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Torchwood- Season One Discussion (As It Happens) SPOILERS

 
  

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Whisky Priestess
10:09 / 15.12.06
I think who cares has already answered your question, Haus, upthread. For reference:

Haus said: So, if you feel like adding more content here, what did you think of "Random Shoes", the latest episode of "Torchwood"?

who cares said:
I continue to be shocked as how poorly assembled the series is from a production point of view. It's almost as if the crew had never made television before. At this point I'm watching for the unintentional comedy (and so are several other posters, it seems). The latest episode hasn't changed these views.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:38 / 15.12.06
Rather my point, WP. One could very easily make such a statement without actually having seen the episode. There is no reference to anything that happens in the episode, nor to any performance by any actor in the episode. File under gainsaying, really.

However, in the absence of another moderator - this thread is becoming cancerous. The options - start a new thread in F,TV & T about homosexual relationships in text, subtext and extratext in Buffy and Angel, or start a thread in Conversation about whatever takes one's fancy. This thread is supposed to be discussing Torchwood, or at least to have some tangential relationship to discussion of the first season of Torchwood.

So. I'm currently watching Battlestar Galactica, season 2, and I'm afraid that it is pushing Torchwood into rather sharp relief. Specifically, it is pushing two things that Torchwood doesn't have nailed - continuity and audience. Admittedly, it also has about seven zillion times the budget and is not stuck in Cardiff. But. Continuity and audience are not things you need vast budgets for - just time and care, and ability. BSG seems actually adult - an adult soap opera, but adult - and Doctor Who was for want of a better term universal, and Torchwood seems to have become quite lumpy in the space between this; characters' motivations are childish, but then they stop for some disconcerting dirty talk. There's a lack of stride there.

Continuity is continuity of characters, but also continuity of style - one goes from Scooby Doo to Ghostwatch, at times so quickly as to cause decompression sickness. At the start of "They Keep Killing Susie", as the car hurtled up and the team got out in slow-mo, a fellow viewer observed that the whole scene was cheese on toast, but was what ze wanted from the show - a kind of glossy, sexy Doctor Who, rather than a mishmash of kitchen sink, lipgloss and Star Cops. However, I'm still cautiously optimistic - before this episode, a degree of range seemed to be being found, and this one was itself savable, although really it's just frickin' Storyteller again. A tighter script, better acting, more _observation_ of the gang and fewer abandonment issues might have helped enormously.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:36 / 15.12.06
I'm finding Justice League Unlimited more fun to watch at the moment, although admittedly it's partly for the 'spot the voice' value (Gina Torres and Nathan Fillion in the same episode, eeee!).

I've been reading tachyontv's reviews of the show and seen some people really hating episodes that I like, or vice versa, no surprise there. I wonder though about the feedback nature of like and dislike on shows I watch, now I like pretty much all of season two of Who for example (except thinking the first episode to be weak and Fear Her to still be dire) but at the time I was a lot more critical. I like the clockwork robots episode now whereas I didn't back then.

So I'm curious as to whether people who would say they liked the Invisible Eugene/Random Shoes episode would say that on the whole they've enjoyed more than disliked the series, and what people who would say they disliked the episode would say of the series in general. I'm wondering how much our feelings going into an experience colour how critical we tend to be afterwards.
 
 
some guy
15:57 / 15.12.06
I'm wondering how much our feelings going into an experience colour how critical we tend to be afterwards.

Quite a bit, I reckon. I'm finding that to be an issue with BSG at the moment; the last two half seasons haven't matched my expectations based on the strengths of the first pair. We've seen in this thread how some viewers' reactions to Torchwood are influenced by its disconnect to the version we were promised by the BBC PR machine. I think if the series had been trailed as camp escapism some of us might be much more forgiving and spending our time enjoying Torchwood drinking games rather than being frustrated at its many shortcomings as drama.

Your reappraisal of The Girl in the Fireplace suggests that we can sometimes come to appreciate a text for what it is rather than what we wanted it to be. I haven't found this to be the case with the repeat viewings I gave Torchwood's first two episodes, so there's probably a mixture of "overselling" and "not actually good after all" happening there for me.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:05 / 15.12.06
Quite. At the time I was one of those 'old school fans' that RTD and Moffat referred to sniffily who wouldn't like the idea of the Doctor falling in love. However, in the context of the series and the plot of the Doctor and emotions it works very well.

There's no clear emotional through-line for Torchwood. I suspect that this is because it is 'too adult' for that kind of nonsense. Maybe the last few episodes will try to impose something on the series (presumably based around Jack and his collection of Super Mario Mushrooms that make him invincible) which will make invisible Eugene less cringingly awful.
 
 
Mouse
21:13 / 15.12.06
From the looks of things it's too pureile, not too adult, for that sort of nonsense.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:50 / 16.12.06
Yes, that's rather what I meant.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:34 / 16.12.06
What the hell is it with the stopwatch kink?
 
 
Mouse
15:11 / 16.12.06
oh . . . kay.

I stopped watching TW a few episodes back, so that's the first time I've seen that snippet. Good grief, what the hell was all that about? (no need to answer)
 
 
Alex's Grandma
17:13 / 16.12.06
This has been a show that I've watched from behind the sofa for the most part, driven back there out of sheer despair but that actually seems like an interesting storyline - the Ianto/Jack/whatever Ianto's girlfriend what Jack killed stone dead was called, love triangle should really have been what the series was all about.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:13 / 17.12.06
Hmmm, 15 minutes so far and it's actually looking interesting...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:52 / 17.12.06
Now that was a pretty good episode. If the rest of them hadn't been so bad I might not find Owen Harper's gradual transformation into a hopeless romantic quite so cringingly awful but I found Jack's sitting in the car with the old guy quite moving, although aren't cars supposed to have catalytic converters now to stop this sort of thing?

The only drawback to the episode is that to work it assumes that we care a lot more about the central cast more than they've earned thus far, but otherwise it was nicely acted. But once again Ianto has little to do and Tosh even less, too big a cast?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:14 / 17.12.06
I thought I'd never watch this show again, but caught it after The Real Christmas Hustle and thought it surprisingly OK. I could have done without the lizardy sex scenes in a lit room with floor-to-ceiling windows in front of Cardiff Bay, and the Back to the Future stuff about folk from the past enthusing over DVDs and colour telly could have been less obvious; but there were some quite touching moments. The final shot, showing John Barrowman in close-up actually looking around forty years old, drained and imperfect and unglam, was really striking. It was an incredibly unflattering shot, but very interesting.

I really don't think nostalgic flashback montages of something that happened between two and twenty minutes ago within the same episode are ever a very good idea.
 
 
sleazenation
21:35 / 17.12.06
I liked the concept, and some of the scenes, particularly the Jack strand, but this died on the screen for me. Maybe I've been spoiled for this kind of story - I've seen it done before, and in a manner that was more effective for me, in a variety of comics. However I have a sneaking suspicion that, for my money, Torchwood has created a rod for its own back in terms of its characterisation. Owen in particular is irredeemable to me. Even in fast-forward, his scenes go on too long.

It was vaguely amusing that in Cardiff going to London is seen as roughly analagous to death...

And did I miss something? Was it explained why pilot woman was happy to fly off in search of timeholes without her companions (and even went so far as to claim that she only flew solo)?

For that matter, is it currently more prohibited to smoke in a pub in Cardiff, than it is in a restaurant, as pilot woman did on her date?
 
 
Triplets
00:22 / 18.12.06
Was it explained why pilot woman was happy to fly off in search of timeholes without her companions

Nope. Instead she leaves because it seemed the writers wanted to create a poignant the-three-pasties are leaving tryptych. Boring.

Whereas I wouldn't have minded seeing 3 different ways of dealing with ending up in the future. Suicide, assimilation aaaandd have Edith join the Torchwood team as their resident pulp, proto-feminist pistol-toting flygirl. Oh god yes.

Fanwank attack!

Maybe she'll end up with the Doctor?

End fanwank attack!

Some nice bits with Gwen and her boyfriend and guilt over Owen and the job lies.

Enjoyed it overall. Edith was top but then I love strong-jawed strong women. Owen was much less of a twat this time round too.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:44 / 18.12.06
Well, all three of them were happy to go off on their own without thinking about the others weren't they?

I'm interested in why Sleaze believes Owen is 'irredemable' as it now seems that we can trace something approaching a plot arc for his character, from the guy who uses the sexual attraction virus on himself in episode one to the man pleading with the woman not to leave in this episode.

And it was nice to see that someone remembered that Gwen had a boyfriend, although the very awkward not mentioning of Gwen and Owen having a relationship was stupid. I also assume that Gwen's boyfriend checking up with Gwen's Mum on her story was there to lead to next week's climax of the triangle between the three characters.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:35 / 18.12.06
Also, Jack is immortal in that he dies and comes back to lie ~ not that he doesn't die, right? So he would surely have asphyxiated in the car, and then come back, rather than just breathing it in and having it wipe his foundation off.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:49 / 18.12.06
I'm not sure there are hard and fast rules on how Jack's immortality works - it seems to be about adaptation - if he is shot in the head, the tissue damage is then repaired. If he is electrocuted, his heart is restarted. So, if he is inhaling carbon monoxide, the damage to his brain caused by lack of oxygen could possibly be being repaired constantly.

I think one problem with Owen is that the thought of him rubbing parts is rather akin to the thought of a slug crawling all over one's face. He does appear to be becoming more humanised, but we do get back to the amateur hour problem. He is still reacting to a woman who has had a terrible shock and is in the care of Torchwood by introducing Mr Winky to her. Likewise, I can't shake the feeling that it might have been an idea to give the others a bit of time to acclimatise and maybe some counselling before letting them go to London and Avernus respectively.

However, barring a strange fascinating with showing us Owen's chest, I liked this episode as quiet, sweet and rather sad. Ianto was underused but adorable - he's rapidly reasserting himself as my favourite character after Susie, on the grounds that Cyberwoman never happened. It felt a bit like it didn't get started, and I would have liked to have understood the pilot a bit better - I mean, I can understand why sleeping with Owen would make you want to fly through a dimensional rift, but I suspect that isn't what's intended.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
08:21 / 18.12.06
The coming-back-to-life thing, as we have seen it so far, is nigh-on instantaneous - although to be fair IIRC Jack has only suffered swift and violent forms of death (bullet in the head, electrocution, etc.)

A slow, non-violent form of death such as asphyxiation might not even kill him, I'm thinking, as his immortality seems to take the form of an incredibly accelerated healing factor, meaning that as fast as the CO2 entered his system, his magic midichlorians or whatever could flush it out, so he doesn't even have to die to come back to life. If you see what I mean.

By far the best scene of what I think was one of the standout episodes so far was Jack and Welshman in the car, which I thought was very well done and very moving. I have a frustrating habit of missing the first two minutes of episodes meaning that I don't see the episode name, writer's name, or the opening scenes, which is really annoying, and means I don't know who wrote this one (anyone? Bueller?)

Anyway, I really enjoyed this ep, whatever it was called, and I only have a few weeny beefs (beeves?) with it, which are as follows:

1) Owen, however you light him and write him, is still not sexy. Please, please take note.

2) The (mentioned upthread) convenient amnesia re Gwen and Owen's relationship. What's frustrating about this was that it could have been fixed very easily in about thirty seconds of screen time - all we needed was Gwen seeing Owen and Diane in a clinch and then her otherwise rather over-the-top "all men are rapists/bastards" speech to Edith might have made a bit more sense, especially if she was smarting from Owen's betrayal (of her and of Torchwood's trust by banging someone under his care).

3) Who introduces themselves as "Doctor Owen Harper", especially when they are already wearing a white coat? A wanker, that's who.

4) Tosh? Ianto? Where? Why didn't it bother me when this sort of thing happened in Buffy? Perhaps because there was a better ensemble cast, and they actually did give the impression that they worked together?

5) Not much actual Torchwooding in the Torchwood base, more like an episode about what Jack/Gwen/Owen got up to at the weekend. As Jack says - "there's no mystery to solve, no enemy to fight - just three lost people to take care of" (or summat along those lines).

But to reiterate, I really liked it as an episode. I wish all of them were as good.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
08:26 / 18.12.06
Ooh, jinx!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:38 / 18.12.06
The (mentioned upthread) convenient amnesia re Gwen and Owen's relationship.

Hmmm... undercurrents - the bit from Rhys about how easy Gwen seems to find telling fibs, for example.

However, next issue we have Rhys/Owen fight - which due to the inexplicable writercrush on Owen he will win and win in a way that doesn't alienate him from Gwen beyond the episode finish. We also have weevils (finally) and mention of the darkness gathering, which I really did think was just going to be a gothtacular, impressive-sounding throwaway. After a rather startling amount of disjunction between episodes, are we finally getting some of these plot strands gathered?
 
 
Whisky Priestess
09:49 / 18.12.06
I do so very hope so.

By the way, the writer of this recent episode (variously called "Time Flies" and "Out of Time") is Catherine Tregenna, which augurs well for Episode 12, "Captain Jack Harkness", which is also written by her. Bring it on ...
 
 
■
09:59 / 18.12.06
I'm going to sneak in here and quietly say "Yup", they suddenly seem to have remembered character and plot development.
I also have to note that I was expecting the words "smoke me a kipper I'll be back for breakfast" to drift from the departing plane for some reason.
 
 
The Strobe
13:34 / 18.12.06
I enjoyed it rather a lot - I think Haus' description tallies well with mine. Despite the general character-arc-amnesia the show suffers from, I thought it did well at being an ensemble piece that managed to do something with Owen, keep Gwen roughly on her usual arc (and humanise her as the "outsider" from Torchwood), and actually characterise Jack as something other than the guy who runs around barking orders.

Given that, I think a Jack-episode by the same writer could be something to look forward to. I did find the "next time" teaser a bit depressing after that episode, though.

One weird synchronicity - I did find it hard to watch given that I'm currently also watching This Life, and the guy-in-the-car also played Dale, Warren's brother. Crossovertastic.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:11 / 19.12.06
Yes, the downside to 'character cheating on her partner' storylines is the inevitable 'partner finds out' scenes which are rarely dramatically interesting, except possibly the Xander/Willow/Oz/Cordelia thingumy in season three of Buffy. Based on the previous form this show has I expect that to sit like the huge stinking turd in next Sunday's show.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
09:52 / 19.12.06
Especially considering that viewers by now will probably hate one and be entirely indifferent towards the other, it's not exactly ripe with dramatic possibilities.
 
 
Lama glama
11:45 / 19.12.06
Unless a Weevil bursts in at that exact moment, kidnaps (a possibly naked at the time) Rhys and forces him to engage in combat with (an undoubtedly shirtless) Owen for Gwen's love in the thunderdrome, deep beneath Cardiff bay.

By Noel Clarke.
 
 
Feverfew
18:20 / 19.12.06
So I'd be the only one who was really irritated by the last episode, then?

I get the horrible feeling I missed the point, because, for me, there didn't seem to be a point to this episode, other than "Look, Torchwood can do humanistic and serious and try to help three people from the fifties, and it's not like that Star Trek TNG episode with the three people from the 20th century, no, sirree."

I'm being unduly harsh. Perhaps it was a good thing that the episode just took us straight into "Look, weirdness is afoot, landing with this plane" and ran with it from thereon in. The supermarket scene was a joke basket, and I agree with the majority opinion on the garage scene... But I was half expecting Owen, post-coitally, to look deep into her eyes and say something along the lines of

"I have been on this tiny earth now a long time, but never before have I felt this... What is this feeling you humans call... 'Love'?"

before ripping off his skin to show that he is in fact an alien from the planet Sex, here to procreate amongst the people of Cardiff, and to keep tabs on Captain Jack, who is in fact his uncle-fifty-six-times-removed from two hundred years in the future.

But I digress.

(I just don't like Owen.)

Every single episode so far seems to have something I can look at it and charitably say "Oh, that's a homáge to"; if I see the foursome-slowly-walking-down the street shot again, I fully expect Owen to jump over a box a lá Spike from the Boxer Rebellion flashbacks over on Buffy/Angel.

And for some reason I'm thinking next week has an odd Fight Club vibe with some sort of Tyler-Durdenesque character unleashing a weevil on the populace. Maybe he wants to remove them from their emic reality tunnels, maybe not...

I keep wanting to like Torchwood. I keep watching it and seeing very little, very occasional flashes of likeable things. But a whole episode rarely stands up to any scrutiny or criticism, and that's disappointing.

But, still, I return, hoping to be surprised. Which possibly makes me the fool, rather than thw show. Possibly.

The odd thing is that the cast aren't amateurs by any particular stretch of the imagination. Naoko Mori is pretty much old-school BBC, having been in Casualty, Bugs, Judge John Deed, Spooks, Manchild, Absolutely Fabulous...

Burn Gorman, AKA Owen, is just as Terrestrial-TV, with Bleak House and Dalziel and Pascoe, but I'm going to have to rewatch Layer Cake sometime soon and look out for him.

In terms of listed castings, Eve Myles has possibly the shortest CV, but she has experience behind her too.

Not forgetting that John Barrowman was the host of Live and Kicking for around a year. (Plus he's done a hell of a lot of other stuff).

So... It's shouldn't be the actors. It probably shouldn't even be the writers, who aren't rookies either.

So why does Torchwood so rarely come together?

Last point; I just wish they'd replace the "Torchwood" voiceover at the start. I can't be doing with this "Above the Police, beyond the Government" lark, because, as previously mentioned many times, everyone seems to know who they are. So why not replace the opening lines with "Torchwood. We're re-e-eally secret, like. Ssh! Don't tell anyone!"
 
 
Mouse
19:54 / 19.12.06
Or:

"Torchwood: We kiss things"
 
 
Ganesh
20:09 / 19.12.06
Or:

"Torchwood. If you're really lucky, we won't make it worse."
 
 
Twice
21:13 / 19.12.06
Plus he's done a hell of a lot of other stuff

I think he's singing Christmas Showstoppers on Radio 2 on Friday night. Maybe with the Swingle Singers.
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:05 / 20.12.06
You know, if one ignores things like "previous episodes" and "ongoing character arcs" Out of Time was actually pretty entertaining telly. I still had to supress a shudder any time Owen gets within 10ft of, well, anything with a pulse though.

Although there was still an ongoing element of Torchwood = Amateur Hour (letting them wander off by themselves, taking them to nightclubs and then basically ditching them on the dancefloor where any OwenClone can pounce, leaving any female alone with Owen for any length of time at all), I thought generally the team actually came across as much nicer and better co-ordinated than they have previously.

The Jack/John storyline was the best of the three. I felt it hammered home the massive sense of isolation that anyone time-displaced would feel. The scene with John's son was, I felt, a genuinely emotional moment. I did like that John picks up on the fact that Jack's not from this era too.

The Gwen/Emma storyline was nicely-handled too (although you would have though Gwen might have thought to explain to Emma that her boyfriend was unaware of her Torchwood duties before bringing her home). In part it was that this plot actually involved developing the Gwen/Rhys relationship in some way. But also that Emma, who starts off practically denying that they've jaunted through time, ends up being the one who assimilates the best.

Although someone should have warned her about London's high invasion rate over the last three or four decades.

Owen and Diane's relationship could have been good if it weren't for the fact that Owen is such a creepy oily little bastard, and the last thing I ever want to see again on my t.v. is Mr Rohypnol on the vinegar strokes. If I thought that, next week, he'd be shown to have altered his prickish behaviour then I might concede this was okay too. But I have little faith that there'll be any significant character development.

Also, Ianto being superbutlerspy again was good. Perhaps Jack pulled an Identity Crisis on him and wiped his mind of his toastergirl's unfortunate demise.

Next week: Is it wrong for me to want to see Rhys righteously deliver an old-testament style beating to Owen? Not in that "win back m'girlfriend" way, just to see anyone kick seven shades of poo out of Owen's smug badly constructed face.
 
 
Ganesh
10:34 / 20.12.06
Mr Rohypnol

That's Dr Rohypnol to you. I'm assuming Torchwood is also outwith the jurisdiction of the General Medical Council, since the good doctor seems to a) see few if any actual patients ever, b) piss on any sort of medical confidentiality, c) randomly assign post-mortem examinations to ex-policewomen and d) have no comprehension/appreciation of professional/sexual boundaries whatsoever. Yet he's still being paid enough to afford a reptilian shagpad in Manhattan-on-Cardiff-Bay.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:51 / 20.12.06
He _must_ have been struck off, surely? And that's why he's AT Torchwood, where presumably he doesn't have to operate on the living and an inability to understand boundaries (doctor/patient, employee/employer, captive/interrogator, living/dead) is considered de rigeur, and quite possibly rigor? Otherwise, it makes no sense. I mean, it already makes no sense that he is the doctor, when Tosh was first seen about to perform an autopsy in Doctor Who, but never mind that.

I'm increasingly thinking that Susie, who is canonically good at everything, was basically carrying Torchwood Cardiff, the employees of which she had chosen to create a collegial working atmosphere rather than in the expectation that they would do anything themselves. So, Owen is like a water feature or a decorative fern (Gorman).
 
 
Ganesh
11:02 / 20.12.06
On that note, why does Ianto wear a suit? I can't imagine this dress standard (or indeed any sort of standard) was imposed upon him by Torchwood. He must just like suits.
 
  

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