all it was only being promoted and talked up a couple of months ago and this isn't exactly a case where we have to base argument and counter-argument on what people vaguely remember.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:38 / 20.11.06
Again:

In the announcement, on October 17, 2005, BBC Three controller Stuart Murphy said, "Torchwood is sinister and psychological... as well as being very British and modern and real." Davies was quoted as describing the series as "a British sci-fi paranoid thriller, a cop show with a sense of humour... dark, wild and sexy, it's The X-Files meets This Life."[5] Davies has since denied ever making this comparison, instead describing the show as "alleyways, rain, the city".[6]

I know this quotation, though useful to my argument, isn't the be-all and end-all of evidence, but how anyone can argue that the Torchwood promotion and hype led them to expect a live-action Scooby-Doo in Cardiff is beyond me.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:42 / 20.11.06
I didn't read the promo stuff (and I rarely believe that shit anyway), but I DID watch the trailers.

Sorry you're not enjoying it. I'm having a blast.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:44 / 20.11.06
Well, in a way I'm sorry too, but in a way I think I'm enjoying watching it and complaining all the way through it.

Also, to be fair to Torchwood, it's generating some interesting discussion; whereas I just noticed Robin Hood thread has been dead for a whole month.
 
 
some guy
04:13 / 21.11.06
"The X-Files had "depth and resonance"? Okay, you really have lost me now."

In the middle of an X-Files marathon with the partner and we've just started the sixth season. I was a casual viewer back in the day and probably thought like you, but watching the lot reveals that yes, it's got a surprising amount of depth and resonance. Monsters of the week, yes, but also a fair chunk of real drama and solid character development. It pisses all over Torchwood on just about every possible level (not least production values, which is just embarrassing considering parts of it are 13 years old).
 
 
■
08:51 / 21.11.06
Buffy thrived on its Scooby Doo-ness, even joking about it within the series.

Yes, it thrived precisely because it recognised its own ridiculousness but still took what was happening to the characters seriously. It also had the characters largely behave in the way you or I would: when confronted with hideous killings in the middle of nowhere, you just know Xander, Willow and Buffy would have seen American Werewolf and remembered not to split up and not to trust smiling coppers - possibly even made a clever gag or two about it, played with the genre. Torchwood are supposed to be geeky yet cool-ish guys and not one of them saw fit to mention any knowledge of Royston Vasey or Summerisle. They exist in an odd little vacuum.
I still like the show a fair amount, and it does have its good points, but the writing really isn't very good. And the Gwen/Owen thing? Gleeuuuuugghsssgh.

Still, I've stuck with it, which is more than I can say for Robin Hood. Is anyone still watching that?
 
 
Ganesh
09:18 / 21.11.06
As far as I'm able to tell, the Torchwood team is also supposed to be significantly older ie. adult professionals rather than high school students. I suppose my own point of unfavourable comparison would be Ultraviolet.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
09:31 / 21.11.06
No. I'm not even thinking about trying to watch Robin Hood any more. Whereas I used to get ready for parties in front of Doctor Who.

What I asked myself about the "copper! phew! OMG he's in league with them!" non-shock non-twist was similar to my feelings about a central twist in The Prestige: did they really, honestly think they were fooling anyone?

Given that Torchwood is aimed at a more adult audience who will have seen American Werewolf, the Wicker Man, etc. etc. and they can't, as in Doctor Who, rely on the naivete of the children watching to surprise their viewers, could the writer really, actually have thought that anyone was going to be taken in by the turncoat policeman trick? And if so, what have they replaced his brain with, and can I have some to insulate my loft?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:54 / 21.11.06
Stoatie: So a fair bit more than the first five episodes, then?

Yes, but again - atmosphere. First series of Buffy had a lightness of touch in its naffness that I just don't fel in Touchwood - in comparison, this is leaden and ham-fisted. Buffy S1 didn't want to be serious or adult. It included, lest we forget, an entire episode about a haunted puppet. There's your Scooby Doo-ness right there. Torchwood is what Scooby Doo would have been had Chris Carter created it.
 
 
penitentvandal
20:17 / 21.11.06
See, I would have more faith in the Torchwood = Buffy hypothesis if the Torchwood team displayed any of the knowing irony of the scooby gang. Episode before this, we had an entire episode in which Jack threw around the phrase 'Chosen One' like kleenex at a wank-a-thon and nobody, but nobody, called him on the cheesiness of it. In Buffy, that would never have happened: the only guys using the phrase 'Chosen One' of an Episode Plot McGuffin would have been Spike and Xander, both sarcastically, and Giles, apologising because he couldn't come up with a less cheesy term.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:22 / 21.11.06
I'd really like a moratorium on "the Chosen One" in all TV and popular cinema for the next 10 years.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:59 / 21.11.06
Even if someone's buying a pair of trousers, and it's a really tough decision, and then they're really happy because they've...



I'll get me coat.

(Actually, that would be a shit scene for Torchwood anyway).
 
 
penitentvandal
21:03 / 21.11.06
It would wind up being about how Jack's trousers are gay. You know it.
 
  

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