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Bleach

 
  

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Triplets
22:12 / 27.03.08
Us vs Them, rescue mission, etc. Your comment has reminded me of something else I've thought of for a while. Now, the stated purpose of the Shinigami is to keep the amount of souls between Soul Society, Hueco Mundo, and Earth balanced, or at least flowing. It seems to me that this might actually be quite wrong. Hollows consume souls and spirit particles (which may be one and the same) now these consumed bits don't automatically go back to Earth but via Soul Burial they reenter the cycle to become real live humans again. See what I'm getting at? Hollows are scary looking Dysons.

Further, Shinigami themselves are, to me, cocking up the cycle far more than Hollows. They come to Soul Ssociety, get strong, and then... live for several hundred, if not thousands, of years. Their souls get tied up in the spirit lives of Soul Society, not reentering the living world for vast stretches of time. If the Hollow weren't around first to collect souls then be killed were they a natural response to the unusually long life-spans of the Shinigami?

Food for thought.
 
 
Seth
17:18 / 28.03.08
the Arrancar gain their abilities by sealing their power inside their swords, yes? What does Ichigo's bankai do? Compresses his power into his now under-sized sword, which increases his strength and speed, much like an Arrancar... It's an incredibly weird bankai for a Shinigami to have.

Not quite, as I understand it. The Arrancar's original Hollow form is sealed into their sword and temporarily released when they release their sword. In that respect their swords are actually closer to those of standard Shinigami than they are to Ichigo's because the release of the sword causes an outward unleashing of power. Ichigo's bankai is unique, because it seals his reiatsu into Tensa Zangetsu. While nominally a release it's actually a compression, which is the reverse of an Arrancar's sword and most Shinigami's bankai.
 
 
Triplets
00:37 / 29.03.08
Well aren't you the Answer Man!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
02:14 / 29.03.08
JUST THIS ONCE LET ME SAY "I HAVEN'T READ THE THREAD" BECAUSE I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE DO THAT!!!

But Mr Directo sent me a bunch of DVDs, wonderful guy that he is. I'm aware that it all changes in about ten episodes, but I'm five episodes in so far and it's ACE.

I NOW RETURN YOU TO YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED THREAD.
 
 
Triplets
21:34 / 29.03.08
I am adrift.
 
 
Seth
01:38 / 30.03.08
Yay! Stoatie! Pleasure to have you on board.

Triplets: While you wait for new Bleach you should either go with Transfer's recommendation or watch Gunbuster and Gunbuster II if you haven't already. Fill in the gaps of the best ongoing maxi-series with the two best mini-series.
 
 
Red Concrete
13:13 / 30.03.08
Or! if you are manga-spoiled already, then pass the time by revelling in issue -108. It has unflagged my wanes.
 
 
Razor Wind
21:21 / 30.03.08
Or! if you are manga-spoiled already, then pass the time by revelling in issue -108. It has unflagged my wanes.

Agreed. Four words: Backstory of the Vaizards. I'm assuming the minus number is how many years ago this happened.

Are we seeing a premature end in sight? Tite might have outsmarted himself with (event and counter-event that happened very recently - spoiler Ed.),forcing him to move his set-pieces forward before he's thought out the ending. I say this because I've got a sinking feeling about the outcome of this particular set-piece.
 
 
Seth
11:52 / 31.03.08
Can we keep discussion of the comic (no matter how veiled) out of this thread? If you want to chat about the comic you're welcome to set up a new thread in that forum.

(Discussion of issues that have already been adapted is fine though)
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
13:52 / 31.03.08
As I've recently caved in and caught up with the manga - the delay for upcoming filler is just too great - and I know that others have done the same, I'll be starting a dedicated Bleach thread in Comics for this purpose, probably today. Those who are spoiled silly, please come and post.
 
 
Seth
13:57 / 31.03.08
As I have been up to date with the manga for a while now I will join you there. But this thread remains very dear to my heart... at the very least it will become much more attuned to the process of adaptation.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
20:53 / 31.03.08
Go go go! But don't forget about this thread in the meantime! There's a chance the filler won't suck!
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
21:01 / 31.03.08
Btw, I just wanted to say how it cheers me to have a new fan coming aboard - this thread has more lurkers than it sometimes appears, but anyone who loves the show and wants to post about it is always more than welcome.

Stoatie, if you're reading this and haven't heard about it yet from El Directo - I know you're firmly on the pirate-y side of things in life and might be worried Bleach is a bit too ninja-y... be aware that there's a character coming up later who wears an eyepatch just to make his fights more difficult. You'll want to stick around for him, I think.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
22:22 / 31.03.08
Oh Christ, yes. Stoatman, you'll love him...
 
 
Seth
01:29 / 01.04.08
Yay! Jack is here!
 
 
Seth
12:09 / 04.04.08
Three weeks without a new episode really fuckin' sux.
 
 
Seth
08:55 / 10.04.08
That was absolutely fucking astounding. I know scheduling doesn't work like this, but Bleach 166 really felt like it took three weeks to storyboard the action, animate and score (the new pieces are probably from The DiamondDust Rebellion, which Dattebayo already seem to have fansubbed unless it's another one of their jokes). This is probably the best action we've yet seen in Bleach. It's so fast, so detailed and so kinetic, with so much property damage of a level that would previously have finished a fight displayed right from the very beginning.

So many great moments between Ichigo and Orihime. His apology to her for appearing the way he does, the very slight closing of his eye as he realises for the first time what he must now look like to his friends. Her seeing her Hollowised brother in him and feeling like the man she's in love with had become a completely different person. Nel's rallying cry and Inoue's shouting of support for Ichigo, even though it cost her to lay her fear of him to one side. And finally Ichigo's acceptance of that for her sake, that he was no longer permitted to get any more injured than he already was... I've read all those moments before, but they were astounding here, adapted beautifully with far more power than in the comics. We're hearing genuinely new stuff from Morita, with the softness of his initial apology that seemed to me to convey a sense of shame that his Vaizard form was somehow betraying his friend to the warmth of his closing line, a disclosure of gratitude and love for his friend who still shouted that she believed in him even though he has become something horribly other.

Last but certainly not least... when Halibel spoke with Megumi Ogata's voice it had me open mouthed and teary eyed, with chills going up and down my spine. To hear that soulful, restrained, frankly terrifying voice in Bleach... I know a person stacks up associations over time, but that fucking sound carries so much emotional weight for me that it was actually quite difficult to deal with.
 
 
Seth
13:04 / 10.04.08
Oh Dattebayo. You pranksters. Still, it beats the last time I tried to download this movie!
 
 
Triplets
15:00 / 10.04.08
Is The Diamond Dust rebellion worth downloading? Is it any good?

"Sorry... are you scared?"

166 was fantastic. Why does the animation quality for certain episodes jump so highly? Was it that they wanted to pull out all the stops, this being when Orihime firsts sees Vaichigo, when we first see Grimmjow's Pantera form and the first time they fight at a power level GREATER THAN 9000?!

Kudos to Kubo for heading off the "My friend is a monster!" angst so early on. Other writers would have tapped that well for entire seasons, here it's a momentary (if humongous) expression of doubt, quickly settled.

Not sure if I've mentioned it before but I love the sound direction for Ichigo's distorted Vaizard voice. It sounds incredibly alien and powerful, even when he's just breathing or grunting. The reverb makes it sound like it's coming from the back of the throat, like he's tapping into something.

Also: Grimmjow's laugh in the this ep is probably the most realistic (honest?) laugh I've heard for ages. The psycho.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
16:34 / 10.04.08
Why did it have to be Pantera ? You just know 100 or more metal-soundtracked AMVs of this episode are going to hit YouTube in the next few weeks.... But since I'm not one to mock fans of stuff I'm into for being excitably overinvested, I won't let something like that bother me. Not with an installment as terrific as this to talk about.

El D and Triplets have covered most of the best things in #166 so I'll just mention a couple of other elements that I loved:

- Nel's speech and the opening "Ganbare Itsygo!" Everyone should have someone shout "Ganbare!" for them at least once in their lives, especially when it's the stellar Tomoko Kaneda doing the honours. Her vocal style always leaves me in a heap of laughter, but it's even better when there's emotional heft in there as well.

- That one close-up of Grimmjow immediately after the mask goes on. Like most of the anime it's a straight panel lift from the manga, but in animated form it sums up GJ's character in a facial expression better than Kubo could have hoped. Nobody could ever sneer as well as that in real life.

- 'To Be Continued' allowed to fade out just that little slower than normal, with the result that the, already powerful, cliffhanger effect ramps up immensely.

- The heartstopping conclusion to the Shinigami Women's Association Paparazzi Bingo Card arc. Huge Success!

Oh, and balls to Dattebayo, by the by, for making me waste my precious bandwidth on their trolling. HD my arse.
 
 
Triplets
16:39 / 10.04.08
Pantera... considering Grimmjow's hair after he levels up it might not be an accident.

Loved Pantera Grimmjow's fighting style. That one move where he dashes off and circles round him for the kill (sprinting like a big cat) is fucking smashing.

Ichigo seemed to have his move-set expanded a little in this fight too. Some good back attacks in there. Adapting his style for the sneaky Grimmjow, or is there some darker influence?
 
 
Seth
18:32 / 12.04.08
I've been thinking about 166 in the light of Transfer's comments about everyone needing to have someone shout "Gunbare!" at them at some point in their lives. Not only is he dead right, but it suddenly struck me that up to now Ichigo has virtually always had to face his biggest opponents alone. Ikkaku, Kenpachi, Byakuya, Grimmjow, Ulquiorra… maybe this is why 166 moved me to tears, because finally someone was crying out their support for the boy.

Having now had such a moment it makes you realise that it's something we've never really seen in Bleach before, and that in turn makes you dwell on how lonely life must be for Ichigo. You rarely consider him in that sense because he's never spoken about it, never moaned or complained or even got philosophical about it. But even if he's fighting someone as likeably nasty and near anti-heroic as Grimmjow Jaegerjaques you're always totally in Strawberry's corner, totally behind him, and always subconsciously cheering for him on at least some level. Someone at some point had to cheer for this brave, kind hearted, pig headed kid, and so when it finally happened it was a real moment.

As perverse as it may sound, Ichigo is probably the most underrated character in Bleach amongst those I know who love the show. It's almost as though people have decided that *that which is understood does not need to be discussed.* In most other hands he'd be nightmarish to write, and it seems Kubo has worked a kind of magic to make him likeable and sympathetic. He's the main characer but to the best of my recollection he has never laughed once. He has a sense of humour but his brow is perpetually furrowed, partly from what Isshin referred to as a pain beyond his years that doesn't suit him yet, partly because of a deliberate studied teenage image. He's goofy, prone to idiocy, stubborn beyond belief and not the sharpest tool in the box. He wrestles with his dark side with barely a moment of whinging or self-anaylsis, treating it purely as a matter of willpower and strength. His saving graces are his willingness to throw himself into the firing line, his basic human goodness and the insane lengths he will go to in order to look out for those he loves.

In a similar manner to Kamina from Gurren Lagann there's a huge amount that any right thinking person could apply to their life by asking themselves *What Would Ichigo Do?* But Ma'at and I are in agreement: the character that Strawberry most closely resembles is Anakin Skywalker. Not Anakin as he was in the three dreadful, dreadful Star Wars prequels, but Anakin as he should have been. Imagine if Lucas had set up someone like our beloved protagonist and then turned him into Vader, how much more powerful those films would have been. That's what Kubo has created, and it's well past time that we sang the boy's praises in this thread.

Triplets: I've got no idea if The DiamondDust Rebellion is any good. The first time I tried to download it I got scat porn and Dattebayo's torrent turned out to be a baseball match. I suspect it is at best mediocre. Hitsugaya doesn't have much mileage for me as a character unless he's in an episode with Karin and it involves football, or unless Momo Hinamori is in the mix somewhere (which she almost certainly won't be for the film).

Changes in the animation quality for different episodes comes down to cost. The vast majority of the adaptation can be handled cheaply, it's the story and characters that are most important. I rarely feel the penny pinching outside of the large amount of recapped material. I guess I've just seen a lot worse in other anime shows.
 
 
hachiman
15:09 / 16.04.08
Just got caught up to 166. Man everytime i think i've seen everything this show has to offer, it turns my preconceptions upside down.

166 has to rank up there with my fave episodes ever right now, the Ichigo vs Grimmjow fight was great and Orihime's fear of what Itsygo is turning into was well done, especially by tieing it into her terrfying experience with her brother, and how her loss of faith in him seems to affect his faith in himself, which lowers his fighting ability.

Love. This. Show. And love Nel.
 
 
ORA ORA ORA ORAAAA!!
12:47 / 17.04.08
Man. This show is pretty great!
 
 
Triplets
14:58 / 17.04.08
Not particularly keen on 167. After the terrific pacing, from beginning to end, of 166 I thought that was a great tie-up of the Ichigo vs Grimmjow arc. 167, by comparison, felt like a rehash, not helped coming right after the material it was going back over, and a fairly clunky piece of exposition on the lifecycle of the Adjuchas/Gillian.
 
 
Seth
16:31 / 17.04.08
I had a number of problems with this episode and they all stemmed from the adaptation process.

First of all that narration just didn't work in the anime at all. Exposition like that works fine in comics as it's a convention of the medium and there is no auditory component. You seldom have to ask, "Whose voice is this?" The anime has never before had a voiceover and so it sticks out like a sore thumb. It would have been much better to have given that exposition to Grimmjow or Aizen, which is at least in keeping with the conventions of Kubo's flashback storytelling technique so far. It's a standout case of an adaptation failing through being too close to its source material.

Secondly I agree with Triplets that the pacing of the fight was off. The climax seemed to peak last episode, this slowed down the action to a crawl and removed all the sense of urgency at which 166 excelled.

Thirdly, this was emphatically not the place to leave the story before returning to filler. The show tries very hard to wrap up what's been adapted thus far into a neat bundle and to give it some sort of temporarily happy ending. The long sections of reused animation for Rukia, Chad, Ishida and Renji as Ichigo goes in for his final strike seemed really forced, and given that we've been told that two of them are dying elsewhere (or in Rukia's case are already dead, although who really believes that?) and the other two are running for their lives we know that there are far too many loose ends for this to be a satisfactory happy ending of any kind.

There is a much better place to leave the show at the end of issue 297, and an even better place to leave off at the end of 315. Cutting the action halfway through 286 is too soon, and it would only have taken another four episodes to get to a far better ending. It's tough to say how far ahead these guys have to plan though, so these better milestones may not have existed when the scheduling decisions were made. Both of these alterbnative options are certainly far darker than what we have here (which is really shoehorned to fit), but both leave you gasping for more. The way this has been done actually leaves me with some trepidation that the filler writers are going to attempt to integrate the new filler into continuity and bring things back to this same place later on, which I cannot see working in a million years. It'd be much better to give us an elseworlds-style tale that takes place out of continuity if you still want to have Ichigo and Rukia included in the filler action rather than find some way of coming back to this moment.

Fourth and finally, the music that plays out at the end of the episode is something that I really, truly didn't want to hear. It's been in the series twice before, once at the very end of the Soul Society arc and again at the very end of the Bound arc. Both were mammoth storylines that took a long, long time to unfold... and this has left me almost certain that we're in for at least a year of filler. If they try to make it canon then I can't see any other way of it playing out than some kind of *it was all a dream* scenario, so hopefully it will be firmly out of canon so that it doesn't mess with the story that Kubo is trying to tell.

Ach. There was going to be no other realistic way to continue other than with more filler. Even so this episode left a bad taste in my mouth. It could have been so much better.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
18:07 / 17.04.08
I was extremely surprised by the decision to bring the canon adaptation to a halt in this way, and agreeing with all the issues just raised, I'd add that the scene between Ichigo and Grimmjow excised here, in favour of a rather saccharine and underpowered reunion with Inoue, deprives us of one of my favourite Ichigo moments in the whole Espada arc. It's behind this cut:

[+] [-] From Chapter 286

If the canon material absolutely had to go on hiatus at this point, the cliffhanger that follows just a page or so later would have been a vastly preferable way to end this episode. As it stands, almost all of the impact of this legendary battle, and the conclusion (for now) to the Grimmjow storyline - one of the best antagonists I've ever seen in a fantasy series - has been wasted.
 
 
Seth
19:38 / 17.04.08
I think it's only truly wasted if the the return to canon anime doesn't match up alright with this temporary "ending" once the new filler is over. I'm convinced we'll get those moments, just later on, and I suspect much later on. If all the filler can be easily excised I might consider this actually a rather powerful moment of Ichigo and Inoue feeling as though they might just get out of there relatively scott-free before things turn really bloody nasty.

One small touch that came across better than in the comic: Ichigo gently lowering Grimmjow to the ground. Really nicely done.

I'm trying not to let my bitterness about filler take over at this point. Bleach has twice given us extended filler arcs (the Bound arc, the musical Arrancar/standalones/fake Hougyoku arc) and on both occasions we can pretend that the bits we don't like don't exist, with the story being left relatively unscathed. I'm hoping that in retrospect - maybe a long time in retrospect - this episode will only seem jarring for its poorly paced battle and out of place narrator, with the final reunion between the two orange-headed wonders seeming to be a particularly cruel piece of misdirection.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
06:43 / 24.04.08
First impressions?

So far everything that's remotely of promise here seems to be in the new OP and ED sequences.... I know I always pushed for filler material to be inconsequential wacky Karakura school high jinks, and it looks like we'll be seeing some (Chad's looking ripped there isn't he?), but first we have to get through some rather leaden Soul Society material that's almost certainly going to reset back down to zero come the end of this interlude. Kudos of sorts, though, for the 'we're doing a bottle storyline for no reason at all!' voiceover intro, the heartfelt attempt to make Third Squad interesting, and Ichigo being included in the Arrancar Encyclopedia against his will.
 
 
Seth
08:58 / 24.04.08
I was actually rather impressed by 168. It included a lot of Soul Society players that we haven't had a chance to see for a while, all of them were in character (impressive considering how many characters were in this episode), and the character designs for the newbies were a hell of a lot better than those seen in the Bound arc. I like a lot of the new scoring and the animation was nice and smooth, with what seemed to be a many more keyframe shots that the average episode (although maybe they're front loading the good stuff to make a good first impression). I also have no problem with an episode focusing on Kira, who carries the weight of pretty much the whole show. He's not had nearly enough to do since the Soul Society arc, which means that he's hardly been in the show for two years now. Elseworlds tale or not I like how he's kept the squad together when he's not the most confident guy in the world, especially seeing how he must be feeling pretty guilty about how be behaved in that earlier arc.

I liked Komamura's increased role, too. He had more to say for himself than he has in years, and it was a lovely touch to see that he still visits Tousen's friend's grave. He's actually one of the few Soul Society Captains who can get involved in the action as we've already seen his bankai, so I hope to get more of him in the coming story.

So yeah. Considering this is probably the most nervous I've been about seeing new Bleach I liked it. Liked the opening theme too.

Good job really, as this looks set to run for over a year.
 
 
Seth
23:52 / 24.04.08
What I like so far is that both Amagai and Kifune have at least as much potential to be interesting characters as Ichinose Maki. In the case of the former you have the repeated question asked by Komamura and his Lieutenant Tetsuzaemon Iba: which two captains took part in his examination? It has to be significant that the same question occurs twice in one episode. In the case of the latter he volunteered to shut down the Seizing Currents, but they were conspicuously still active. The blame is left with Mayuri's 12th, but we can't overlook that it's the newbie who is likely to have neglected give the order.

You know, part of me loves watching animated Bleach when I have no idea what might happen next. Yes, this is likely to be almost completely self-contained, but it's doing about a million miles better than the Bound arc so far.
 
 
Seth
09:20 / 25.04.08
A question related to a Wikipedia snippet from this page (spoiler filled if you are an anime only person, so don't click):

The Gate Watchers are giants (each is over 30 feet tall) that guard the four gates into Sereitei. They are elites of Soul Society, although not as strong as a captain or lieutenant. Jidanbō Ikkanzaka guards the West Gate, Higonyudo guards the South Gate, Danzomaru guards the North Gate, and Kaiwan guards the East Gate. The latter three side with Aizen during his betrayal of Soul Society, and were defeated by Jidanbō.

Now this can't really be called a spoiler, as the moment is long passed. It was just never adapted from the comic, for reasons unknown. Can anyone source the moment from the manga when they sided with Aizen, and explain why their allegiance is important? We know West Rukongai is Urahara's power base and that this is where Jidanbou is stationed (plus it's where the Shiba Clan reside). But Gin denied them entry through the West Gate, and Aizen was expecting them to get in via Kukaku's cannonball, so really what does it matter that three Gate Watchers are loyal to him? So yeah, a chapter and page reference would be useful.
 
 
Red Concrete
09:59 / 25.04.08
The other three make an appearance at the climax of the Soul Society arc, when Aisen has revealed himself, and all the captains confront him. In the Shonen Jump/Viz english volumes, it's in Vol 20, page 192 onwards.
 
 
Red Concrete
10:10 / 25.04.08
Or Issue 177, page 8
 
 
Seth
13:36 / 25.04.08
Ta much!
 
  

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