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paranoidwriter waves hello
00:43 / 04.08.06
Apologies, I'm hogging this discussion, so I'll try and make this my last post here.

EmberLeo, I don't think people are saying sig's make posts "unreadable", just that when used excessively it interrupts the reading flow from one post to the next. I could try and find you a past example of this if you like, but I'm concerned that it would be a little unfair towards whoever it was that was signing their posts. Seriously, I bet in six months you'll come across one of these examples and go "oh right, I see you what mean..."

However, I agree that poking at newbies is wrong (if that's what's happening in this thread), and it's something I hope I don't end up doing.

Good luck and 'twas nice to make your acquaintance.
 
 
EmberLeo
06:24 / 04.08.06
Seriously, I bet in six months you'll come across one of these examples and go "oh right, I see you what mean..."

Considering how long I've been doing it, and how long I've been reading various kinds of email, posting boards, online journals, etc? I kind of doubt it

It was a specific person who said my signing posts made it difficult for them to read, not a general complaint. But then, my confusion wasn't directed at you personally in that case, either.

In any case, thank you for the welcome. It's nice to meet you too.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:27 / 04.08.06
Next up - smileys! Don't touch that dial!
 
 
EmberLeo
07:32 / 04.08.06
Meh. I'd rather they didn't get translated into those little yellow graphics, actually.

I don't mind *smiling* instead...

Or is it a faux pas to emote here entirely?
 
 
illmatic
07:40 / 04.08.06
I think you should keep signing, soley to annoy Boboss. I may follow him around the board and sign his posts for him

I feel much as you, a few letters at the end of a post - if the post is legible and good to read who cares? I find picture sigs more annoying because they take up loads of space.


________________________



Who's the Daddy now?
 
 
Jub
08:05 / 04.08.06
Most of what I wanted to get across in responding to the barb at all seems to be understood by at least some of you - that poking at the newbies, though a long and "grand" tradition of groups everywhere, is not the best way to make them feel welcome.

Ember - I'm not poking at you because you're new. I'm poking at you because you signed your posts. My contention was that you signed your posts because you didn't know that it was generally frowned upon here, and now you do - and have stopped doing it, so job done.
 
 
illmatic
08:13 / 04.08.06
Lots of love

Jub

 
 
EmberLeo
08:19 / 04.08.06
My contention was that you signed your posts because you didn't know that it was generally frowned upon here, and now you do - and have stopped doing it, so job done.

Ahh, but I didn't stop because "it's generally frowned upon". A lot of things I do are frowned upon despite being utterly harmless, and I don't change them for the very reason that they're harmless.

I stopped because people threw a frelling fit and it's not worth the grief. Squeaky wheels and all.

And honestly? I feel like I undermined myself, and I don't feel good about that at all. I think I should have stood my ground, or left. But I decided it would be childish to leave over something so minor - for the exact same reason the reaction I got to signing my posts seems ridiculous to me.

These little identity habits are very important to me. Being pushed to change how I represent myself because other people don't think it's cool enough feels very wrong.

But it seems like maybe there's something a bit wrong with me if being asked to omit 9 characters from the end of my posts hurts that much in the first place.

So I suppose you could say I stopped because I didn't think I was making sense, and doubt anybody here would care why it mattered to me, given that it didn't occur to anybody to ask me if there was a reason beyond ignorant whim that I signed my posts in the first place.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:33 / 04.08.06
I stopped because people threw a frelling fit and it's not worth the grief. Squeaky wheels and all.

Hang on, I know this one... the squeaky wheel makes a high-pitched whining noise?

I don't think hyperbole is your friend, here, EL. Nobody threw a frelling fit. Oh, and it's OK to say "fucking" here. Jub suggested that you not sign your posts, xk explained through a haze of jetlag why ze found signed posts irritating, others did likewise, and then a series of increasingly silly gag sigs popped up.

If you want to carry on signing your posts - or if you want to explain the rationale behind it, beyond "I've done it for ages" - you are free to do so. However, if you do so you probably have to get used to the idea that some people will continue to express annoyance at it on aesthetic or functional grounds. Other people will not comment on it, but will, through prejudice or experience, take your thoughts less seriously. That's pretty much it.
 
 
illmatic
08:42 / 04.08.06
lots of love

Haus
 
 
illmatic
08:45 / 04.08.06
Other people will not comment on it, but will, through prejudice or experience, take your thoughts less seriously. That's pretty much it.

Well some of them may do, but they'd be petty wankers wouldn't they? Some of us may not care that much, but find others pissy comments about others innocuous habits increasingly irritating.
 
 
EmberLeo
08:48 / 04.08.06
*Sigh* Nevermind.

I'll sign my posts and if I get tired of being poked at for it, I'll just leave, since trying to point out that mocking people for their idiosyncrasies is either essentially useless, or I'm hopelessly bad at making my point.

Regardless, it's not worth this conversation, much less the grief.

And "Frelling" isn't an avoidance of swearing (or rather, it is on Farscape, but not in my vocabulary).

--Ember--
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:12 / 04.08.06
Well some of them may do, but they'd be petty wankers wouldn't they?

They might be petty wankers. They might have noted that people who disregard the house style in ways that others find disruptive to their reading experience have in the past often apparently shown more attention to signing their own names than to reading everything that other people have writen. For example, 33, who also disdains the fairly clear methodology adopted by most of us for quoting previous text, or Vladimir J Baptiste. This by no means means that everybody who signs their posts is going to do that, but, you know, some people who write in ALL CAPS MAY HAVE SOME VERY USEFUL THINGS TO ADD TO THE EXPERIENCE OF THE BOARD.

At present I'm more of a mind to be disappointed that EL has condemned us for not considering the many deeply-felt reasons why she may sign her posts, but when actually invited to explain them responds with Sigh* Nevermind. Personally, I also find other people having differing views being described as "throwing a fit" really, really tedious - much more so, speaking personally, than the signing of posts.
 
 
Jub
09:20 / 04.08.06
So I suppose you could say I stopped because I didn't think I was making sense, and doubt anybody here would care why it mattered to me, given that it didn't occur to anybody to ask me if there was a reason beyond ignorant whim that I signed my posts in the first place.

Okay then. I'll bite. Why are you signing your posts in the first place EL?
 
 
illmatic
09:27 / 04.08.06
They might have noted that people who disregard the house style in ways that others find disruptive to their reading experience have in the past often apparently shown more attention to signing their own names than to reading everything that other people have writen.

Well, I would suggest that these people actually read what she has written and contributed to threads and make a judgment on that basis rather than deciding to "take their thoughts less seriously" in a kneejerk fashion. IMO, her contributions to the Temple have been intelligent and thoughtful, and she's most welcome.

If someone really is finding 9 letters at the end of a post "disruptive to their reading experience", I'd suggest they take some headache tabs and have a bit of a lie down.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:31 / 04.08.06
Incidentally, Illmatic, I think you may have stumbled on something if tangential interest there. Weirdly, I find "lots of love, (name)" less jarring, personally - just as I tend to end my private messages with "Regards, (name)". It takes up the same amount of space, but it demonstrates that the approach of the person writing is actually to treat the exchange as correspondence - as an exchange equivalent to the exchange of letters rather than the exchange of spoken words. The odd thing about the sig, as opposed to the signature, is, I think, its artificiality. This may be because my exsperience of the sig file is mainly in email and on Usenet, and I see Barbelith as being markedly different in construction and function to both, although arguably all message boards evolved in a number of ways from Usenet mechanisms, so one might perhaps see the sig as homage.
 
 
EmberLeo
09:33 / 04.08.06
The reason I said *sigh* nevermind is that I'm not sure I can explain why it matters so much, so I feel kind of... stupid, I guess.

It's not that it isn't important to me, it's that the original reason for beginning it isn't per se why it's important.

I think originally I started signing my posts because I was on a board where you could tell the system whatever name you liked at the time of your post, and sometimes people would impersonate others to get them in trouble. But those people didn't always take the time to replicate specific habits of the person they were impersonating, so I started a very clear habit of signing all my posts in exactly the same way. Sure enough, the only time anybody impersonated me, they forgot to sign.

But after so long, and doing it in so many places, it's sort of a piece of my online person. So aside from the fact that it's a reflex, (which it is - you'd be amazed how physically difficult it is to not sign things at this point), it's... A symbol, I guess?

I don't know. I think it makes sense to people who know me, but I don't think I can make sense of it to strangers. I gave up because I didn't want to be made fun of if I tried and you thought my reasons were stupid. I mean, if I'm already this upset (however irrational that may be at this point) and you haven't even addressed my reasons, what am I going to do if I try and explain, and I fail, or you folks decide to go ahead and poke at me anyway?

I did read the posts. It is my perception that a bunch of people are mocking me with sig lines and sig images that are totally out of proportion to what I ever did in signing my posts. But if the conversation has gotten out of hand I know it's at least as much my fault for taking the bait as it is anyone else's for putting it out there.

I still think baiting me in the first place in the frelling introductions thread isn't appropriate, but anybody who agrees with me on that count already does.

--Ember--
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:43 / 04.08.06
Ah, well, there we differ. I don't think the sigs were particularly mocking or baiting you. I think that they were a series of jokes about the nature of sig files. The only person who ties tham in to your behaviour is xk, I think, who points out that she was exaggerating to make a point. I can't tell you offhand how all about you other board members are, but I think I'm not more than about 8% about you.

Illmaystacks:


If someone really is finding 9 letters at the end of a post "disruptive to their reading experience", I'd suggest they take some headache tabs and have a bit of a lie down.


I'd suggest that you do not ascribe physiological causes to non-physiological reactions. Unless you have your period or something, obvs. But, you know, don't throw a fit.

Lots of love,

Haus
 
 
illmatic
09:45 / 04.08.06
I don't think the sig files above are necessairily taking the piss out of you, EL. I see it more as long time posters haven't a joke amongst themselves - ie. "can I come up with a sig/image combo that amuses me/plays with the board aesthetic". Intro threads often spin off in all sorts of tangential directions.

At least only person's mentioned asscandling - which is the has got to be the most unfunny Barbelith>newbie injoke EVAH. I hate it so much.
 
 
Smoothly
09:46 / 04.08.06
I fear I must be a bit of a petty wanker. I don't find sigs to be an actual obstacle to reading, but they just affect the tone of the post, to my eyes. It has an 'over and out' quality to it, drawing a line under what you've said, as if that wraps everything up and you don't intend to say more. It's the message board equivalent to people who finish sentences with 'End of.'

I know that the sigger might not intend to affect that tone, but, as Haus says, an all-capper might not intend to come across as shouting. But, to some people at least, it will.
 
 
Smoothly
09:52 / 04.08.06
Oh, yeah, Haystacks makes a good point. In the Conversation, Ember, there's quite a lot of banter, tangents and talking around the edges of things. You probably won't find people bring up the sig thing in other forums. A place for everything and everything in its place.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:56 / 04.08.06

At least only person's mentioned asscandling - which is the has got to be the most unfunny Barbelith>newbie injoke EVAH. I hate it so much.


Totally seconded. End of.
 
 
illmatic
10:00 / 04.08.06
You see Ember, you just have to stay on here a while, and then start using a %hilarous% sig which references asscandling. Then, *everyone* will hate you.
 
 
EmberLeo
10:02 / 04.08.06
Okay, I'm making a point of calming down, and re-reading the last few posts.

I want to applogize for being unduely disruptive. It's not a habit, I swear. I do have a temper, and lately I've had more trouble keeping it than I've had in years, but if you'd asked me yesterday I wouldn't have guessed this whole signature business would be such a big deal to me.

Haus - It takes up the same amount of space, but it demonstrates that the approach of the person writing is actually to treat the exchange as correspondence - as an exchange equivalent to the exchange of letters rather than the exchange of spoken words.

Hrmm. It's kind of a reversal of logic, I think - I have actually taken to signing my hand-written correspondences (what few there are) with -Ember- (longer lines). I do make a small distinction between stand-alone correspondance emails (which I usually sign "Be Well, --Ember--") vs. writings that are part of an ongoing dialogue (which I only sign in the usual way).

In my mind posting boards, online journals, and emails are not equivalent to either spoken conversation or printed words. They're their own unique level of interaction. But I do treat IMs as equivalent to speech, and don't sign in that context.

I think it's the nature of delayed vs. real time. I know an email I write may not be read for some time, and a post I write may be read over and over again far into the distant future. IMs are immediate.

Does that make sense?

The only person who ties tham in to your behaviour is xk, I think, who points out that she was exaggerating to make a point.

I see your point. Honestly I think if we hadn't already been on the topic of it in an initially negative (if mildly) way, I probably wouldn't have percieved it as personal, but it was just a lot combined with the rest.

Susan -

It has an 'over and out' quality to it

Heh, that's actually kind of funny, since I work radio base for the Operations/Crowd Control (we can't call it "security" 'cause that means legal things) team at a pagan convention each year. It's totally unrelated, but I'm actually used to ending everything I say with "One Eight Clear".

In this case, I mean the signature much more like "over" than "over and out". I'm sure that doesn't help at all. I can live with people thinking I'm a bit more formal.

You probably won't find people bring up the sig thing in other forums.

It's true - which is why I'm still here, actually. If I'd gotten this in the Temple I wouldn't have stayed to argue the point this much.

--Ember--
 
 
EmberLeo
10:04 / 04.08.06
You see Ember, you just have to stay on here a while, and then start using a %hilarous% sig which references asscandling. Then, *everyone* will hate you.

Heh, I think I'm safe, then. Being nice to newbies used to be my job.

--Ember--
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:04 / 04.08.06
Ember, if you want to sign your posts more power to you and good on you for calling on unnecessarily rude posts.
 
 
toughest, fastest, fatest
18:59 / 04.08.06
It's totally unrelated, but I'm actually used to ending everything I say with "One Eight Clear"

What everything? Even though you only do one convention a year, you are that proud of being a base station master you end every conversation one eight clear?

Wow, glad you found your vocation. Nice one.

¬¬frats¬¬

porrig_________
 
 
lekvar
19:26 / 04.08.06
Now that was unnecessarily rude.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:30 / 04.08.06
It does seem a little uncalled-for.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:42 / 04.08.06
Oh, and as one of the anti-sig people, I'd like to disassociate myself from anti-sig people who seem to be trying to make you feel unwelcome, Ember.

This really is a fight over nothing, and it'd be nice if it just died now.
 
 
EmberLeo
19:58 / 04.08.06
What everything? Even though you only do one convention a year

Now that was unnecessarily rude.

That's ironic - I took that as facitious, not provoking. But I'm used to that particular style of pointing out linguistic errors (i.e. I used an absoloute where it didn't literally apply).

But if I'm going to be held to that level of extreme precision, I must admit that I misquoted myself. When I'm on base, it's "Base Clear". I only answer "One Eight Clear" when I'm roving. I'm sure that's very important here.

--Ember--
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:28 / 04.08.06
Oh, for fuck sake, people, give it a break, will ya?

DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!! DEAD MEGATRON!!!!
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:33 / 04.08.06
(and with that I mean: get off Ember's back, she's nice. After all, it's just a freaking six letter name, it's hardly gonna disrupt anything)

Sixty-nine clear, go! go! go!
 
 
grant
20:38 / 04.08.06
I actually kind of like reading "Ember" as a word. Like most people did when Capt. Zoom was around, signing his posts "Zoom." As if he was just leaving in a hurry.

This time, it's more like someone is chanting at me or trying to keep me warm, or reminding me that this thought is only the beginning of something that could be fanned into a larger thing.

But that's probably just me.
 
 
The Falcon
20:43 / 04.08.06
DericGeneric used to sign his too, with a made up name.
 
  

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