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DC Universe Surgery

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21:58 / 04.10.04

Speaking of the Millenium crossover, what ever happened to the rest of the New Guardians aside from Floronic Man? I know their series didn't last long, but are the characters still around in the DCU?

13:17 / 05.10.04

>> Most everyone in Smallville was a Manhunter, IIRC. Also Flash's Dad. Somehow I doubt any of it will ever be referred to in continuity again...

LOL...gee, you think? Lana Lang was a Manhunter! Man, that's a good one...

20:33 / 05.10.04

OK, what's a Manhunter?

23:06 / 05.10.04

MANHUNTERs where androids created by the guardians of the galaxy during the universe's early days. They where extremely efficient in carrying out the LAW but had no compassion and little ability to understand the customs and nuances of various species (think of an army of star spanning robotic punishers). Thus the MANHUNTERs where decomissioned and the the GREEN LANTERn corps was created as a replacement.

The MANHUNTERS however rebeled to the concpet of being decomissioned and have since devoted themselves to undermining the efforts of the GL corps as well as the guardians. In the case of the MILLENNIUM storyline, the Guardians we in the process of creating "the New Guardians." The MANHUNTERS, having seen the preliminary efforts in the works, set out to place that project in check by seeding the earth with a variety of manhunters over the course of time.

as I recall...

23:17 / 05.10.04

Lobo's first appearance"

that's right; Orange and Lavender!!!

08:25 / 06.10.04

Yeah, credit Kevin Maguire with Lobo's James Dean look, and Simon Bisley for pushing it over the top into Death Metal land.

14:22 / 27.10.04

There are rumors that DC is planning a big DCU event for 2005, sort of a sequel to CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS written by Geoff Johns and drawn by Phil Jimenez (since his style is all George Perez-influenced). There are also fans pointing out little weird things in various recent DCU stories that might be hinting at this (like the otherwise inexplicable bit in the recent LEGION/TITANS SPECIAL where the Legion says there's a force pounding away at timespace they can't identify).

Rich Johnston has reported on this story a few times. And various DCU editorial interviews keep referring to a really big 2005 DCU overall plan that's been carefully coordinated, the seeds of which are being planted in the comics now.

15:23 / 27.10.04

Hasn't Grant Morrison also mentioned something to this effect?

the return of Crisis in Hypertime perhaps?

21:28 / 31.10.04

I've heard these same rumors, most recently in connection with the current Green Lantern relaunch, which is said to lay some of the foundations for the 2005 event.

00:07 / 01.11.04

Okay, Lobo. Now I don't know much about his origin, but when he first appeared in JLI I remember Mr Miracle saying that he shouldn't be hit as each drop of blood grew another him - what was that about? When did it change?

In L.E.G.I.O.N. #7, Vril Dox chemically "neutered" Lobo so that he'd be a more reliable L.E.G.I.O.N. operative. Lobo wanted Dox dead as a result, but lost to him in hand-to-hand combat and so had to keep working for him. Later, after L.E.G.I.O.N. switched over to R.E.B.E.L.S., Dox released Lobo from his service. Presumably Lobo would be happy to kill him now, but we haven't yet seen him try.

In the Zero Hour LOBO issue, Lobo met a surviving clone from his pre-neutering days who still had the replicating power. This of course led to a Battle of Infinite Lobos, until Dox blew 'em all up except one. Based on what we've seen since then (no clones), the survivor was the original and still can't replicate.

Then, in that Sins of Youth deal, Lobo got de-aged into Lil' Lobo and apparently regained his replicating power. Yet another Battle of Infinite Lobos ended with yet another single survivor, the appallingly-named Slo-bo. I have no idea whether he could replicate, but he eventually got Omega-zapped by Darkseid to the Young Justice 1M future.

Since then, Lobo's reappeared in the Lobo Unbound miniseries and assorted other odds and ends, and (so far as I've seen) can't currently replicate.

That's as much as I know.

17:35 / 01.11.04

sillicondream, you are great. That is exactly the answer that a thread like this deserves.

I find comic continuity hard to keep up with because I rarely follow books having been young and stupid enough in the past to buy everything, even crap, I've become more decerning of late.

So answers like that are great.

18:04 / 01.11.04

What was the deal with the all-blue Superman? He was pure energy in a containment suit? Huh? How did that happen? And who thought that would be a good idea to begin with?

18:25 / 01.11.04

Sorry to jump on your tail COBRA, but also Super-themed...

How far does is weakness to magic extend? Could Constantine or Zatana beat him?

Spyder Todd 2008

04:35 / 02.11.04

I don't know if Constantine could stop the Big Blue Wankern(I don't really know how powerful John is...), but Zatanna certainly could. Anything she says backwards happens, basically, so if she and Superman were going to fight, all she would need to say was "esol" oe "eid" or "peels" and he'd do it.
Of course, if Supes hard her open her mouth, he could use his speed and strenght and smash her instantly...
Unless she had made herself invincible first with her magic...
Basically, if Zatanna was written intellegently, then yes, she would beat Supes. As with most magicians or people weilding the Green K.

Other magic types compared to Superman (in my option, anyway):

Dr. Fate, I'm pretty sure would take him.
Phantom Stranger doesn't really fight anyone.
I don't really understand Dr. Occult, so I don't know about that one.
Spectre takes anyone. Nuff said.
Captain Marvel is the Earth's Mightiest Mortal. He's going to beat him, in my book.
Wonder Woman is an interesting one. Personally I think she might beat him, but any fight they had would just end up in a crazy bondage superhero sex scene....
Golden age Lanturn might be able to take him, but I don't think Alan Scott has ever used his power to it's full potential.
And just for giggles, Dr. Strange would totally kick his ass.

miss wonderstarr

06:38 / 02.11.04

Superman is just vulnerable to magic. That doesn't mean any magic-user would kick his butt...it means it might put them on a level where they'd have that chance. A magic sword can cut Superman, just like a normal fist can bruise Batman. The potential to hurt doesn't mean they would even get the chance to land a blow, and a single hit wouldn't necessarily lay the antagonist out anyway. Once a magician had got that one hit in, Superman would know how the land lay and I think the mage would be toast.

I'm afraid I'm not expert enough in DCU history to think of examples, but I'm sure someone here can pull up instances where a villain armed with Green K has not beaten Superman, and where Zatanna, despite her supposed power of invincibility ("!niw I") has been shafted.

07:34 / 02.11.04

COBRA:
Here's a quick rundown on the Blue Superman thing (from supermanhomepage.com):

After the sun's energy was temporarily blocked during the Final Night (late 1996), Superman's powers faded. He eventually regained his super-powers, but his "Power Struggle" (early 1997) was to a more important change. In the subsequent "shocking" story line, Superman's powers greatly changed to become more energy based. Superman essentially became an energy being with electromagnetic powers, and he donned a new suit able to contain his new form. Hints were given as to possible causes of this transformation, but details were never revealed. The transformation became even stranger when a device split Superman into two energy beings--Superman Red and Superman Blue--with different colors and even different aspects (mild vs. strong) of Clark's personality. Thankfully, Superman was returned to his classic powers and appearance after both Red and Blue expended their energy powers to save the Earth in the "Millennium Giants" story line (early 1998).

Essentially, to drum up interest, DC Editorial decided to radically alter Superman's look and abilities for awhile, and he bacame an electromagnetic superhero. It ended after a year or two and he became the properly short-haired caucasian that he remains today. It is widely regarded as an utterly arsely period in Supermanology (see. 'Superman: Mullet'), but the way Morrison handled his electro-powers in JLA (giving the moon magnetic poles to repel itself against the Earth, absorbing hard light holograms and explosive energy in space, being turned into radio waves by Dr. Light) was always absurd fun.

They've toyed a bit with the idea that Superman might essentially be an energy being of sorts in a slowed state since then, but it's never really gone anywhere.

The only costume change since the Blue thing (that stuck for any period of time) was the replacement of the yellow in his chest-shield with black after the Imperiex War storyline (which was highly enjoyable provided you ignored anything not happening directly in Superman titles or a Wonder Woman issue or two), but it reverted back after a year or so.

ONLY NICE THINGS

07:47 / 02.11.04

I don't think Zatanna's powers work quite like that, insofar as they work at all in any logical way. There are things that she simply cannot do - like return Atlantis after "Our Worlds at War". Generally, I think her demands have to be measurable - so, turning ropes to butterflies rather than an abstract like "Win!" or "Disprove Fermat's Theorem!". If she tried to put Superman to sleep, I imagine the writers would pull something out of their arses about his indomitable Kryptonian will.

Captain Marvel, on t'other hand, can and, all things being equal, will beat Superman in a slugfest - they are on about the same power level, but Superman is vulnerable to magic. Marvel puts Superman down in three or so punches in "Crisis Times Five", but this is a sneak attack at what might be described as a difficult time. In the recent Jeph Loeb atrocity, Superman said as much. On the other hand, Marvel has far fewer long-range weapons than Superman, so go with whoever's book it is.

Of course, Superman was also once defeated by a card trick involving a disappearing 3 of Spades, so...

08:57 / 02.11.04

Hmf. The Big Red Cheese got his arse handed to him by Supes pre-crisis.

10:29 / 02.11.04

Rich Johnston says the big DCU 2005 event, rumored to be a new Crisis, will indeed be written by Geoff Johns, but apparently Michael Turner is attached to draw it instead of Phil Jimenez, as was previously rumored.

I kind of can't stand Turner's art when it's anything more than just covers (and his covers aren't too great usually either)... but DC is going for the 'kewl' artist who will get 12-year olds to buy multiple copies, I guess, to make more money. Idiots...

miss wonderstarr

11:06 / 02.11.04

Captain Marvel might have an advantage over Superman because of "magic", but Marvel is just a kid in a mighty man-suit. He doesn't have the maturity or experience of Superman -- and given that Superman himself is thought of as occasionally idealistic and naive, that's not saying much. Basically, Batson is a big baby.

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:15 / 02.11.04

I can't believe I'm getting involved here, but...

Toe-to-toe, the current wisdom is that Captain Marvel would eventually win out, because his magical nature would adversely affect Superman's invulnerability. However, Superman is too smart to be caught in a toe-to-toe exchange of blows. And as soon as strategy, long-range options, or just plain cheating come into play, Superman's greater ring smarts and greater breadth of powers make him the more likely winner. Also, realistically, he's the franchise.

17:58 / 02.11.04

I'm with kovacs on this one -- it was how it worked in Kingdom Come, if I remember right.

Y'all are forgetting that if Capt. Marvel can be tricked into saying his magic word (oh, yes, we're at that level of discussion), then he pops back into being a 10-year-old boy. He may have the wisdom of Solomon, but he still thinks like a kid.

18:02 / 02.11.04

I'm sure someone here can pull up instances where a villain armed with Green K has not beaten Superman,

He beat up Luthor while being Kryptonite-poisoned at the end of Birthright. No doubt there have been other stories like that, just so we could see the two of them go hand to hand.

And that Conduit guy's main power was shooting "Kryptonite energy beams," though I don't recall how Supes beat him.

and where Zatanna, despite her supposed power of invincibility ("!niw I") has been shafted.

Identity Crisis, anyone?

Also she got flattened by the big ugly undead Atlantean sorceress queen thing in JLA: Obsidian Age, though that was mostly off-camera.

20:55 / 02.11.04

Why did the Guardians (?) give Guy Gardner a ring, when everyone in the DCU seemed to think he was totally fucked?

21:15 / 02.11.04

He was fine until a series of personal tragadies set him on his way.

Plus, the main tester is fearlessness (or was back then) and he is pretty fearless.

00:38 / 03.11.04

One punch in 'Crisis x 5'.

Just like Batman v. Gardener.

01:27 / 03.11.04

Didn't they reveal after the fact that Guy Gardener (or however we're spelling this) had brain damage or something, and that was what made him into an asshole? I've seen him once or twice since then and he wasn't quite so arrogant and off-putting. Shame if it's true; I loved Giffen/DeMatties Guy and just liked the idea that he was a perfectly competent and worthy Green Lantern who just happened to be a social retard.

04:16 / 03.11.04

It was two punches, Duncan. Sucker-punches at that.

07:19 / 03.11.04

Guy Gardener's background;

http://members.aol.com/missywils/melissa/guy.html

miss wonderstarr

07:20 / 03.11.04

Yeah, I was wondering about that "wisdom of Solomon" thing. Captain Marvel doesn't often seem portrayed as someone with millennia of knowledge and experience in his bonce.

Also, re Green K, Superman essentially defeated Batman in Dark Knight Returns when weakened with a Kryptonite arrow and suffering sonic waves/a city-sized dose of electric shock/a beating with an exoskeleton.

Arguably. In that Wayne was the one who "died".

08:08 / 03.11.04

Yeah, but Batman knows that Superman's greatest weakness is his character, also his greatest strength (basically what I'm trying to say, is that someone like Batman will always beat him because of who he is, whereas someone like Marvel will always lose, because of who Superman is).

Could Batmite beat him though?

10:13 / 03.11.04

hang on, if you take a drug designed to give you a fake heart attack in the middle of a fight, and so you intentionally collapse with your hand at the other guy's throat, how is that the other guy winning the fight?

12:59 / 03.11.04

>> Could Batmite beat him though?

YYES YES YES! Batmite & Mxylptlyk vs. Superman & Capt. Marvel!! Written by Grant Morrison and drawn by Ed McGuiness. That's the comic I want to see.

On a different subject, of note is the fact that although Pete Ross became President of the DCU America after Luthor went nutso for the billionth time, over in Greg Rucka's Wonder Woman there's a President who we've never heard of. I guess the DCU had their election and Pete Ross only was Prez for the small remainder of Luthor's term.

miss wonderstarr

18:47 / 03.11.04

Well Gambit, I suppose I was forgetting or ignoring that Batman intended to "die". He did, after all, monologue that he wanted Superman to remember this time when he was beaten. Nevertheless, as has been noted, Batman has the advantage over Superman of cynicism and callousness... in Hush Batman has to count on Superman's boy-scout ideals to win a similar duel.

Some clues to the outcome of a Superman vs Batmite battle might be on offer in Morrison's "Crisis Times 5", with 5th dimension imps against the JLA -- in "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow", Superman defeats Mxy, who I'm presuming is on the same top-trumps power level as Batmite. It's outside continuity, but then, aren't all the best stories.

Perhaps the LOTDK Mills(?) and O'Neill one-off "Legends of the Dark Mite" would provide further evidence.

20:05 / 03.11.04

FinderWolf:
In the wake of Luthor's disgrace and disappearance in Superman/Batman #6, andlikely in light of his dissolving marriage w/ Lana Lang, Pete Ross announced he would not seek re-election (it was in some damn Secret Files thing).

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