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Marvel's 'Civil War'.

 
  

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Spaniel
17:38 / 24.02.07
No, you're a romantic older lady
 
 
rabideyemovement
17:42 / 24.02.07
I didn't mean I didn't enjoy it Grandma... i appreciate the realism. If i had superpowers, I'd certainly have an ego about it.
 
 
tavella
22:33 / 24.02.07
My problem with Civil War is not how they showed Cap stopping; it's the one in-character moment that Millar grants him during the whole damn series. It's that they never explain why he *started*. There's this giant hole in the end of issue #1 that was never filled. Steve Rogers steps off a plane, having been illegally assaulted by Maria Hill (I can hardly say this too many times, but the SHRA _hadn't been passed yet_ when she pulled guns on him), and then he does not go to the Avengers or to the press or hell even the US government and say "Maria Hill is bonkers." He apparently decides to go on the run and announce himself in open rebellion instead of *trying to deflect the SHRA*, or at least ensuring that it does not put the corrupted SHIELD in charge of things.

They've tried to claim that 'he refused an order from the head of SHIELD', but that still doesn't explain it; my boss can fire me for refusing an order, she can't shoot me. There's nothing about the current CA series or the scene that suggest Rogers is under military discipline, and if they meant to retcon that he is, it's hideously out of character. Cap _would not_ beat up a bunch of kids following legal orders, just to avoid being arrested.

If Cap had thought he was committing a crime on the helicarrier, he wouldn't have done it; if he thought he was innocent of a crime, he wouldn't have gone on the run. The only real way you can cohere those two actions and not have it wildly out of line with his past history is that he concluded somewhere in that missing chunk that the MU government was so corrupt and fallen into fascism that peaceful resistance was impossible. Which doesn't sync either with his actions during the series or the ending.

The story ends up being "Captain America is very stupid for six issues and then he gives up."
 
 
This Sunday
23:51 / 24.02.07
Really, 'Captain A. is very stupid for six issues and then he gives up' would probably pass as the pitch for a 'Captain America: The End' story. Or, my explanation for whomever gets elected President in a bit here.

And, yes, Tony's got to be mind-controlled for some of this to work. Which, will make much development in his own stories of the near future a little specious and possibly entirely a waste, but, so be it.

How can these EVENTS always be so bad? In any universe, under any editorial board. So bad. Although 'Inifinity Wars' and 'One Million' were both kinda sorta sometimes good.

And did I miss the expanation of how everybody spoke in the 'Illuminati' thingy from last year? Were Strange and Namor and Reed Richards also brainwashed?

Is there any reason for me to read all seven issues of this if I ever get a chance to without paying? Surely it would hold together a little better, but cohesive and good aren't really the same thing, are they?
 
 
Tom Coates
00:15 / 25.02.07
It was all a bit weird really, wasn't it. I mean, I sort of understand super heroes a bit. I started understanding them when I moved around some of the causality. Put some super villains into the world - or some people using their abilities to do bad things - and then suddenly they have a huge advantage. They can't be stopped normal ways. So if you're a good person, I can totally see the next step that makes you go, "I need to do something about this, I don't want want my family to know what's going on, and I don't want people to be scared of me, hence .... etc"

I can also understand people's suspicion of government, but it's not so much an issue of freedom as fear. I don't want government to have details of me being gay (or at least I didn't used to, but I don't really care now) because a subsequent regime could do bad things with that. I can see why vigilantes are a danger too. Basically if you're in government, or—frankly—if you're a citizen, if you can get em, you'd want all your super heroes nicely responsible to the police or something, deputised and with responsibilities. Given how much money most people make, I can also see some heroes being way keen on being able to hero full time and get paid for it.

All of which is a bit rambling and all over the place, but it is to say, I get why people might want to be free of government, but I don't get why the heroes don't understand the simple logic of 'register or you can't go out there and protect people'. That seems totally reasonable to me, particularly when your main job is to assault people on sketchy evidence, or brawl in public. So yeah, they never really explained what the threat on the heroes was and why people resisted, except that it threatened the cheery status quo of comics. So I'm a bit cross about that.

And the plotting has been spotty. I mean, seriously, how many times have you read a comic where people fight in public and then look around them and realise how much damage they've done to the people they were trying to protect. I mean, crapping hell that's an old chestnut. And a cheap cheap ending.

On the other hand, as someone said earlier, it gets the universe to an interesting place. And of course the point was that no one is supposed to have done anything with bad intentions or anything unforgiveable, because we have to be able to forgive them and keep buying their books, so I get that you can't actually have a debate about rights and wrongs as such. If it gets you where you want to go, then maybe it doesn't matter about the ride itself. Except it sort of does to me, a little, in the background, sorry...

Overall as an event, it's been interesting and intriguing and I suspect a reasonable success. As a comic book in its own right, it has been clumsy, formulaic and a bit crappy.
 
 
This Sunday
00:42 / 25.02.07
It might be more interesting once in awhile to see a hero decide not to get into a senseless fistfight that takes out every other building, several dozen parked vehicles, and a city park. To just deliberately steer it away, or refuse to engage in that way. Anyone who's ever had to restrain someone knows it's probably easiest to just hit them with a chair or something, but that, y'know, hurts them. If you aren't trying to hurt someone, you don't pick something up and smack them in the face with it. You don't shoot them. You restrain them. Especially if they're a generally good person who you know and kinda like.

But it rarely ever works out that way. They have to figure out the damage to others, and to property, after the fact.

If your friend is going to, as example, go off and make an ass of themselves, or they want to get a big knife so they can cut off their pinky to impress somebody, you don't go outside, get in a car, drive it through the side of the building and hit your friend with it. Now, if it's Frank Castle - on either side of this - sure, that makes sense. Or Stark when he's really, really drunk and trying to glass the collective Avengers with an oversized bottle. But, Spider-Man or Captain America?

Still, another reason why I liked the last issue of 'Planetary' over the last four big events in the MU.
 
 
fluid_state
07:13 / 25.02.07
Quick question, as I'm all typed out.

Did this "event" work for, say, your average fourteen-year-old? Will (did?) it engage the imagination/interest of the youth market Marvel seems to want/need to recapture?

I kinda hope some kid bought this in a convenience store and had their interst piqued, but I fear it's just a bunch of us old farts talking up a storm about a crappy comic series.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
08:18 / 25.02.07
The sales were terrific, apparently! To the tune of over three hundred thousand copies a month!

That's a lot of new comics fans who are now feeling a bit empty and cheated, I suppose.

God knows, I am.
 
 
diz
08:46 / 25.02.07
Still, another reason why I liked the last issue of 'Planetary' over the last four big events in the MU.

Do you mean "last" as in "most recent" or "last" as in "final?" Because we still have one more issue of Planetary to go.
 
 
Blake Head
13:40 / 25.02.07
Ok, not entirely on topic, but related: I've not been following Civil War, but I recently went through Iron Man: Inevitable and thought it was good solid stuff. In a nutshell, it's about Stark's struggle to move beyond a point where being a superhero involves bouncing villains off nearby buildings and in general "Iron Man" meaning more than a hulking tin can with rocket boots and energy beams, and in turn not so much about finding new ways to deal with the old problems but having found new methods and a new identity being dragged back into his former role by his heritage of villains. Anyway... it's the sort of thing that if developed could make the character intereting for me, and certainly would better characterise a "radical change" for the character than pciking sides in a big scrap.

What I want to know is if anything from that mini-series has been incorporated into the main Civil War story or Iron Man's solo book? I suspect not, because secret mind control and cock fighting and general divisiveness seem to be exactly what that version of Stark was trying to avoid, but it seems a shame if that aspect of his evolution is going to be so immediately elided in the forseeable future of the character. Has anyone read both and want to let me know?
 
 
The Falcon
14:06 / 25.02.07
It might be more interesting once in awhile to see a hero decide not to get into a senseless fistfight that takes out every other building, several dozen parked vehicles, and a city park. To just deliberately steer it away, or refuse to engage in that way.

Have you ever read any run-of-the-mill Marvel comics ever, DD? It's all 'not here, gotta get out into the open - people could get hurt!', etc. fairly often.
 
 
This Sunday
15:24 / 25.02.07
So, yes, I slightly stretched on my get-to-vacant-lot-to-fight complaint. Or something. But, really, I haven't seen that sort of thing done much in the last, say, fifteen years. Not since the just-pre-Image Marvel days and really notably not since 'The Authority' hit the first time.

The superheroes... the Marvel superheroes used to do it all the time. It was how it was done, so nobody died while you were trying to restrain the Hulk in NYC, or Namor wanted to take out the Fantastic Four and get it on film, but doesn't want to smash to pieces every surfacedweller in LA to do so.

More recently, the DC vs Marvel series had Hulk and Superman fighting entirely away from any other people, so as to avoid damage.

But, y'know, they invented Damage Control, and that was that. Suddenly, you kinda need the property damage because it helps the economy.

And now they've done something with Damage Control, who I think are secretly really in the suit, not Speedball. Speedball probably went to live with the real Question in the Ditko Retirement Center for Unusable Characters.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
15:33 / 25.02.07
More recently, the DC vs Marvel series had Hulk and Superman fighting entirely away from any other people, so as to avoid damage.

I missed this ... I suppose it's off the point a bit, but nevertheless I have to ask; who won?

You see I think Hulk should have done, really.
 
 
This Sunday
15:50 / 25.02.07
Superman won. Because fans got to vote on the main matches, things happened where Wolverine (with bone claws) beat Lobo, Storm beat Wonder Woman, and Superman punched out the 'Professor' Hulk, at his biggest, greenest, and strongest. Or, and Aquaman won against Namor by dropping a whale on him. That was it. One whale. Like Namor possibly grabbed by the tail and used back in the forties to bitchslap the Human Torch.

It did have some interesting moments, though, for a total corporate cash-in written by committee, et cetera, et cetera. Thor and Captain Marvel consulting their respective pantheonesque god-groups, rather than just jumping right into punching.

Best result were the Amalgam stories.

'Civil War' was better, maybe, but it would've definitely been better if it'd only been four issues long.
 
 
Spaniel
16:04 / 25.02.07
Just in case it's unclear, Alex, the aforementioned Hulk vs Supes battle royale was bloody eons ago in the mid-ninties.

I remember Spidey trying to get innocents away from Morlun fairly recently.

(This could degenerate into a very silly debate, so I'm backing away now...)
 
 
This Sunday
16:17 / 25.02.07
Ah. To clarify 'more recently' was meant to be based out of my initial examples being from the sixties. The DC vs Marvel thing was around ninety-four.

And maybe there should be a superhero ethics thread, somewhere outside of this one, to cover further. Or, not.
 
 
The Falcon
17:14 / 25.02.07
Anyway, back more on-topic, I present the best review of any comic ever, which happens to be a review of the last installment of Civil War.

As a taster to click the link: it ends with, like, five pages of Mark Millar patting himself on the back, only, like, channeled through another horrible letter. I like this one because it sounds like something a little kid would write to his mom from summer camp, only it's supposed to be a grown-up writing a love letter to his wife. But I kinda actually half-believe that if Mark Millar wrote a love letter to his wife, it would include ads for upcoming Marvel comics, so-- maybe it is a little believable.

So good.
 
 
rabideyemovement
14:40 / 26.02.07
To be fair about the heroes pulling their battle into the heart of NYC, it was their only escape option from the Negative Zone, T'Challa and Cloak working together materialized them all outside the only other dimensional aperture which was at the Baxter Building. Cheap plot device, yes, but it explains why the heroes would drag the fray into a populated area.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:32 / 26.02.07
Because we still have one more issue of Planetary to go.

We, or our descendants.

I for one have followed Civil War with interest, and am eager to see the new spin-off books. Wonder Man, in particular, has always seemed to me a terribly underused character, whose powers of flight and hitting have been and will be a boon to any Avengers team.
 
 
This Sunday
15:46 / 26.02.07
Our 'ancestors' don't you mean?

Anyway, I do hope some good books/stories get spun out of this, I just wish the mini itself told a whole and cohesive story, in a way that none of the last few years of big events have managed to do. You should be able to just pick up the miniseries and maybe one or two tangential issues to get a firm grip on, y'know, the actual story. Otherwise, don't have a miniseries, but just include the necessary information in various titles. Thus sparing us things like that Sentinel-crew title that I'm pretty sure was just a miniseries but didn't seem to have anything interesting or narratively-useful to say.

There should be ends to miniseries, because they are finite. Ongoings can be far more open-ended, and even when they appear to have endings (makes for good end-of-run or end-of-collection) they don't, because another issue comes out right after ('right after' being next month or, sometimes, next year) the apparent ending. This is an arbitrary policy, yes, but...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:01 / 26.02.07
Our 'ancestors' don't you mean?

No. Obviously not. Because Planetary takes a very long time to come out. Do you see?

I am, if anything, even more excited by Omega Flight than the thought of my blind date on Friday. Beta Ray Bill has generally, and not unreasonably, been considered one of the most underused characters in the Marvel Universe. An alien with the powers and the physique of Thor, but the face of a bird-horse? Marvellous stuff. I hope that "Joey Q" has taken heed of my suggestion on my Comicspace page, and rebranded this exciting character

THORSE

Being in Canada can only make THORSE more exciting. How long before he gets his own comic?
 
 
Blake Head
16:17 / 26.02.07
Forget horseface, what about the future of Iron Man?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:59 / 26.02.07
The Wonder Man series from the early nineties was fun. It established him as an immortal ionic energy being that couldn't be killed... 3 issues later he was killed in West Coast Avengers. I bet he saw the funny side to that!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:25 / 26.02.07
Forget horseface, what about the future of Iron Man

Shell-head confronts his greatest enemy - THE BOTTLE.

Only joking. Under the malign influence of the Purple Man, who is disguised as a loving mother of the kiddies who died in Stamford, Tony becomes a shadowy figure, relieving the stress of his job as director of S.H.I.E.L.D with sordid, anonymous sex with prostitutes.

IRON JOHN

Meanwhile the Thor Clone/Robot, its memories and face destroyed by Hercules, lives a confused and terrified life as homeless person on the streets of New York, horrifying people with its grotesque appearance, and yet somehow, when its memories do return, they are memories not of cold, sterile laboratories and the flexible fingers of Reed Richards, but of... Asgard.

THOR, BUM

Detecting that the spark of the son of Odin has settled in this abomination's breast, join Omega Flight as they rush to save him before he can be captured by A.I.M, who will as usual either file him or spunk his potential entirely in an ill-thought-out plan to kill a visiting dignitary. Heroically, Beta Ray Bill, now known as THORSE, uses his own life force, channeled through a suit of Iron Man's armour (thought I'd forgotten, eh), to revive the soul of Thor in the shape-shifting body of - oh, why not at this point - DEATH'S HEAD II. As his own life force ebbs,

BILL WITHERS.

So, Thor. Body of Death's Head II. CAN TURN HIS ARMS INTO MAGIC HAMMERS.

MS MARVEL MAY APPEAR IN AN ANCILLARY CAPACITY
 
 
Spaniel
17:27 / 26.02.07
I am lolling, Mr Haus.
 
 
Spaniel
17:29 / 26.02.07
I hope DC follow suit and give Batman 'Knife Arms'.
 
 
This Sunday
17:46 / 26.02.07
Wow. I have to applaud anyone who can improve on Beta Ray Bill, and 'Thorse' is definitely an improvement. Brilliance in a can.

(First issue: 'A Man Called Thorse!')

Now, if someone could just come up with an excuse to have monkeys consistently guest-appearing in 'Thorse Biweekly'.

(Oh, and ancestors/descendants; 'Planetary' 26 featured that weird maybe-gaff of 'ancestors' is all.)

Didn't the last issue of 'Thunderstrike' feature a hammer/axe handed Bloodaxe/Thunderstrike merger suiciding with his own weapons? Or did he just hold them in normal hands, and I want them to be axe/hammer hands?

(Is Thunderstrike the new Bucky, since Bucky's back? Nobody needs to resurrect him, right?)
 
 
gridley
18:03 / 26.02.07
So, Thor. Body of Death's Head II. CAN TURN HIS ARMS INTO MAGIC HAMMERS.

Words by Haus. Art by Denfeld.
 
 
Mario
22:08 / 26.02.07
Now, if someone could just come up with an excuse to have monkeys consistently guest-appearing in 'Thorse Biweekly'.

The spirits of his people have reincarnated as monkeys. With winged hats.

Next?
 
 
D Terminator XXXIII
05:50 / 27.02.07
Is this one of Millar's pitches for Spider-Man post-Civil War?

The drawing's *SO* *NOT* *WORKSAFE*, tho'.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
08:55 / 01.03.07
this hilarious remix shows how CW could / should have ended.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
15:54 / 01.03.07
I haven't been following super close, but let me get this straight: Captain America has suggested that the secret IDs of every superhero on the planet be entrusted to Tony "I've been mind-controlled by Kang/Immortus since infancy" Stark? Is there any hero who has had his head more goofed with in the MU other than maybe Havok?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
16:15 / 01.03.07
Judging by this month's ussue of 'Frontine' though, that's nothing compared to what's been done to Paul Jenkins over the years.
 
 
This Sunday
16:52 / 01.03.07
I'd have given them to Magneto, if he could be found in time. After all, he is an honorable, respectable psychotic mass-murdering hero.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:35 / 01.03.07
So let's get this straight. Captain America steps down because the common man starts fighting him? I know that regular Captain America is a bleeding heart liberal, but wasn't he supposed to be fighting in Europe during WW2?

"We parachuted Captain America into Berlin twelve hours ago! Has he killed Hitler yet?"
"Er, he had a chat with the first Germans he met, found that they genuinely believed that Nazism was their best hope for the future and so surrendered."
 
  

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