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Torchwood- Season One Discussion (As It Happens) SPOILERS

 
  

Page: 12345(6)7891011... 19

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:48 / 05.11.06
My best guess is that Jack felt it was important for Ianto to get closure, and that if he was unable to do this (by killing Cybermiss, or at least having a good look at her pterodactyl-savaged corpse), and that an Ianto who was unable to recommit to the Torchwood project might as well be Byrne choked to death by a metal lady.

Why you'd want somebody who had just punched you in the face and declared that he was going to want you suffer and die back ordering the pizza is another question.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
07:43 / 06.11.06
Was there any particularly good reason why the Cyberman didn't just d-e-l-e-t-e the pterodactyl and get on with upgrading the world? I'm pretty much with Wonderstarr; the whole thing is hugely inconsistent / incompetent, and seemingly getting more so with each episode. Next week they'll have Alien Ray Blasters to shoot at some monstrosity; the week after they'll be back to toothpicks, but they'll just happen to have a pocket volcano which is just right for whatever job needs doing. They've probably got Q locked up in the basement next to the Weevils.
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:18 / 06.11.06
It's apparently is a Torchwood mission statement that Gwen gets off with at least one other team member per episode. Bit pissed off that her boyfriend was only used this week to underline the banality of life outside of Torchwood. He's watching Wife Swap whilst Gwen's battling cyborgs and swapping spit with any team member who gets within distance. The cliched break-up because "He can't understand the things I've seen! Not like yooooou Jack." can only be mere episodes away.

Ianto's first real character development makes him look whiney, amoral, and possibly mentally unbalanced. So much for him being the totally professional super-spy/butler. Now it's just a matter of waiting for the inevitable betrayal.

I did like Jack's speech on Cybermen, which sounds like he was drawing from past encounters or future-history with the Mondasian Cybermen (or he'd just watched First Contact recently).

Other than that. Brainless, impulse-zone runaround of an episode. Like a game of Laser Quest with added "sexy" Cyber-gal. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more sexy cyber-gals on the telly, but it sort of destroys the monoculture horror of the Cybermen when they ensure their convertees have "Sexy Cybus Industries Cyber-Breasts TM" and "Sexy Cybus Industries Cyber-Ass TM".

Next week, wannabe Krillitanes invade Gwen's life?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
08:51 / 06.11.06
Yeah, what was up with a Cyberman having breasts halfway through the process? The whole visual was stolen from Metropolis and Barbarella, plus Darth Vader circa A New Hope when she raised humans in the air one-handed to choke them.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:15 / 06.11.06
Byrne choke!

This was actually addressed, albeit in a rather addle-pated way. Ianto explains that towards the end of the battle for Canary Wharf, if being utterly pwn3d counts as a battle, the Cybermen no longer had time to upgrade people completely, and instead just whacked cyber-enhancements onto human bodies to create cannon fodder. Presumably she would have been fully armoured-up if the process had completed, but still human underneath, pending a proper upgrade at some point in the future. How it was quicker to retool the conversion chambers completely is another question - at a guess, they're programmed in Ruby.
 
 
■
11:52 / 06.11.06
Notice also the painful continuity kludge where he mentions her enhancements are made from human technology, because if they weren't we'd all be asking: "so why wasn't she sucked into the void?"
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:25 / 06.11.06
Oh yes - good point. So, yes, the Cybermen took time out to retool human technology (there not _being_ any human technology designed to convert people into Cybermen)... which maybe, sort of makes sense, if they had had to put something together at a flat run with local components, but it does make you wonder what they mean by human technology. Who-Earth metals? I quite like the idea of not-as-good cybermen cobbled together out of human materials trying to upgrade themselves and humanity without knowing how - I just wish that this episode had made a bit more sense and had had about ten minutes less running around the actually-not-that-big Torchwood base, popping up through the ceiling and then sprinting round the front, and the incredibly quick brain transplant. And I just don't believe you could do something like that and be allowed, much less expected, to turn up for work the next day. Owen's character arc seems to be on a bit of a slow burn with the realising he's a cock, as well...

I also hope the Pterosaur's all right. Hey, maybe you can only delete human tissue? Or maybe she had used up her delete-o-power on Captain Jack? I know, fanwank until proven otherwise. I did still, however, enjoy this one more than 3 - it was loud and incoherent, but at least it was pacey and they were up against a Cyberman, and not an elderly Welsh agoraphobe.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
15:20 / 06.11.06
So, snogging Ianto - kiss of life or mystically imbuing him with mystical can't-die Jack energy, a la when he snogged the sex-hungry alien in teen's body in Ep 2?

Or just opportunism?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:58 / 06.11.06
One of the first two, I think, although to be honest if Captain Jack is a) immortal and b) able to bring people back to life by kissing them, it makes it even more annoying that Susie went to the wall over a glove that did what Jack does, but in a much more limited way.

So, fanwank - either a) what happened in "Sex Gas" was that the alien actually killed Captain Jack Scarlet when he kissed her - pulled out his life energy, which was immediately replenished - and he was giving Ianto CPR in this episode or b) in both cases he was giving them a "jolt" of his life energy, which is not enough to revive a dead person but is enough to pull someone who is in a bad way back from the edge - like Ianto. Or c) he can actually bring people back from the dead (and that may or may not have communicated to the glove), which is thematically not impossible - the Tardis did it to him, after all - but doesn't want to tell anyone. And either cannot heal trauma like Susie's, or wasn't prepared to blow his cover by doing it in front of a witness. Having said which, you get into problems, dramatically, when one character is a) immortal and b) able to bring any of the other characters back to life. Let alone c) really quite evil.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
16:00 / 06.11.06
Also, clunky writing here:

Gwen: For a moment there, I really thought you could die.

Jack: Wanna know a secret? Me too. It made me feel so aliiiiiive.*

Talk about emotional exposition. Thought it would have been much better if he'd said "hell of a rush" or "I don't know how you do it" (bit of a Doctorism, that) or anything else, really, that indicated he got a life-affirming thrill from his brush with death (sort of) apart from how it made him feel so aliiiiiive. On-the-fucking-nose dialogue, gets me every time.

*Almost as alive as standing on a roof, presumably
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:15 / 06.11.06
Having said which, you get into problems, dramatically, when one character is a) immortal

We call this Captain Scarlet Syndrome. I believe it's also known as what's the fucking point of watching it, then?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:21 / 06.11.06
Well - you say that, but do you really tune into Doctor Who in the expectation that he'll die? Formally, he's only likely to do it at the end of a story/series, because that's what he's contracted to do. And there's at least a mechanism where Doctor W. _can_ die; compare with, say, Seth Bullock or Tony Soprano or Jack from Lost. It's _possible_ that they'll be killed off, but it's very unlikely indeed, and those are relatively formally adventurous shows. Go down to something like Ultraviolet - for all the sense of menace and doom, the protagonists consistently escaped death in such a way that they were de facto immortal...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:34 / 06.11.06
There's more to Doctor Who than just a main character who can't die, though. That series gets away with its lead's immortality because that's only a small part of its overall premise. The rest of it provides the room for the unexpected that the title character can't - you've got a guy who can travel to any point in space at any point in time, you've given yourself a series with limitless possibilities and a reason for the audience to tune in each week. You never know what's going to happen next.

Torchwood doesn't have the expanse of limitless possibilities that Who has (or had, before they decided that budget cuts meant they'd have to have every storyline set on Earth). As the audience, we know more or less exactly what we're getting next week - something about aliens or alien technology, situated in Cardiff and more likely than not knocking off another recent SF series wholesale. They don't even have the room for the fantastic that Who has, because one of the many misjudgements that the series creators have made is to believe that 'adult' has to mean 'based in a recognisable reality'. Now, Who's clearly been going that way too under RTD's direction, which is a great shame, but it's not as tied down to having to be set in situations and places that its audience will recognise from their own experiences because it remains a kids' show at heart, with all of the room for the fantastical that that definition allows.

The biggest problem that Torchwood has - or one of them, at any rate - is that it's planted its flag pretty firmly in 'adventure serial' soil. There's not a huge amount more to it than that and it doesn't seem like there was ever any intention to have it be anything else. Any sense of adventure or excitement is going to take a massive knock if you let the audience know, right from the off, that the main character can't die and can't be harmed in any significant physical way. You can regain some of that if you've got a cast of supporting characters who are likable and the audience care about, but Torchwood is failing pretty miserably there. I know it's probably unfair to be making this judgement when we're only three or four episodes in, but your audience is only going to let you get away with a cast made up of cartoons for so long before they drift away.

Jack's sole purpose in life - and, in effect, the dramatic hook of teh series - appears to be to find the Doctor. That's not enough to hang an entire series on, not when that relationship was so brief and superficial anyway.

Maybe Gwen's supposed to be the main character here, but if so I'm not feeling it. She's just so bloody ordinary - nice enough, but dull enough that I don't really care what happens to her. And as for the others... well, why would I? The focus of the series is fucked - they're writing it with each week's science/alien being the most important thing and any character development being, at best, a secondary concern. The best SF TV gets this the right way around. The *other* way around.

An immortal main charater doesn't have to be a problem for a series, but on top of all of the other problems Torchwood has it's just making the whole thing topple over.

(With something like Sopranos, no, I'd not have been all that shocked if they'd killed Tony off at some point if it was a natural progression for the characters and interlocking storylines.)
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
17:40 / 06.11.06
There's a (short) thread over in Books on the whole immortality rap here. I didn't mind the exposition bit, thought it was fair enough, as a character Jack seems to speak his mind, so it didn't jar, and as a point, yeah: if you can't die - if you yourself are suffering from Captain Scarlet syndrome - what's the point of anything? Apart from the opportunity to constantly flip from The Loneliness Of Command to snogging your co-workers, that is. Subtract someone's physical needs and you end up with a character of pure emotional need and whim, which he's pretty much got spot on.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:51 / 06.11.06
I really enjoyed that. But then I like Captain Scarlet too.
 
 
Lama glama
20:27 / 06.11.06
The Register has a feature up that's fairly accurate about Torchwood's problems.

Best bit:

Doctor Owen Harper. I'm a weasel-faced would-be rapist and self-described twat. By dint of great effort, I have made myself even less sympathetic and more unlikeable than the other characters.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:38 / 06.11.06
I have to admit that I'm a little baffled as to why nobody seems to like this show as much as I do. The last episode in particular queasy combined sickening violence, emotional trauma and body horror with almost slapstick comedy - it was like Ianto, He Is Here To Help or something. That moment when the pizza girl reappears with her skull stitched back together - shudders abounded...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:23 / 06.11.06
Personally, I love it. It's good, silly, messy fun. Which is kind of what I'd been led to expect by all the advertising in the first place. I'm not sure what anyone else ordered, but they got my toppings pretty much bang on.
 
 
Triplets
00:14 / 07.11.06
You never know what's going to happen next.

Except that he won't, y'know, kick it. Captain Crunch Harkness is twisting that cliche/genre staple by stating it outright and turning it into a part of the character. Move past the not-dying and find drama further along.

ex: Superman never loses (permanently). Morrison turned All-Star Superman into All-Star AlwaysWinsMan and is finding great stuff to work with.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:40 / 07.11.06
Which is kind of what I'd been led to expect by all the advertising in the first place. I'm not sure what anyone else ordered, but they got my toppings pretty much bang on.

It's funny how this (from my perspective) counter-argument came up with Seven Soldiers last week, too. I was disappointed by that and felt that in some way it "failed". More than one person, I think, replied along the lines of "you were expecting the wrong thing".

The advertising posters, surely, showed Harkness in a Jack Bauer two-handed pistolgrip pose, in front of the (?) Assembly Rooms. The trailers were a fast-moving montage of science-ficton action, ending with an introduction of the team members (as they were) and a bit about Torchwood being outside normal structures.

That didn't lead me to expect a kids' telly adventure with added bollocks. They didn't communicate anything "zany", which I think is one of the show's problems ~ its inconsistency of tone. (Ironically, another seems to be its consistency and claustrophobia ~ it's all going to be about aliens in Cardiff, and running around that set).
 
 
penitentvandal
09:27 / 07.11.06
I know it's probably unfair to be making this judgement when we're only three or four episodes in

Although it's worth considering that I think by ep.4 of both series of Who we had some seriously big episodes - Aliens of London, and the first installment of the Cyberman saga, IIRC.

I've formed a theory about Torchwood. I think, post-Battle of Canary Wharf, there's obviously been some kind of big shake-up behind the scenes in the organisation. Think about it: it was a massive government agency with tons of personnel and a mission statement to protect, specifically, Britain against alien threats. Now, however, it seems to be based more on a cell structure, with members working outside the government, apparently no effective supervision or concerns about procedure, and a focus on gathering alien technology to protect humanity from...something or other.

Here's what I think happened. Post-Battle, Torchwood is acquired by van Statten. We know the Battle of Canary Wharf happens before the events in 'Dalek', so in theory he's still out there. The ground-level members, like Jack and his crew, are allowed to get away with murder, literally, because van Statten in't bothered about procedure, only results. He doesn't care if they're drug-rapists, alcoholics, cyber-philes and immortal PTSD cases: all he cares about is that they get the alien shinies. Probably the membership still thinks they have about the same mission as before - the new ownership would probably only be known to higher-ups in the organisation. Maybe there is one member of each cell who's in on it - possibly Ianto, which would explain why they can't fire him. And maybe why he's so confident of one day being in a position where he can watch Jack suffer and die.

That there has to have been some change in oversight is strongly implied by the fact that, in 'The Christmas Invasion', the 'Wood defers to a command to attack the Sycorax given by the British PM, suggesting they respect her authoritah. By the time of Torchwood ep.1, however, Jack is gleefully giving out with the 'outside the government' line. Of course, there is the problem that by the time of 'Dalek', van Statten apparently still doesn't know what a Dalek is, despite the fact that CNN must have had footage of them swarming all over the Wharf, but the battle was confused and I suppose it's possible that the names of the Daleks must not have came out. Obviously Jack knows what they're called but even if van Statten was to take Jack into his confidence, y'know, Snafu principle. Jack's the help, if the boss man wants to call the aliens Metaltrons than bah gahd, that's what they are.

Obviously this would depend on a sensible approach to past continuity and a series that would actually bother to explain the logical inconsistencies in Torchwood 2.0's structure, of course, and I'm not sure that's what we're going to get. It's probably more likely that come episode 6 we'll discover that Toshiko's a frakkin' Cylon at this rate...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
09:37 / 07.11.06
I don't think the fact that Torchwood needs so much fan-wank for it to make any sense, after only four episodes, is a good sign. Again, echoes of the discussion around Seven Soldiers, about how much generous effort the reader/viewer should be required to put in, in order to join the dots and produce a meaningful fiction.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:46 / 07.11.06
That's actually a very interesting idea - one of the threads that _could_ be explored is certainly the idea that whoever _is_ in charge of Torchwood - and the budget and army-trumping credentials still have to come from somewhere - has aims which are at odds with, and indeed very little respect for the personal safety or regulation of, the messed-up remnants of the original Torchwood - Ianto is clearly a former employee of Torchwood One, it makes sense if Toshiko is as well, Owen is apparently from London - in the pursuit of alien technology. the other option is that Jack is actually behind all of this, either since the loss of Torchwood One or before, although if he were also behind Torchwood in the Torchwood One days the continuity would make my head explode.

Again, this is something which would be interesting to explore, but they are going to have to get the arc moving a bit - the episodes so far have gone - Gwen/Jack, Gwen, Owen/Jack, Ianto, and I'm still a bit lost on why I should care about Owen and Toshiko (and indeed why Ianto and Gwen are profitable employees). What were we up to on DW? "Aliens of London"? Smaller cast, but I had a much better handle on them. Ultraviolet was deep into its arc (although admittedly also much deeper into its run), and had done it while making me care about the ensemble.

I genuinely think ten minutes less running an episode, with the time split between setting up arcs, developing characters and more chilled-out interaction between the characters, and a bit more familiarisation of the _actors_ with their characters would make this a much better programme. As it is, I thought 1 was good, 2 and 2 had their moments and 4 was evocative, possibly, of better things, especially if it leads to an explanation of why a team 65% or so of the active membership of which have so far attempted or succeeded in causing the unlawful killing of civilians is being kept together.
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:56 / 07.11.06
Well the timeline is probably a little screwy as the Daleks who attacked Canary Wharf had previously been hanging around outside of time/space in the Void (which explains why they weren't incinerated along with the majority of their forces at Gallifray or by Rose in the deep future. All their entering the context at this point probably means is that Van Statten now knows his prisoner is a member of an alien race which attacked Earth previously but not much else.

I think that the various Torchwoods (except for 4 which is aiding the Minbari against the Shadows) are effectively running off the leash without the constraining influence of the uberpatriots at T1. Jack's group is "arming tomorrow", but the other branches may have their own agendas.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
10:11 / 07.11.06
What's 65% of five people, out of interest? Or does Jack count more than once?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:31 / 07.11.06
I was counting Susie.

Susie - kills people (and Jack)
Ianto - gets two people (and Jack) killed
Gwen - kills Blake
Owen - aims to kill Blake
Hitoshi - hasn't yet had enough development time to kill anything except the line "I'm matching the face with CCTV records"
Jack - More killed against than killing. Does threaten to kill Ianto, though.

Counting Owen as an attempt, that's 4 out of 6, or roughly 65 per cent - 66.6 bar, if you'd rather.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
11:18 / 07.11.06
Thanking you.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:22 / 07.11.06
Gwen - kills Blake

Arguably he kills himself with a knife she's holding, but tomato/tomato I guess.

Next week on Torchwood: Tosh turns out to be using alien guns to unleash a Punisher-style campaign of terror on Cardiff fishmongers because she's feeling left out of the murder stakes.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:59 / 07.11.06
I'd like to see more of Tosh - in part to find out how a woman last seen about to perform an autopsy on an alien pig is now a computer surveillance wizard. There's also suggestions on the site that she and Owen were/are involved in some way, which I'd like to know more about - the scene when they're talking about Blake could have been a jumping-off point for that. Hey, at least I'm engaged with the characters, even if that engagement is somewhat based around screaming "more character" at the TV.
 
 
penitentvandal
12:05 / 07.11.06
Well the timeline is probably a little screwy as the Daleks who attacked Canary Wharf had previously been hanging around outside of time/space in the Void

Y'see, this is the thing about continuity in Who - it is and it isn't. There are basically two levels of continuity - Doctor continuity, which is everything as the Doctor experiences it, so that for him and Rose the Docklands Dalek Death Match takes place after 'Dalek'; and linear continuity, i.e. linear time as experienced by everyone else, in which case the events of 'Dalek' (which is set in, what, 2010? Can't remember, but after 'Army of Ghosts/Doomsday') occur after the Sarfothariva Cyberman Submission Screwjob. And the problem, I think, is that RTD really doesn't have a handle on how to integrate these two.

It's hardly the man's fault of course. Continuity for Who, especially the second season, in light of Ms Piper's departure announcement, has been worked out pretty much on the fly, and Torchwood perhaps even more so - but I think it's something that's going to need to be handled at some point, especially in the 'Wood, which would be ten times as interesting if they made something of the fact that Cap'n Jack, a former time traveller himself, is now effectively marooned in Blair era Cardiff. And Owen's drank all the rum, too.

One thing which would have been really interesting - in terms of the van Statten Torchwood theory - would be to have the climax of that plotline in Torchwood terms be 'Dalek' - i.e. retell the episode from the point of view of the Torchwood team who have, somehow, got involved in it unbeknown to the Doctor or VS. It would be tricky, but with clever editing and plotting it could be made quite interesting, it would be a more leftfield way of doing the inevitable Torchwood/Who crossover, and it would be a clever way of handling the linear/doctor continuity differences - Jack, for example, would have to avoid letting the Doctor see him because the Doctor hasn't met him yet. Given Jack's mad-on for the Galifreyan this alone would provide some dramatic tension.

Basically, as absurd as it seems to say it, I'm thinking that B5 handled its use of time travel better than the Whoniverse guys are managing currently, and that wasn't even a primarily time travel oriented show. You could have removed the time travel element - make the sections in the future just 'visions' - and that would require very little changing of the plot, though obviously the framing sequence for In the Beginning would be buggered. Whereas in the Whoniverse, it seems that time travel is probably a more essential mechanic. I mean - why isn't Torchwood trying to build Tardises, for fuck's sake? They've seen one, they've (presumably) given it at least some kind of preliminary scan, they've been following the Doctor for ages, they know about void technology now - why isn't there some loon trying to build one from scratch in a particle accelerator somewhere? And don't give me the 'maybe one of the other Torchwoods is doing it' line, because in that case why are we not getting to see that instead of watching this bunch off heed-the-balls fucking shit up before watching the rugby?

Ranted a bit there, sorry.

One thing that badly should happen, soon, is that whoever is running Torchwood, there should be an attempt to wrest control of Torchwood Five away from Jack. The man clearly isn't functioning right (and why isn't he being used to tell a story about PTSD? Seriously. The man was hunted down like a dog by alien killing machines, then vaporised, then brought back to life by something not of this world. That has to fuck you up), and he's making stupid decisions about his team who, as Haus points out, are responsible for more deaths at this point than any of the aliens we've seen thus far (incidentally, Gwen's getting over killing that guy awfully quick, isn't she?). Basically, what we need is for whoever the Torchwood equivalent of Admiral Caine is to get in there and start going over the logs. And, quite possibly, stay and fire the lot of 'em.
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:18 / 07.11.06
Basically, what we need is for whoever the Torchwood equivalent of Admiral Caine is to get in there and start going over the logs

If only to bring the lovely "coulda been Miranda Zero" Michelle Forbes into the mix so Torchwood can mutate into Global Frequency asap.

One thing that badly should happen, soon, is that whoever is running Torchwood, there should be an attempt to wrest control of Torchwood Five away from Jack. The man clearly isn't functioning right

One possibility that occurred to me is that Jack isn't supposed to be in command of T5. He's a professional conman isn't he? So there is a chance he used the destruction of T1 as cover to insinuate himself into an agency where he can get access to useful alien technology and has a high likelihood of running into the Doctor.
 
 
penitentvandal
14:34 / 07.11.06
One possibility that occurred to me is that Jack isn't supposed to be in command of T5. He's a professional conman isn't he?

I'd never thought of that, but yes - given what we know of Jack, it's certainly possible, and would be a good plot twist for this series (unlike, say, Owen's temporary new man conversion).
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
15:46 / 07.11.06
(on continuity)

I was under the impression that Who continuity resembles a cold plate of spaghetti even on the best of days; sticky, messy and impossible to untangle. The New Who series have both done unspeakable things to previously accepted canon (not that I know much at all about the Whoniverse, but aren't there like a half dozen different "origins" and "demises" (not to mention visual styles) of the Daleks and Cybermen alone?) and my impression was that the earlier series did much the same thing to each other all the time. Not that it wouldn't be nice to see some continuity from time to time, or even - gasp! - from episode to episode, but the setting of the story kinda precludes it from the start. A continuity approach of "time is not a fixed line but a branching one and only the here and now matters" seems to do Who just fine, what the hell, Torchwood is the same place after all.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:50 / 07.11.06
The advertising posters, surely, showed Harkness in a Jack Bauer two-handed pistolgrip pose, in front of the (?) Assembly Rooms. The trailers were a fast-moving montage of science-ficton action, ending with an introduction of the team members (as they were) and a bit about Torchwood being outside normal structures.

See, that doesn't say "intelligent adult drama" to me. It says "silly, messy fun".

I know they could do a very similar ad campaign for, say, Battlestar Galactica (which is, imho, intelligent adult drama- well, most of the time, anyway), and probably do, but I'd say that would be the misleading one.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:10 / 07.11.06
I'm glad you all are enjoying it, but if "messy" is a compliment (and "silly" also seems to be a positive) then you like different kinds of TV drama to me.

I can see how this kind of discussion trying to smooth over the inconsistencies and bridge the gaps is fun, but I still think it's a very generous attitude.
 
  

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