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Moderation requests & discussion thereof

 
  

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Kit-Cat Club
10:04 / 11.10.05
Just to be clear: I didn't request deletion because I thought it was bad in terms of quality, but because I found it really offensive.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:50 / 11.10.05
The request I agreed to was definitely for deletion... I think...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:31 / 13.10.05
You might have just assumed so and clcked, on seeing that something was to be done with it. I make that kind of mistake all the time: y'know, early morning, cardboard box that rustles when shook, great stuff, must be cornflakes. Augh fuck it's kit-e-kat dry edition, augh fuck etc.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:15 / 14.10.05
Could a Convo mod move this thread to the Creation?

http://www.barbelith.com/topic/22702

Think it's a more suitable forum for it.
 
 
Mazarine
00:31 / 15.10.05
I'm inclined to decline. I think Nick picked the right forum- it's not really a thread about discussing the process as much as discussion of feelings.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:18 / 15.10.05
Aaaagh! why was the "Insanity Heroes" thread deleted from Radio & Music? How is the boy ever going to learn if hge doesn't have to live with the consequences of his mistakes?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:05 / 15.10.05
Dunno - I didn't agree it and would not have.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:39 / 17.10.05
I've agreed to lock the Snide Throwaway Posts thread, but disagreed deleting it. I agreed the lock partly because thread starter had requested it, and partly because it had just gone dag-nasty evil, but a lot of people had put in a lot of posts, some of them v. funny, so it seemed a shame to delete.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:43 / 17.10.05
Yeah, fair enough. It can stand as a terrible monument to bad intentions gone awry, or something.
 
 
Axolotl
15:16 / 17.10.05
Could someone please delete the duplicate "No more Mutants" thread?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:24 / 17.10.05
And the original, for good measure.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
16:39 / 17.10.05
IMHO this locking/deleting of threads business is getting a little out of hand. The board is starting to feel a little uptight to me, i'm not aiming this at anyone in particular by the way.
As much as the "Snide" threads content was a little uncomfortable for some & possibly cowardly in some posters opinions it was hardly pretending to be anything it wasn't. It also seemed to help to reduce increasing threadrot.
The thread was forfilling it's purpose & as far as i could see objections to it were countered with a relatively equal amount of opposing viewpoints.
I would like to request a review on the locking/deleting of threads policy that seems to be being adopted as i feel it could hinder freedom of expression on the board. Within reason obviously.
If posters are 'seriously' personally affected by certain comments/threads on the board then that's another matter.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:46 / 17.10.05
The thread was forfilling it's purpose & as far as i could see objections to it were countered with a relatively equal amount of opposing viewpoints.

And it hasn't been locked.

Given that, do you have any other examples of it "getting out of hand," or is this just something that you've plucked out of thin air?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:49 / 17.10.05
Randy - no, it has been now. Of course, it could be unlocked, but since the thing that decided me in agreeing the lock was that the thread starter was requesting it, if Harrison, say, started a "son of", I don't think I'd agree to a lock requested by somebody who had not started the thread unless it was clearly detrimental to Barbelith to have it ongoing (and given what we do allow to run on, this is unlikely...).
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
16:55 / 17.10.05
Well when i just tried to post on it, i was informed that it was locked.

As far as other examples go i've noticed an increase in people shouting about how threads should be deleted etc because they are offensive or objectionable in some way to a few posters and am concerned that moderators may act over protectively. I feel that people should be encouraged to argue their views within the threads.
I'll grab some examples shortly when my bloody connection stays stable, bloody wireless connection!
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:55 / 17.10.05
And that'll teach me for not reading the posts immediately above yours.

My question still stands, though. There is a process of reviewing the locking/deleting policy, and this thread is part of it. There are plenty of others in this part of the board that contain arguments about why certain threads should or shouldn't be locked, which - again - suggests that it's never something that's put into action without us first considering the consequences of it.

You've made a noise in that thread about over-policing. You've said the same here. You've got one thread as evidence of it, and yet the decision whether to lock it or not was clearly discussed. Personally, I don't feel that there was a single decent argument put forwards for it staying unlocked - the best that's been suggested was that it was preventing other threads from being pulled off-track by sniping, but there's ample evidence that it wasn't doing any such thing.

I don't see how this is out of hand. You're going to have to provide more evidence than one thread if you're going to try and claim that there's a trend of over-moderation here.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
16:59 / 17.10.05
Ok so previous post was in response to Randy. Bloody slow connection!!!

I see your point Haus, sounds fair enough. Interesting though, not sure that just because you start a thread you should be able to have it deleted. Food for thought.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:01 / 17.10.05
Bah. Cross-posting.

Sorry if I'm being a twat about this, but accusations of over-moderation tend to do my tits in because of the tendency to lump all moderators together as one big, faceless mush that has no capability for independent though. Not that you're necessarily doing that, just that it's how these complaints often come across.

As far as other examples go i've noticed an increase in people shouting about how threads should be deleted etc because they are offensive or objectionable in some way to a few posters and am concerned that moderators may act over protectively.

Yeah, okay, but I think if you look at the board more closely you'll find that the actual instances of threads being locked or deleted are far fewer than those where people request that such actions are taken. I can only speak for myself, but I'm not going to be swayed into agreeing a lock or deletion unless I personally can see that the thread in question is damaging to the board - either in terms of its reputation or its functionality - or is causing real distress.

The 'snide' thread, I had no part in locking outside of posting the arguments for doing so, but I believe it *is* damaging to both the board's rep - in that it makes us look like a bunch of pricks who get more out of the shit-flinging than we do the proper debate and discussion and community - and functionality - in that I feel it's serving to help long-standing vendettas stew and also creating new ones.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:11 / 17.10.05
I see your point Haus, sounds fair enough. Interesting though, not sure that just because you start a thread you should be able to have it deleted.

Yeah - I largely agree, which is why I vetoed the move to delete. Locking is more reversible and less impactful, so that one I thought was a reasonabble request. If the thread had been an uncontroversial discussion of Kropotkinism, say, I would not have respected a wish to have it locked by the thread starter, but I think in some cases (and the low stakes of the Convo helps this) it's fair to respect somebody not wanting what is happening at the far end of their thread to be done in their name. You get to respect people's indiviudal feelings more in the Convo, I think. For example, Lord Morgue posted a rant in the Head Shop about how much he hated poor people, and then by the time he woke up and thought better of it it had become a part of the discussion, which made the decision of whether to delete it on the grounds that the person who had created it in the first place wanted it gone against the right other people had to understand the context of the discussion. On a basic level, people don't own their threads or their posts - which is reflected in the need for moderator approval. On t'other hand, they do own their posts more than they own other people's, which is reflected in the ability to make mod requests even in fora one does not moderate. It's a balance...
 
 
Char Aina
17:50 / 17.10.05
i'm a bit uneasy at the locking of that thread too.
it wasnt really my cup of tea but it was working for some folks.

does the thread starter have special rights over this thread, do we think?
i seem to recall that this has come up before and we decided not.

i dont know if granting that authority is always or indeed ever appropriate, but my big fat gut is telling me a thread should be board property once it is a going concern.

i like threads being allowed to live and die on their own merits. in the most extreme circumstances i can see that it might be becessary to, but i dont really see this as one of those cases.

have i grossly misjudged the offence caused?
or is my head too far up my own to see the fueds?
i havent read the board as thoroughly recently as in the past so i accept that i might be slower in identifying the original homes for the bickersniping than the more involved.

despite my ignorance i still suspsect some folks are looking for hate from those from whom they expect it and, in the case of that thread, it is all too easy to find one's self in among the anonyms.

ymmv, etc.
 
 
Char Aina
17:56 / 17.10.05
sorry i missed your post there haus.
i seem to have rehashed similar issues.

it's fair to respect somebody not wanting what is happening at the far end of their thread to be done in their name.
i agree, but i dont feel that a lock is the best way to deal with that.
if a thread starter hates the direction his thread has taken he can always say so in the offending thread.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:53 / 17.10.05
As was mentioned in the thread, the more paranoid (or self-absorbed) members of Barbelith are more likely to read it and assume that everyone is talking about them...

i'm a bit uneasy at the locking of that thread too.
it wasnt really my cup of tea but it was working for some folks.


Fair enough. In which case, you could start a new one; this being the Conversation, I doubt that anyone would mind, and it would push the earlier, funnier one down in the rankings. Therefore, everybody happy.
 
 
Char Aina
19:10 / 17.10.05
i'd rather not, to be honest.
i'll leave it to someone else.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:15 / 17.10.05
despite my ignorance i still suspsect some folks are looking for hate from those from whom they expect it and, in the case of that thread, it is all too easy to find one's self in among the anonyms.

Not here. I'm not sure I'd really care one way or the other, right now. What it boils down to, for me, was that the thread had become everything that Barbelith should not be - a place where people could fire off attacks at others without allowing them the right to reply or having to back those attacks up.

Everybody who's argued for its continued existence has done so while acknowledging that they themselves didn't like it, but saying that others found it useful. That nobody's said "there's nothing wrong with it, I liked it and found it useful myself" suggests to me that even those who were posting on-topic to it know how much of an embarrassment it was.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:27 / 17.10.05
Ah, interesting one - is it worse, then, than a stand-up fight thread, in which members could express their grievances?
 
 
Ganesh
19:43 / 17.10.05
E Randy, I don't mind the thread. I've found it at least faintly useful in the past, for those passive-aggressive venting moments. I'm slightly bemused that it's attracting quite so much ire (I don't think the nature of comments therein has changed sooo dramatically). While I'd hardly slaughter my firstborn to keep it open, I'm definitely tending toward the Uneasy That It's Been Locked brigade.
 
 
Char Aina
19:57 / 17.10.05
the thread was constructed as a place to throw things that might otherwise derail a thread.
the shitfights still happen wherever you hide them, and i think it could well be better to have them in one place.

the main problem folks seemed to have with this thread was the inability to hit back at comments.
see, things is, no one is stopping you.

you might appear foolish if you react large and are not the target, sure.
if it is as clear as folks have been saying where the shit is being flung, though, wouldnt it be fairly easy to see when the "oh, i didnt mean you" defence was full of shit?
if you can tell its you, you can fight back.
if you cant tell its you, it probably isnt.

there might be grey areas, but through communication those can be dealt with, cant they?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:17 / 17.10.05
the shitfights still happen wherever you hide them, and i think it could well be better to have them in one place.

But... this is exactly the point. They still happen. That thread wasn't serving as a lightning conductor for them - which is the only rational justification for it - it was just one more thread for them to place in, only one where it was absolutely guaranteed that they would. It was a tin of Condensed Bullshit, while general bullshit was still being spread everywhere else.

I don't know any more. Hell, there's a bloody good chance that it's just representative of something that I hate about Barbelith currently, and if that's the case then the problem is arguably mine, not the board's.
 
 
Char Aina
20:39 / 17.10.05
fair point.
fights do still happen.
are the folks in the thread responsible for the fights outside as well?
has it reduced their frequency at all?
i would have to check that.

one thing i did really enjoy about the thread is that i could access a hidden world, that of the usually deleted.
that side of it was must-read for me, and was the main reason i clicked the link when it sat high on the forum.
it also provides an invaluable insight into the character of some of my fellow members, allowing me to form more accurate opinions of them.

enjoying the thread need not mean liking or supporting the comments on display, and i certainly dont always think highly of the contributions i take the most from.

i dunno.

the issue seems dead, but i worry that the eagerness to lock indicates something a little worrying about the nature of the board at least as much as the existence of the thread.



oh, and the problem may be yours, randy... but i dont think that should stop you from expressing your concerns.
the board is you and you are the board as much and as litle as anyone else.
that, to me, is (and should be)something pretty damn central to the board and the way it functions.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:42 / 17.10.05

the issue seems dead, but i worry that the eagerness to lock indicates something a little worrying about the nature of the board at least as much as the existence of the thread.


Dark presentiments are fine for users, but, as a moderator, what do you think it indicates, and why is it worrying?
 
 
Char Aina
00:49 / 18.10.05
well, i dont feel that i should have to lose user status to be a moderator; i understand the moderators as members taking part in the running of the board rather than a seperate group.
i wonder what you feel makes me unable to make such comments as a user with some moderation responsibility, especially as i am not a moderator of the forum concerned.
lets delve into that sometime, perhaps off-thread.


on topic;
simply, i worry that the throwaway comments were being treated more seriously than necessary.
i dont think the locking is the end of civilisation as we know it by any means.

my comment to randy that i worry that the eagerness to lock indicates something a little worrying about the nature of the board at least as much as the existence of the thread was, on reflection, poorly worded.

i worry more about the restriction of folks freedom to post than i do about folks feeling free to post snide comments, basically. while this worry is at a pretty low level, i would like a barbelith that didnt allow threads like flyboy's less than i would like one that did.

i saw no one being persecuted or harrassed and, until we do, i think locking is over the top.

do you feel that the thread was an indicator of a prevailing attitude on this board? if so, do you feel it was one that should be nipped in the bud?
would you be able to explain why?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:58 / 18.10.05
I'm not talking about this case specifically because I never looked at the thread and wasn't involved in the decision to lock it, but as a long time Convo mod, if we're now locking and/or deleting the odd thread on there because of content then GOOD. Perhaps should happen more often than it does. It's far too often used for the dumping of brainwrongs just because it's perceived as somewhere where anything goes. Not on my watch son!
< cocks shotgun >
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:02 / 18.10.05
Good soldier.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:22 / 18.10.05
well, i dont feel that i should have to lose user status to be a moderator; i understand the moderators as members taking part in the running of the board rather than a seperate group.

Oh, absolutely - couldn't agree more. One of the joys of our moderation system is that it allows moderators to continue to behave as users. Perhaps I should have said that the set of concerned and engaged members of Barbelith should try to avoid vatic utterances in Policy and Help without backing them up, and that the set of moderators should fit snugly within the set of concerned and engaged users of Barbelith.

Now, in this instance you are concerned about freedom to post being violated, but I'm not sure that it is. Anybody has the freedom to start a new thread with exactly the same remit, right? You could do so yourself. The thread remains visible, and could be unlocked by moderator vote, so I'm not sure freedom has been substantively curtailed.

do you feel that the thread was an indicator of a prevailing attitude on this board? if so, do you feel it was one that should be nipped in the bud?
would you be able to explain why?


That's kind of it. If I felt that, and if I said it, I would probably expect people to expect me to explain what I felt that prevailing attitude is. Since I kind of don't, I probably wouldn't be able to explain why I do.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:52 / 18.10.05
Which is to say, with no dis intended, that "should Barbelith be more/less controlled" is a very big question, and one which deserves its own thread, which could reasonably refer to things in here (there are moderation actions in this thread that I have felt lacked sufficient explanation before action and sufficient explanation after) and things elsewhere, but is a long way outwith the scope of this thread, which focuses on individual moderator actions.
 
  

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