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DC Universe Surgery

 
  

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grant
13:45 / 28.02.07
Batman became a vampire in the 1970s and again in the mid-90s, if I recall correctly. During the Anne Rice Golden Years, didn't he?

I'm a little hazier on the more recent version, but I have a distinct memory of the Man-Bat-era Batman having to cure himself of vampirism, though.

Ah. I think this is the Anne Rice-era story.
 
 
John Octave
13:54 / 28.02.07
Dracula? It's my understanding that during the Loeb/McGuinness run of Superman, Dracula bit Superman but was killed by his sunlight-infused blood. I haven't read it, but that sounds like either the best issue ever or the worst.

And there were vampires in John Byrne and Chris Claremont's arc on JLA a few years ago. I've also never read them, and nobody has ever said anything positive about those issues as far as I can tell.

Vampires don't seem to do well in the DCU.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:31 / 28.02.07
Weren't there vampires in the (relatively) recent John Byrne/Chris Claremont Justice League/Doom Patrol crossovaaaaargh?
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
14:42 / 28.02.07
There was a mid-eighties Action Comics annual (IIRC) with Art Adams art that had Superman and Batman facing off against a small town of vampires. The big twist was "hey wow hayseed vampires!" or something like that, but on the whole it was a good book.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:57 / 28.02.07
I seem to recall Booster and Beetle fighting a vampire in the sewers during the Giff/DeMat period of Justice League International. There was a big underground lair with vampire skulls and then the monster-man attacked them.

...

Okay, just had a look. Justice League International #25.
 
 
Chew On Fat
14:59 / 28.02.07

I read that story only a short time ago and wouldn't have bothered only I got it for £3. Usual Claremont superflous wordiness, and was it someone here on Barbelith who said that Byrne can only draw shop dummies?

And what's with the Doom Patrol? If you're going to try to wipe out a classic 60's run and a DADAist 90s run of a team book from continuity why would you do it this way?

"Not like this!" as someone once said.

Back to the subject at hand; in DC's 70s stab at more mature suspenseful comics, there was a run called 'I... Vampire'. I've never read it but kudos to him for the cool hoaky title anyway. No doubt 'I ... Spider' in 7 soldiers is a reference to him. (those 3 dots must have been attached to him by the bald seamsters in a bizarre esoteric operation...) (or was it 'I,Spider'?)

As is becoming clear on this thread, he found the DCU a cold unwelcoming place too. How long has he been in comic-book limbo I wonder?
 
 
Chew On Fat
15:03 / 28.02.07
And come to think of it, we're all forgetting Alan Moore's new take on vampires in his Swamp Thing run. It did a good job of rationalising their stake/running water weaknesses - in a comic-book kinda way.

I'm very querelous this afternoon, but how come so many Vampire stories riff on the horrors of parenthood, as this one does? Tomb of Dracula, Buffy and Anne Rice's books all dwell on Parent-child relationships.
 
 
Hieronymus
15:28 / 28.02.07
The blood of birth and kin, et al. The ties of life.
 
 
The Falcon
15:42 / 28.02.07
Weren't there vampires in the (relatively) recent John Byrne/Chris Claremont Justice League/Doom Patrol crossovaaaaargh?

Alls I know is, there was one called 'Crucifer'.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:51 / 28.02.07
It burns, it burns!
 
 
Billuccho!
16:28 / 28.02.07
Right before they killed Superman off, there were some vampires running around the titles. One was a punk rocker, I think, who was a friend of Jimmy Olsen, but another was a throwback to Nosferatu and Bela Lugosi who bit into Superman but exploded because of all the solar energy that's inside him, or something. Circa Superman #70-72, I'd say.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:58 / 28.02.07
Nice, everyone's bringing back DCU vampire memories that I'd almost forgotten.

And I'll add the Doug Moench-created 70s femme fatale Batman villain Nocturna, who was not technically a vampire but was very vampire-like, as I recall. I've always wondered if the current DC Bats-writers might bring her back someday...Bruce Timm and Paul Dini wanted to use her in the Batman animated series but were always told by the TV censors, 'no vampires on a kid's show.' Then years later, the crappy new Batman cartoon had a direct-to-DVD cartoon called Batman vs. Dracula. Sigh.
 
 
Mario
17:12 / 28.02.07
Wasn't there a vampire character in Scare Tactics?

Oh yeah, and my fave: Vincent Velcoro, from Creature Commandos.
 
 
D Terminator XXXIII
18:53 / 28.02.07
There was a mid-eighties Action Comics annual (IIRC) with Art Adams art that had Superman and Batman facing off against a small town of vampires.

You're thinking of the first annual, written by JByrne. As Mr. Fear might say, Ka-Pow!
 
 
grant
18:58 / 28.02.07
Oo! Swamp Thing! With the underwater town of vampires!

I'd forgotten that. Right around the time John Constantine first showed up.
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:31 / 28.02.07
American Gothic chapter 3 I think. It's in the TPB "MURDER OF CROWS" or the one before...

I remember the "Hayseed" Vampires during Byrne's ACTION COMICS run. I was meant to show Superman's weakness to Magic and Batman's ability to swim in quicksand.

Beyond what's already been mentioned I can't seem to recall any more recent appearances of Vampires. Aside from the Sheeda resemblance in 7 soldiers that is.
 
 
fluid_state
00:23 / 01.03.07
Well, there was the vampire storyline in Hitman, but that was basically a continuation of a character from Ennis' run on Hellblazer. True to form for Hitman, all the bad guys died.
 
 
Chew On Fat
14:57 / 01.03.07
Evil Scientist:

Vampires.

DC Universe.

Whassupwidat?


The question is a good one, and making it a little more specific, do vampires fare better in the Marvel Universe than the DCU?

Our examples above would seem to affirm this. I'd say that vampires in the Marvel universe overall have had as much success in starting a reign of eternal darkness as their DCU counterparts –

ie none,

but 616 would seem to be a little more vampire-friendly all the same.

I would put that down to our friend Vlad Dracul, (VD to his friends?) In every way, Marvel hit on gold when they put him into their line as an ongoing character/ comic.

The Tomb of Dracula run is, in my view, as good an updating and fleshing out of Stoker’s character as could be asked for. (or at least as far as the 3/4 of the original run I've read so far goes) He can be vile, murderous, aristocratic, calculating, savage or Byronically heroic depending on where the story takes him. He's just the type of complex, larger than life anti-hero (posi-villain?) that Marvel did so well in its hey day. Need I go on? I love this guy!

You've really stolen a march on everyone when you've appropriated THE archetypal vampire character as your own and done him so unforgettably. Even the X-men ‘seduction of Ororo’ appearances did him justice. Then, offshooting from their ToD line are Lilith and Blade, who is half-vampire and had the makings of a hot property from day one - goggles and Safari coat notwithstanding.

Obviously DC would only be playing catch-up trying to establish an ongoing vampire to compete with Mr Sexy D. I looked through a Vampire Encyclopedia type book in the 90's and the 3 takes on vampirism which seemed to get the most entries, being fully fleshed out, were Anne Rice, Buffy and Marvel's vampire tales. Although TOMB didn't create its own mythos in the same original way as the first two, it seemed to build on and enlarge the original Stoker creations in a very satisfying way. Wolfman in particular even made Dracula a more interesting character because Stoker’s Dracula grows progressively weaker and less threatening as the book proceeds.

Perhaps all this should be in the Marvel thread, but I’d say it’s the main reason DC haven’t made much headway introducing great vampires – a sort of anxiety of influence.

Looking for reasons within the DCU itself, there is the absence of any really coherent updating of the vampire archetype. Moore’s aqua vampires were certainly well thought out but too weird and just too goddamn ugly to merit repeat appearances.

I was going to say that DC’s heroes tend to be more ‘pure’ and less open to the ‘corruption’ that the vampire represents than Marvel’s deliberately ‘humanised’ more ambiguous characters, but that might be a hard to support with actual examples.

Thinking about Marvel stories and their compatibility with vampires, did you know that two characters created by Neal Adams during his Xmen run - Sauron and the Living Monolith - were both deliberately based on the vampire archetype and then ‘disguised’ so that they seemed to be much more original ideas? Adams said in an interview that he was surprised that no-one had really seen through them up to that point.
 
 
Chew On Fat
15:10 / 01.03.07
And of course one of Batman's very first foes was a 'vampiric' character

...Which admittedly upsets my half-baked thesis above
 
 
Jack Fear
15:41 / 01.03.07
INTO THAT DEN OF WOLVES WHICH I SHALL CALL FROM THE FOREST YOU SHALL BE CAST TO DIE BY THEIR THIRSTY FANGS!

Man, they don't write dialogue like that anymore.
 
 
gridley
19:06 / 01.03.07
It's almost iambic pentameter...

INTO THAT DEN OF WOLVES WHICH I SHALL CALL
FROM THE FOREST YOU SHALL BE CAST TO DIE
BY THEIR THIRSTY FANGS!
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
20:08 / 01.03.07
Burma Shave.
 
 
Chew On Fat
07:49 / 02.03.07
Is it a bird? A plane

I dunno, but something just flew over my head....
 
 
Jack Fear
10:10 / 02.03.07
It's a line from the original 1939 Batman vs. Monk story.
 
 
Chew On Fat
10:49 / 02.03.07
That's a whacked out script.

While we're on the topic. The first two complete Batman earliest adventures collections? Are they an enjoyable read? Can you read much of them at a sitting sort of thing?

Should I get the Batman ones or the Superman ones if I had to make the choice?
 
 
Jack Fear
11:55 / 02.03.07
It's hard to pin down what's so wonderful about those archive editions. The art is often amateurish or even downright ugly; the anatomy is all fucked up, the storytelling is murky, the layouts are crowded—they're working mainly in 8- or 9-panel layouts, and there are horse-choking amounts of dialog and expository captioning that some how still don't manage to explain anything satisfactorily. The stories don't make a goddam lick of sense.

And yet, and yet...

It's the energy, more than anything. These are punk rock comics, outlaw art, 12-pagers bashed out in a weekend by wild-eyed young men out of their minds on booze and speed. There were no rules, no "continuity"—they were making everything up as they went along, throwing in everything they could think of: gadgets, dames, gunplay, vampires, dirigibles, sinister Celestials, Dick Tracy-style grotesques. The characterizations and mood are wildly inconsistent—there was no meticulous planning going into these things; these guys were literally making Batman up as we watched.

I can't read these comics in one sitting, no. They're such a mess I can barely get through the stories at all. They're great for browsing, though, for the sheer profusion of what-the-FUCK moments coming off the page.

Seriously: for Matt Wagner to take one of these tossed-off, meant-to-be-ephemeral stories and expand it into a lovingly-crafted six-issue miniseries perfectly squared with seven decades of ingrown continuity seems to me a textbook example of MISSING THE FUCKING POINT.

As to the Batman/Superman question: I'd go for Batman, simply because the character's pulp roots and setting lend themselves to more outright weirdness. Also, Superman was a two-man operation, whilst Batman (despite being credited to Bob Kane alone) was a collective effort from the outset, with Jerry Robinson and Bill Finger and, later, Gardner Fox all throwing ideas into the mix. It was a mishmosh, a stew, but there were some damn tasty chunks.
 
 
Chew On Fat
15:10 / 02.03.07
I imagined it would be something like that. But you can't beat that OLD-TIME goodness.

I think you've sold it to me there.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
15:37 / 02.03.07
Bob Kane was a wild-eyed youngster out of his mind on booze and speed?
 
 
Triplets
17:54 / 02.03.07
Even Jack himself was young at one point. On Pangea.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
18:42 / 02.03.07
I totally back Jack Fear on the Batman archive editions. They are RAW stuff ~ weird, unpredictable, wacked-out, sometimes hilarious ("DEATH... TO DOCTOR DEATH"), darkly European, energetically urban. The teenage talent and energy, combined with the lack of polished skill, make you feel like drawing comics.
 
 
A beautiful tunnel of ghosts
18:16 / 03.03.07
Bat-Man carries a gun and cracks wise after breaking someone's neck, and he has to help a man whose face has been stolen - the Batman and Detective Comics Archives weren't what I expected when I read them, but at the same time they're far more surreal and visceral than their contemporaries.
 
 
This Sunday
18:41 / 03.03.07
Possibly the most lovely thing about looking at comics from at least a distance of two decades, is that the heroes often become genuinely mad with the era-filter. Gloriously mad and superior, and they often know it and yes that makes for more visceral, absurdly loud adventures.

You simply can't do a Batman story the way it was done in his first fifteen years of existence. You can't do a Captain America or Spider-Man story that way, either, because it would seem sacriligous and offend the sensibilities of what's supposed to be 'good storytelling' or 'character development'. Fuck character development if it means Batman can't shoot werewolves and romance his girlfriend for about half a panel before he has to sneak out and punch someone in the jaw before going back and finishing the romancing... all on the same page.

You can't go back. It's either calm/happyhappy pastiche, or something like Morrison's 'FF: 1234' mini, which was emotionally the same as the Lee & Kirby Fan 4 and pissed people off to no end. At least, it seems that way, but if Farmer can make Tarzan or Doc Savage breathe, lust, kill and be badass again, why couldn't the same be done with Bruce Wayne?
 
 
murphy
13:45 / 20.03.07
I just finished re-reading Grant's run on Animal Man.

First, it was better than I even remembered it being (and I remembered it as being the cat's pajammas).

Secondly, I was left wondeirng what ever happnened to the Beast of Freedom (the new B'Wana Beast). Has he been sen since?

And whatever became of the new Psycho Pirate (Jim Highwater)? He wasn't the fella who had his eyes and brains punched out by Black Adam, was he?
 
 
Rachel Evil McCall
14:00 / 20.03.07
Last I saw Freedom Beast was in the Day of Vengeance Infinite Crisis Special. After the Rock of Eternity 'sploded, the Seven Deadly Sins went amock (amock amock amock amock!) in Gotham, and the Phantom Stranger brought a bunch of mystic-type-heroes there to catch 'em, in particular just waiting for a few of them to get posessed, and then trapping the Sins. Beast was posessed by Anger.
 
 
Mario
14:07 / 20.03.07
Psycho Pirate's continuity is a mess. Several stories have simply been ignored, without explanation.
 
  

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