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DC: Identity Crisis

 
  

Page: 12345(6)7891011

 
 
Simplist
02:25 / 17.09.04
Who'd'you think it is then Simplist? I'm interested in this bit, a bit.

Well, I don't know really. It's being suggested on a couple of other boards that it has to be Jean, the former Mrs. Ray Palmer. Standard rules of mystery novels, it is said, require that the killer appear in the first chapter, and that clues as to their motivation be presented at the same time (something about her signing over Ray's patents--don't really feel like digging out issue #1 from the bottom of my stack). Also common is the faked attempt on the killer's own life to throw off suspicion, and the sequence of her being strung up at the end of issue #3 is said to be an example of the ubiquitous unreliable flashback from the point of view of the killer.

Actually the more I think about that theory the less probable it seems. Somehow this all has to tie into the storyline with Calculator, Bolt and the Luthor armor he was trying to steal (and why his teleportation powers seemed to fail on him at a very bad time), Captain Boomerang and his son, the whole mindwiping business, etc. Unless, of course, Meltzer is going to pull that other common mystery trope in which an investigation into one crime incidentally exposes a variety of unrelated backstories much more twisted and arcane than that of the original crime, which turns out to be quite simple and straightforward...

Come to think of it, that does support the Jean theory after all. If that narrative were to play out by the numbers, the actual murders would indeed have been committed by one of the seeming good guys for, it would eventually be revealed, straightforward revenge/money/personal gain type reasons. In the end the murders would turn out to have had nothing whatsoever to do with the mindwipings or the schemes and machinations of Calculator & Co., but the exposure of these in the course of the murder investigation would ultimately result in enormously more carnage and a significantly higher body count than would ever have come to pass if the original killer had simply gotten away with it. Ah, the pathos. On reflection, considering how the story's gone so far, this does seem fairly plausible.
 
 
Simplist
02:43 / 17.09.04
Ah, what the hell, I like my new theory enough to make a CONCRETE PREDICTION:

Jean has it in for the other wives out of sheer petty jealousy that their super-marriages worked out where hers didn't; I'm thinking somehow there's some money in it for her, too. During the (entirely misdirected) investigation, however, the mindwiping comes to the attention of everyone, including the fact that the heroes also forcibly mindwiped Batman, who refused to go along with the idea even when his faction lost the vote. Trust is shattered, relationships ended forever, hero fights hero in all likelihood, etc. Meanwhile the investigation makes Calculator sufficiently nervous that he speeds up the timetable on whatever nefarious conspiracy he's hatching, and the whole world is somehow threatened. Lots of fighting ensues, more deaths, and of course OH, THE PATHOS! when it's ultimately revealed that it was only Jean in the parlor with the molecular destabilizer all along.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
03:19 / 17.09.04
uh....really?

i've been reading this as well, and jean being the kiler seems pretty...um...strange.

this kyle rayner stuff has me reeling...if this is true, i'm going to be one pissed off comics buyer. a flaw in his ring? what? is this star trek or something? WTF.

that captain boomerang stuff has me quite curious, as does the calculator stuff. for half a second, i was contemplating the idea that boomerang's son is the killer to make his dad notice him, but i think i read that story in some other comic.

i dunno...a hero gone bad seems crazy. it needs to be an old villain that has been gone for awhile, but is a well known favorite.
 
 
Simplist
05:06 / 17.09.04
uh....really?

 
 
gridley
12:51 / 17.09.04
Nah, I'm pretty sure Boomerang's son is there because either he or his dad is going to be a future murder victim, leading the other to seek revenge. Given how they've played up how Boomerang is washed up, it'll probably be the son taking up his dad's costumed identity to avenge his father's death.

Earlier I was thinking the killer had to be the Calculator, but now I think the Calculator is just there so that we have access to what's going on in all these villians lives. We'll have a reliable conduit of information when their friends and families and own dear selves start getting victimized.
 
 
diz
15:03 / 17.09.04
DiDio understands the reaction, noting that the story line "in some way shatters the perception of the icons as they existed in a more pure time."

no, no, no. this makes me so fucking angry.

that's not why many of us don't like it. it's not that we're wistful for a more innocent time, or that we've had our illusions shattered for the first time, or whatever. it's exactly the opposite: it's that this has been done before, and done better, and done so consistently for so long that it's getting boring. it's time for something new, but Meltzer's specifically crapping up joycore characters like Sue Dibny who have the potential to be the germ of that new something.

Meltzer and DC are just being so condescending and ignorant it's driving me batty.
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:22 / 17.09.04
So what happened in the latest issue?

I saw the cover with Wonder Woman at her Bondage and Dominating best.

also starting to wonder if that flashback to the hero villian mind switch is a clue where one of the villians actually never left possession of the hero's mind. If so who would be most likely?
 
 
diz
17:12 / 17.09.04
Atom saves Jean. GA calls in Superman for help with detective work on the scene (?), and he's able to help (get this) because he correctly identifies the knot the killer used, because he knows his knots from his years as a Boy Scout. because, clearly, Mister Miracle, the world's greatest escape artist, who's sitting in the room, wouldn't know anything about knots.

anyway, Oracle cross-references the type of knot with the MO of Slipknot, who used to be in the Suicide Squad with Dr. Light. GA and WW go to interview Slipknot in jail with the Lasso of Truth and he knows nothing but it's implied that he's also a big pervert like everyone else in this story.

Batman is working on the issue in the Batcave and he says he doesn't think it's the Suicide Squad. they foreshadow the hell out of Captain Boomerang and his son and Tim Drake and his dad. GA goes to Hal Jordan's grave, and Hal shows up as the Spectre. GA asks him who did it, and Hal says he knows who it is but he can't say anything because God told him not to.

in the most unintentionally ridiculous exchange i may have ever seen in comics, Ollie asks him when he's coming back from the dead, and Hal says he's working on it.

then Lois Lane gets a threatening letter from the killer saying that he knows who her husband is, and she's next. the "S" in "husband" is a Superman logo.

i can't believe i keep buying this fucking thing.
 
 
gridley
18:45 / 17.09.04
Y'know this half-occured to me while I was reading it, but only fully during Diz's recap...

What if Hal is controlling Kyle's ring to make it kill people?

I can't really guess how he would justify that (but then I still don't buy his whole turning evil business to begin with)? Making other heroes better understand what he went through when Coast City was destroyed? Preparing them for some cosmic catastrophe they'll have to fight? Muddled desire to win back his place as the Green Lantern of Earth from Kyle?

Just a thought....
 
 
FinderWolf
19:37 / 17.09.04
One of the few compliments I can give Meltzer re: this series is I have no idea who the killer is, how the killer did it, and where all this is going. A rare thing for a jaded longtime comics reader.
 
 
Mr Tricks
21:49 / 17.09.04
Yeah but do you "care?"

about the charactors, their losses and the hope for their victory. Personally while I'm curious about the outcome of this story (in a rubbernecker sort of way) I can barely bother to flip through it in the store...
the extent of my interest doeasn't really go beyond this thread.
 
 
Warewullf
16:56 / 18.09.04
I'm reserving judgement on this until it's over but I will say that I'm sick of DC's advertising saying how "well- crafted" the story is.

If it's so fucking meticulously sculpted, it doesn't need to be mentioned every fucking month.

("Masterfully crafted" was this month's hyperbole of choice.)
 
 
Warewullf
11:30 / 20.09.04
From Lying In The Gutters:

"Nightwing's" 100th issue is rumoured to be his last (though not officially confirmed as such). This has caused a number of people to see it as proof of the rumour that he's the killer from "Identity Crisis." He also follows the classic murder mystery trappings of appearing in the first issue, with a similar trenchcoat worn by the killer, and all the deaths start on the anniversary of his parents' own demise.

Maybe.
 
 
Mario
12:35 / 20.09.04
Except we already know they're doing a Nightwing Year One after that, then bringing back Devin Grayson for six more issues.
 
 
gridley
12:43 / 20.09.04
the deaths really started on the anniversary of Nightwing's parents' murder? really? I missed that...
 
 
diz
13:14 / 20.09.04
the deaths really started on the anniversary of Nightwing's parents' murder? really? I missed that...

yeah, in issue #1, he's standing at his parents' grave for the anniversary when he gets the call that Sue's dead.

which would kind of make things tricky for proponents of this theory: the call went out pretty quickly - within minutes, not hours. how would Nightwing make it from Opal City to Gotham so quickly?

though i suppose he could have gotten some kind of teleporter, which would seem necessary for the murders anyway.

if this is true, i just don't see what the point would be. i'm not the biggest fan of Dick Grayson, frankly, but i don't see what the point would be of turning him into a generic villain. but, then, i don't see the point of raping and murdering Sue Dibny either, or in turning Superman into the kind of guy who turns a blind eye as his teammates lobotomize people, so maybe i'm barking up the wrong tree here.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:39 / 20.09.04
I think the Dick Grayson theory is bogus. Maybe even a red herring planted by DC as a fake leak into Rich's column. They're going to make one of the oldest, most famous DC characters into a psycho killer? riiiiight. It's far more likely that it be Kyle Rayner (who is sort of unlikely in general also, I think).
 
 
gridley
17:05 / 20.09.04
So how disappointed would you all be if Sue wasn't really dead and this all turned out to be a prank she was pulling to both give her husband a mystery to solve and drop out of the public eye while she raises their child?
 
 
Simplist
18:27 / 20.09.04
That would actually be hilariously satisfying, though you know the fanboy brigade would stage a massive cyber-lynching of poor Brad Meltzer as a result.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
20:55 / 20.09.04
You know, somehow that would make a certain amount of sense...
 
 
rabideyemovement
02:00 / 24.09.04
I've been thinking perhaps it really was Dr. Light... He did vow to go after all their loved ones that fateful night on the satellite. Is it possible that Zee's tinkering split his personality in two? And he did make his escape before the attack on Jean... In any case, boy, is Batman gonna be pissed when he figures out that his mind has been tampered with as well!
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
06:23 / 24.09.04
They're going to make one of the oldest, most famous DC characters into a psycho killer? riiiiight.

Hal Jordan?
 
 
FinderWolf
17:15 / 24.09.04
Yeah, but to do it TWICE, and both with Green Lanterns turning psycho -- seems a bit much.

Having said that, in this week's FLASH, there's a line where Kyle is staring off dejected and brooding into space and says out of nowhere in an awkward way: "We would have been married by now." (while brooding about Sue Dibny, referring to his girlfriend who was savagely killed by Major Force in his first week as GL; his mother having just suffered the same fate by the same villain in more cheesy writing)

I kind of took that as a clue. Please please please don't just make Kyle go psycho for the hell of it, DC. One GL ruined is enough.

For the record, though, I actually thought it kind of worked the way Hal lost it. I just don't want the same trick twice with Kyle, a character who doesn't have much darkness in him. IC is poorly-plotted enough as it is.
 
 
FinderWolf
17:20 / 24.09.04
I confused myself - we were talking about Dick Grayson going psycho, not Kyle. But I think that Dick is too big a character to go psycho, no question - he's A list DC whereas Hal Jordan was B list DC. Kyle is still B-list... and all the rumors about it being Kyle (who else could get past all the security stuff the Dibnys had? but then again, Kyle isn't a master criminal, just a good skilled superhero with a magic ring)

I just want IC to be over already and for us to know the horrible, stupid results. Sort of like the Presidential election.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
12:28 / 25.09.04
I read issue 4, and by the time I got to the final pages, I wondered what had happened in the issue. It was pure filler, and didn't give us anything to further the story.

My opinion on the whole thing is that it is a very well done story that isn't any good.
 
 
rabideyemovement
02:24 / 26.09.04
I'm beginning to think the killer we be outed as Jericho, Deathstroke's son. He's bonded to his father, but can hop bodies and control minds. He says "Contact!" when he does this, which Deathstroke says to the Atom when he hits him with the laser pointer. He could've hopped from Atom to Jean. Explains the whole change in Jean's eye color too. Notice that Deathstroke sits alone on the satellite while everyone else mingles. Look at all the seemingly needless closeups of eyes staring in issue #1... and Jericho showed in Teen Titans a few months back that he has a hatred for all superheroes...
 
 
matsya
06:23 / 26.09.04
I finally read #2 the other day, and you know - it's just not actually that interesting. As much emotional resonance as a M Night Shamalayan film. We're sad. Sad sad and conflicted. Conflicted conflicted and Grim. Grim Grim Grim. Ho fucking hum. I expected the rape scene to be somewhat confronting, but it just wasn't.

dull.

m.
 
 
Triplets
16:59 / 26.09.04
"My opinion on the whole thing is that it is a very well done story that isn't any good."

Does not compute? If a story isn't any good then it's not well done. If #4 is filler than that's not a well done story nor is the story any good. For that reason and that it's really a bit crap.
 
 
Simplist
19:51 / 26.09.04
Does not compute? If a story isn't any good then it's not well done. If #4 is filler than that's not a well done story nor is the story any good. For that reason and that it's really a bit crap.

It's possible to distinguish between different aspects of the overall construction of the thing, with some being better or worse than others. The dialogue, for instance, is IMO somewhat above average for a big bombastic DCU crossover type book, and in that sense it is indeed "well written". The plotting has been somewhat patchy in the specifics, but in the widest view the book is structured reasonably well and moves forward without too much clunkiness--in that sense, "decently written".

Of course there are big problems with some of those specifics--things I suspect were supposed to be clear and obvious are confusing in some cases, such as what the hell was supposed to have happened with Bolt (were his powers suppressed? was he just surprised?). And the just plain stupid stuff--Ralph on a nighttime stakeout with Firehawk, who glows brightly enough to be seen from blocks away; that whole ludicrous Deathstroke fight; [your favorite here]. In those senses, "poorly written".

And ultimately, there's the overall conception of the book to consider--was any of this a good idea at all? Was the direction of the book a daring and original application of shocking ideas to a staid and sheltered shared universe, or was it just deeply, hopelessly misguided? On that level I my verdict is considerably harsher: "abyssmally, even appallingly written".
 
 
FinderWolf
13:53 / 27.09.04
a new theory from Lying in the Gutters -- I read Geoff Johns' Flash and this seems to make a lot of sense to me, except for the fact that Zoom hasn't even been mentioned at all in the IC series thus far...

>> ANOTHER IDENTITY

Gutteratti Dimension Of Continuity writes with his own, thoroughly thought through Identity Crisis theory. And since last week's clearly wasn't, why not give him a go? Dimensions Of Continuity, take it away!

"The key to solving any great mystery is to connect together means, motive and opportunity. Brad Meltzer recently touched on this at the end of Identity Crisis #4. Who benefits? If I am correct, the answer to that question has an enormous twist to it.

"I believe the serial killer is Hunter Zolomon - a.k.a. Zoom. The answer has been there all along.

"Means - Hunter Zolomon made his career as a rogue profiler. He knows the various means and methods super villians use, and it would be incredibly easy for him to replicate their modus operandi as a means of misdirection (so Zolomon's work could move along with more ease). Zolomon is also now a super speedster. As a result, Zolomon can move faster than light; he can bend time. Subverting the intricate security systems would be very easy for him.

"Motive - When Zolomon went insane, he came to believe it was his duty to make heroes stronger through personal crisis. This is why Zolomon killed Wally and Linda's unborn children. However, when the Spectre mind-wiped every person on earth, Zolomon was suddenly left without his personal knowledge of the Flash. As a result, Zolomon began to carry out his original agenda with other heroes. Who benefits? In Zolomon's mind, it is the heroes who benefit. Zolomon killed Sue Dibny to make Elongated Man stronger. Zolomon attempted to kill Jean Loring to make Atom stronger. The threat to Lois? It's a little early to say, but would it truly be hard for Zolomon to determine even secret identities? Zolomon is a profiler, after all; he just never had a motive for profiling heroes until now.

"Opportunity - Just before Identity Crisis premiered, Ashley Zolomon was in a severe car wreck in the pages of Flash. The danger to Ashley awoke Zoom from his suspended state. This was highlighted by Zoom leaving yellow flowers for his wife in her hospital room. Zoom became active right as Identity Crisis started. He's been active through the entire series.

"The piece of the puzzle that allowed me to put this together is the recent release of Flash #214. Geoff Johns went to some pains to lay out the Identity Crisis timeline so that it could be proven Zoom was active in the right time frame. Johns also went to some pains near the end of the issue to lay out how greatly the revelation of the killer will affect both Wally and the Flash. Why? Well, Identity Crisis will have been Wally's fault in a way. But for Wally's request, the Spectre would have not wiped away the identity of the Flash. But for Wally's request, a mind wiped Zolomon may not have targeted the loved ones of unsuspecting heroes.

"So is that the solution to the Identity Crisis mystery? Only time will tell. However, it is a greatly compelling scenario; and the way I would have written it. If true, then DC, Meltzer and Johns have done an emormous job with this. The build up and the answers have been in the DC Universe for quite some time; but you would need to look at the big picture to see things before the final reveal in Identity Crisis. As DC has been telling us all along - Identity Crisis is not just a mini-series; it truly is an event."

Ta da! now, go about your business...
 
 
FinderWolf
14:04 / 27.09.04
>> Explains the whole change in Jean's eye color too.

When did they say Jean's eye color changed? After the attempt on her life?
 
 
Simplist
19:24 / 27.09.04
Pretty excellent post here analyzing the plausibility of ID Crisis as mystery narrative. It's on the long side (though still worth reading), so I'll just quote the conclusion:

1. Sue Dibny appears to have been murdered by Dr. Light. Dr. Light has a motive: he’s unconsciously seeking revenge because some superheroes magically lobotomized him after he raped Sue. The apparent method fits Dr. Light: Sue was burnt to a crisp. But Dr. Light cannot have been the murderer, because Sue’s longs carry no trace of carbon monoxide.

2. Jean Loring appears to have been almost murdered by Slipknot. She was hanged, and Slipknot is known to have hanged his victims. He is also a former boy scout who invariably used a bowline with a Dutch marine twist to anchor his nooses—the very knot used to anchor Jean’s noose. but Slipknot cannot have been the murderer, because he was in prison at the time of the murder attempt.

3. The killer was male, because he wore large brown work boots.

4. Dr. Light and Slipknot are both associated with the Suicide Squad. Some JLA members want to investigate the Suicide Squad, but Batman knows this is a waste of time: the Suicide Squad has no motive.

With the exception of Slipknot’s innocence (his alibi is really airtight), this investigation is an absurd collection of arbitrary conclusions drawn from ridiculous data. All the characters involved, including the so-called World’s Greatest Detective, demonstrate the worst possible investigatory behavior. These superhero detectives don’t suspect anything—they know. As soon as they get a clue that contradicts what they know, they know something else.

It’s generally considered bad form for a locked-room mystery to have a supernatural solution—it’s a cheat, and it’s only fair to the reader trying to solve the puzzle that the puzzle follow clear rules. If the answer is that the killer used a magic spell to teleport into and out of the locked room, that’s a bad puzzle. Setting a mystery story in a superhero universe is like the apotheosis of bad form. Superhero universes (by which I mean the huge universes best represented by the properties of DC and Marvel) have no rules—anything can happen at any time, for whatever bullshit reason the author of a story can come up with. This causes basic rules systems like logic and causation to break down or explode messily when they come into contact with a superhero universe. Solving a mystery in the DC universe is impossible, because there is an effectively infinite number of possible explanations for anything. Green Arrow is right to dismiss the investigation as a waste of time, and Batman is right to focus on motive in his investigtation: in the absence of a riddling villain who deliberately leaves clues to lead the heroes’ investigation, motive is the only aspect of a mystery that might not have infinite possible solutions. But Batman is still guilty of the sin of expressing undeserved certainty.

Ian Brill, writing about audience expectations, reminded me of something I should say in this post. I expect that Identity Crisis is a spectacularly failed attempt to set a soluble puzzle mystery in the DC universe, but maybe something else is going on. Absurdity, arbitrariness and lack of elegance are violations of a puzzle-mystery aesthetic. But is Identity Crisis’s corruption of its apparently attempted aesthetic a failure—or is it a springboard for some tricky thing that has yet to be revealed? We’ll see.
 
 
gridley
13:00 / 28.09.04
I think it's ridiculous to say you can't tell a mystery story (of any sort) involving superheroes. Genres can and should be twisted and bent. You might not like this particular rendering, but it doesn't mean it can't work.

And also, we've hardly seen a fraction of Batman's detective work so far, so there's no way to make any sound judgements about it.

Now, I'm trying to remember some of the superhero murder mysteries of the past. Watchmen, obviously. And there was that JLA two-parter where Mr. Terrific (Terry Sloan) was murdered. Can't remember how well that functioned as a mystery, but I remember it playing up how easy it is to investigate a crime scene when you have the Flash around.
 
 
osymandus
13:58 / 28.09.04
The two storys you site as examples were essinatial well developed using the critera of the charcters used (powers taken ito account, weakness, rational explenations within the confines of the set universes.)

IC, hasnt been , it might as well have been a showcase for minor DC charcters or newbies. Its fine to strech the confines of a charcter . But to omit or reduce entirly certain aspects of a character , just for the sake of your story, hardly makes for enjoyable reading.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:49 / 04.10.04
Lying in the Gutters this week sez that Geoff Johns denied Zoom's involvement months ago. Plus, Zoom has not even shown up in IC.

Here's a theory that looks worthwhile, also from Lying in the Gutters:

>> While T Rath tells me, "I think the Calculator is behind it all. But I don't think the Calculator is doing the killing, just the mastermind. I'm guessing it's Boomerang that's doing the killing. Merlyn is a possibility, as there's a great deal of focus on him, but I think that's just Meltzer trying to use an 'archer' theme with both sides of the narration.

"Take a look at who has been tageted so far: Elongated Man, Atom. We are all guessing, based on the cover to issue no. 5, Robin suffers the next loss. So what about those three is the link to the Calculator? There is none.

"But what if Jack Drake is the intended victim, but not to hurt Robin? What if he's the victim to hurt Black Canary? Jack Drake could be the brother, cousin, nephew et al to Canary's mother Dinah Drake. The bonus is in hurting Batman, though indirectly.

"Plus we have Green Arrow as the narrator, which means, I'm guessing, that Connor is in danger. That would put the victims right in line with the back-up series in Detective that introduced the Calculator. The only one I'm at a loss for is Hawkman. Up to this point, all victims have been introduced. Any connections to Hawkman would have to be brought in now, and that's not murder mystery cricket.

"On the issue of motive/means:

"* Who benefits? Calculator gets the dual benefit of additional revenue plus revenge on the Leaguers he fought in his debut (Atom, Elongated Man, Green Arrow, Hawkman, Black Canary, Batman). Boomerang needs his star to rise again in the villain community, as he's currently looked on as a buffoon. Add to that the conversation between Calculator and Boomerang where Calc says "not after you...", Boomerang owes Calculator for finding Boomerang's son, and Boomerang was a member of the Suicide Squad so it's a simple matter to use the m.o. of fellow operatives.

"* Who has the means? Boomerang claims to have Miraclo - maybe he actually does or something similar enough to boost strength. He'd need it to overpower Sue, who's been shown to be competant in self-defense and Boomerang is, well, a putz, which explains the half-assed attack on Jean. If Calculator is being established as the anti-Oracle, it would be a relatively simple matter to get secret ID's for Canary, Hawkman & Green Arrow.

"* How could the attacker get past the security? A couple of ways - use of the Shadow Thief's belt (he's strung out) or use of the teleporter in the Injustice Gang satellite. I think it's the teleporter. Remember, that was one of the first things the heroes talked about after the killing of Jean, which teleporters were still at large, and we know it works because we saw Dr. Light 'port in.

"I know the Drake connection between Robin and Canary was floated by Dixon and dismissed by DC honchos but I think for a special mini like this, that's getting press coverage, they will reverse course and allow Meltzer to make that tie. However we won't learn that until issue six or seven. Jack Drake's death will be looked at by the heroes as a Batman attack when really it's a Canary attack. The Lois note is a red herring to take the heroes away from Drake. I also think that the killer will be caught when he tries an attack on Green Arrow's kid.

"Remember, Meltzer said he wanted to amp up the bad guys, make them feared. So I don't see a rogue hero, even if s/he's mind controlled. By the end, I'm guessing Boomerang is caught (probably dies before he can give up the information on who the mastermind is), Merlyn may help in his capture/demise to halt the hunt for mask killers, and Calculator is set-up as a premier bad guy.

"All the other 'suspects' - Zoom, Key, Snapper Carr, aren't the way proper murder mysteries are constructed. No suspects that weren't introduced early. So if you didn't see them in issues 1 or 2, they are not the killer."
 
  

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