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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

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08:21 / 15.06.07

Sounds good, although if something sparks a good debate and helpfulness then it should be split off and made into a thread of it's own.

08:27 / 15.06.07

I don't think that's necessarily a bad idea. Though each different situation might call for it's own thread. That seems to me to be specifically magic as "problem solving" rather than dealing with the long terms results of practice.

TTS: I am tempted to say curse them or do stuff to make them fucking well move, but I can understand there's a variety of reasons why you wouldn't want to do that.

08:43 / 15.06.07

1. Dig four holes at the four corners of the apartment block.
2. Pour a mixture of honey, sugar and rose oil into the holes.
3. Douse apartment in petrol.
4. Set fire to it.
5. Batter any survivors with a sturdy plank of wood.

08:46 / 15.06.07

In a similar vein, my initial suggestion was going to be 'Burn the bastard building down!' then I weighed the pros and cons and thought better of it.

Mako- start the thread and see what happens.

08:46 / 15.06.07

Hilariously x-posted with Gypsy.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

08:47 / 15.06.07

I've alredy done Step 4 once last month.

08:59 / 15.06.07

I've alredy done Step 4 once last month.

Try harder?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

09:22 / 15.06.07

Zippy: convincing them I'm not worth bothering about and/or becoming more or less invisible sound proper. I quite likethe idea of a big distraction but I can see that going Horribly Wrong...

*

09:30 / 15.06.07

Me too, and while I tend to to add the get-out clause "unless it would be BAD" to nearly all the moojix I do not everybody likes to tie their hands that way.

Right... I'll think about it, maybe we can look in the lore for instances of the Norse Gods making themselves/others/things invisible or overlooked?

09:30 / 15.06.07

So you want a Clark Kent effect really, mild mannered inoffensive mask to disguise your eyelaserpowerz.

09:36 / 15.06.07

Disguise like Thokk?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

10:18 / 15.06.07

A few. Gods, and also people.

12:01 / 15.06.07

I've already done Step 4 once last month.

Now go to Step 5.

12:38 / 15.06.07

Ma stout plank of wood is +1 vs dickhed!

I'm leaning more toward the 'Sow strife among your enemies' option now after reading more obnoxious behaviour from Allecto's housemates in the rage thread. Get them fighting each other, divide and conquer. Then give cookies to the nice people.

12:41 / 15.06.07

Meh. My inner lolcat is napping. I'm about to rant. Look away now.

RANT

I know it is daunting and one thinks 'why the fuck should I put effort into shifting anyone else's shit outlook?'

As the receiver of not a little stereotype based hatred I can say I'm not down with turning the other cheeck to get it booted down a flight of stairs. I can however say that as a magic worker I know I have the power to cause change in the World and I need to be solid about what kind of change I'm going to make. I personally can't rant about the piss heads out there not seeing people as individuals if I'm not going to bother to do it myself.

There's a power and a strength to conflict resolution, to being the brave one, to say 'look, I see you as a person who is afraid of me or something in the world I remind you of. I am listening to you.' We operate from places of scrunched up resentment sometimes because we sense other people's bullshit and don't want to get involved. Tough luck we are all involved and the illusion of invisibility in the world or of one's self runs the risk of becoming real. Invisibility spells have a habit of wiping people away in isolation when used as blanket statements. There's a difference to being unseen for a task versus for your life.

Me, I learned the way to survive is to wrangle your environment effectively. I'm a complete freak but have networked in my community and done honest work side by side with the other flavors. If you know the way people should behave then you have the obligation to act that way especially when you are a magic worker in a tradition based around hospitality and community.

It's hard and not always fruitful in obvious ways but I swear to you every honest attempt is a piece of magic to improve the world.

/RANT

I'd like to blame the Aikido for these hippy like warm fuzzy approaches but think that would be unfair. I'll get my coat.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

13:09 / 15.06.07

And that's why I smile nicely and wish all my neighbours a good day, even if I suspect them of putting a go-back-to-where-you-came-from note in my pigeonhole, offer to help with bags and pushchairs even if they blank me and try to keep the music down after hours even if three different people were playing three different party mixes till 4am the night before.

/Tangent, sort of related, sort of not...

I don't pretend to be amazingly chummy and sociable. I happen to have genuine problems when it comes to interpersonal relationships, and sometimes I'm simply not capable of striking up random conversations with strangers and forming cosy rapports. This isn't something I'm happy with and it's something I constantly strive to change, since I don't reckon the world really needs another back-bedroom mage with no productive relationship to the broader community. And yet...

Lots of people have problems when it comes to interacting with others. I have them because of my upbringing and past history and can therefore be reasonably expected to work on them and get my shit together, as can most Darque Mages who stand aloof from the Muggle Hordes etc etc etc. But other people may have problems like this because of a psychiatric condition or a developmental disorder. While the advice above is good and sound, a lot of it presupposes that because the person on the other side of the screen is capable of effective text-based interactions, ze will also be capable of effective meatspace interactions. Not everybody can wrangle hir environment effectively; some of us just need to pull ourselves together and get out a bit more, but some others (eg someone with a more severe autism spectrum disorder) just can't. Full stop.

I definately want the Temple to be a place where the average bedroomomancer is challenged to get the fuck out of the house and go dancing, but I sometimes worry about being guilty of a particular kind of ableism. Back on my magic and accesibility kick again, I fear...

13:58 / 15.06.07

It's a vaild point you bring up TtS, and I worry about putting too much emphasis on the person being down trodden to be the bringer of sunshine and fairy dust.

However it maybe more useful to say if you can swing a plank of wood or your personal equivilant perhaps that energy is better directed in a less head smashing way. If social interacting is painful and hard or down right impossible the action which is appropriate for one's range of ability could still be sourced from a beneficial place.

While there are probably some states of ability that exclude any effort on behalf of other people I don't suspect we can speak about those well enough to comment.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

14:11 / 15.06.07

Nah, I doubt it. Just thought I'd raise the topic.

14:59 / 15.06.07

While the advice above is good and sound, a lot of it presupposes that because the person on the other side of the screen is capable of effective text-based interactions, ze will also be capable of effective meatspace interactions. Not everybody can wrangle hir environment effectively; some of us just need to pull ourselves together and get out a bit more, but some others (eg someone with a more severe autism spectrum disorder) just can't. Full stop.

That's a hell of a good point, one I hadn't really thought of. (Worth a topic of its own, really.)

Dealing with assholes is different from dealing with abuelas who are a bit suspicious of the British chick with tattoos and funny hair (if that's even the case).

I may be wrong about this, but it seems to me that putting notes in your mailbox, holding loud conversations near your door, etc. suggests that the hatred these people supposedly feel for you is mixed with interest and curiosity. Rather than merely ignoring you, they're taking steps to interact with you, even if it's in a passive-aggressive way. (It's almost like a boy who punches a girl on the playground to get her attention.) I wonder if that might give you a hook for or some insight into dealing with your situation.

I also wonder to what extent people are engaging in mob behaviour of a sort -- egging each other on to act worse and worse toward you when they're in a group. ("Let's hassle the gringa!") It might be that separating them out and dealing with them when they're alone might be helpful.

One thing I might do in this situation is wait until a person made a snarky comment while I was walking by, turn back, say hi to that person, engage in some light conversation, and then invite him (or her) and any surrounding group to a bar for a round on me. But, again, this may or may not be possible based on your social comfort level.

Best o' luck whatever you do.

15:04 / 15.06.07

XK: Me, I learned the way to survive is to wrangle your environment effectively.

I think these 'personal protective decisions' we make as dependent beings in order to survive have a huge effect on our style of action in the world. Seeing yours written out like that makes me realise it's one of the things I cherish about you, XK. It seems to me you consistently act on your decisions about what you want to see in the world, and use all your skills to make that difference.

15:11 / 15.06.07

Aw shucks SN, but as my eldest sib says I would have made a hell of a serial killer.

What you're seeing is the result of a lifetime of baby steps out from under. I'm glad my impact in the world seems to be so far mostly in the beneficial category. I am honored by your praise and will strive to continue to be worthy of it.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:24 / 15.06.07

XK: what Saturn's Nod said.

I have to admit wrt to my apartment hassle that part of the problem is what I'm bringing to the table. I find it hard to want to engage some of these people in breezy conversation; not just because they're giving me grief but because I've overheard a lot of actively racist statements against the non-European immigrants who also share the building. A lot of the ranting has involved complaints about "sin papeles" (without papers--illegal immigrants), "Sudamericanos," "indios," things like that. Which bugs me. I don't like it, I don't want to hear it, and it does not fill my heart with affection for those involved.

19:37 / 15.06.07

Which bugs me. I don't like it, I don't want to hear it, and it does not fill my heart with affection for those involved.

I hear ya TtS.

A weird piece of magic recently given to me is to talk to the person you wish the other person was ATM. Not like your 80 year old grouch of a neighbor was really Johnny Depp mind you (though I have to try that now for Science, you understand) but talk to the 80 year old who you once saw picking litter off the sidewalk.

So speak to the aspect of the person which resonates with you. The pinched up racist biddy becomes the respected seamstress and so on. Very few people are absolute wastes of ugly bags of mostly water. The fantastic thing I'm discovering is by speaking to that aspect it will often take over the controls and the person will indeed shift over.

if they already don't hold in you in high regard and think you are a bit nutty you have less to worry about.

03:30 / 16.06.07

The thing that dawned on me, reading this thread, is that two different ways of kissing up to the alien neighborhood come to mind:

A) Try your best to do something their way and share it when it should be important to them. (e.g. when in Mexico, trying to make Pan de los Muertos, and share your success - however awkward - with your neighbors on November 2nd)
B) Pick something you're very good at that is representative of a shared category, and share it on your own terms. (e.g. pick a shareable food tradition from your own context, and share it on the appropriate day.)

Either way, what strikes me is significant is that the sharing should be not only because you want to kiss up, but because sharing is appropriate to the occasion. Either you're participating in their sharing context, or inviting them to participate in yours, but either way it's NOT just about hoping they like brownies.

What occurs to me is that which one you choose depends on which seems more useful - proving you want to understand them, or proving you're not so scary.

Does this make sense? Does it go anywhere useful in anybody else's head?

--Ember--

22:34 / 17.06.07

This is astonishing: UFO Conference - NOT a Dr.Who special. Amazing footage.

Warning: It is one and half hours, but worth it. I guess...wait till he gets to the part about Quetzalcoatl - The Plumed Serpent God of the Aztecs.

What the hell are these things? Would anyone care to discuss that video or do people think this is a ridiculous hoax?

10:53 / 18.06.07

It looks interesting from what I've seen of it so far, but clips like the craft seen just before 47 minutes : why are so insistant on thinking it has to be from another dimension/planet when the military could so easily make something like that themselves? Parts like that bug me, but some of the other clips looked strange. Will watch the rest of it later, but I'm definitely 50/50 on the whole thing, and would need way more than video evidence to convince me otherwise.

Mako is a hungry fish

10:53 / 18.06.07

What occurs to me is that which one you choose depends on which seems more useful - proving you want to understand them, or proving you're not so scary.

Don't forget the option that's even more important - showing that you respect them and their culture.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:00 / 18.06.07

I'm getting an odd feeling of skewed perspective from some of these responses. See, the people responsible for the loud anti-immigrant speeches, the nasty note, and presumably the dumping, are Europeans. They aren't that different, culturally, from me. I guess the biggest major differences would be the emphasis on Catholicism and, more importantly, the issues surrounding Catalan identity--which I do respect. It's not like if I moved to Mexico.

13:08 / 18.06.07

Oh and a Public Serive Announcement:

Announcement of the re-emergence of
The Esoteric Order of Dagon

ISSUED BY THE YADDITH LODGE, XXXIII*

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wagh'nagl fhtagn

Notification is hereby given of the Ending of the Period of Silence of the
Esoteric Order of Dagon, and the corresponding commencement of a
Period of Speech of Indefinite Duration.

On the date of the Vernal Equinox, March 20th, 2007 e.v., The Yaddith
Lodge (comprising
Three Ex-Directors) officially confirmed the appointment of Frater Obed
Marsh as the new
Grand Master (a position formerly known as Director, XXIII*), whose
first official act will be
to reopen the R'lyeh Grand Lodge and contact those persons he chooses to
invite into the
revived Esoteric Order of Dagon. The new Grand Master will also be
authorized to
inaugurate new Lodges operated by appointed Lodge Masters.

The new Grand Master acknowledges and agrees to uphold the Structure of
the Temple of
Dagon and the Traditions of the Esoteric Order of Dagon. Details of the
Structure and
Traditions will be found in the first issue of the publication of the
R'lyeh Grand Lodge, the
name of the publication to be determined by the new Grand Master.

Those individuals wishing to receive further information concerning
membership in the
Esoteric Order of Dagon should address their inquires to:

G.'.M.'. Obed Marsh
PO Box 5301
Eugene,Oregon
97405 USA

Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!

The Yaddith Lodge - Esoteric Order of Dagon

Frater Chandraputra Frater Yoh-Vombis Frater Tutulu

Sadly we're disqualified from opening the local Innsmouth chapter. However I just thought of a good chap/ess for the task...

13:37 / 18.06.07

why are so insistant on thinking it has to be from another dimension/planet when the military could so easily make something like that themselves?

Yes, I agree. It doesn't have to be another lifeform. The question then would be, why are they building these craft?

There is footage on that video of thousands of these craft hanging in our atmosphere. What the heck is that? A friend of mine accidentally took some pictures of the night sky, and these spheres had actually shown up in it.

I would like to discuss this without being thought of as a nutjob.

Parts like that bug me, but some of the other clips looked strange. Will watch the rest of it later, but I'm definitely 50/50 on the whole thing, and would need way more than video evidence to convince me otherwise.

Some parts bother me too. This however, is a respected journalist, Jaime Maussan, from Mexico. He initiallay addresses a bit of racism, which I found interesting, because a lot of international investigators where brushing the Mexican goverment's findings on their prejudices and stereotypes of the Mexican government's integrity and competancy.

Are there ways to explain this level of interest as being fraudulent? A bit like "Wag the Dog"? Mexico trying to boost their tourism industry? Or is something really happening? Just for the record, my friend who took those photos of the night sky - ze doesn't live in Mexico.

I just want to know what the hell those things are - real, hoax, alien, human - what!?

13:40 / 18.06.07

I just want to know what the hell those things are - real, hoax, alien, human - what!?

You need to pick up Patrick Harpur's Daimonic Reality: Field Guide to the Otherworld.
It contains very accessible explainations of a wide variety of Forteana and their associated mechanisms. It has lovely pictures.

13:41 / 18.06.07

XK, have you seen the video?

13:50 / 18.06.07

Maybe "what?" isn't the right question. I suppose, as usual, I want to know "why?".

14:39 / 18.06.07

I watched a large chunk of the video but not all of it. I saw the glowy balls chasing each other and the plane. I lost interest from the crappy animations of the elements they kept chucking into the presentation.

I grew up Fortean so I've been to UFO conferences since I was wee and seen UFO's in person with my own eyeballs. I've spent hours watching footage of colored lights and glowy things in the sky and in the water. Many many many hours.

I'm sorry if I sounded dismissive I don't mean to. It's more like I accept these things as a part of reality.

Maybe "what?" isn't the right question. I suppose, as usual, I want to know "why?".

Why what? Why the UFO's exist? What their point/function is? I can answer with my personal opinion if you'd like me to.

15:05 / 18.06.07

I'm sorry if I sounded dismissive I don't mean to. It's more like I accept these things as a part of reality.

I have seen these things too, and so have my friends. So, I proposed to have open communication about it. I appreciate the apology for being dismissive, because it doesn't help that discussion. I mean, am I simply an ill-informed idiot who just needs to go read a book to figure this out? Do most people really, secretly know what these things are here for, why they are here, who they are? Should I?

Maybe "what?" isn't the right question. I suppose, as usual, I want to know "why?".

Why what? Why the UFO's exist? What their point/function is? I can answer with my personal opinion if you'd like me to.

Well, yeah! Please do. You seem to know more than I do.

In a few words, I could sum it up what I believe by saying they live on a different layer of the same onion. Maybe that layer is getting thinner?

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