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New X-Men #154

 
  

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Matthew Fluxington
15:45 / 19.03.04
Magneto having telepathy is junk continuity which should never be taken seriously. If you're being pedantic, you can bring it up, but it really doesn't hold up.

I'm with Flyboy on almost all of his complaints - especially about not clearing up the Xorn annual stuff, or for ever explaining what the hell John Sublime and Dr. Sublime were. That's just sloppy and dumb.
 
 
A beautiful tunnel of ghosts
15:52 / 19.03.04
WRT Magneto, IIRC, the helmet only blocks telepathy in the X-Men movie and someone has already mentioned that Jean's white costume was Dave Cockrum's original design for the character, in much the same way I suppose that during the 40s Wonder Woman briefly appeared in a white costume, which Grant also referenced in JLA during The Key storyline.
 
 
Aertho
16:20 / 19.03.04
More on Kabbalic color codes: Jean's gone through an acension or sorts in relationship to her use of the Phoenix "Force".

She started out Green, which represents emotions and the world of the individual.

Then she got "corrupted" and went red with her Dark Phoenix phase, red's the color of judgment, strategy, and war, and represents the world of the group, the collective, or society.

She hovered there between those worlds when she wore the orange/blue "Jean Grey" costume. They just tilteed her axis from emotional to rational. Orange:Reason and Blue:Magnanimity

Lately though, she's been in the black leather school uniform of NXM, which is the color of understanding and the world of the entire universe.

She ends HCT in white, the color of unity and the absolution of timespace. Here endeth the branches of the tree.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
16:21 / 19.03.04
It just also happens that the colour scheme of thw "White Phoenix" outfit also fits nicely with it being linked to Kether or the "White Hot Room".

Of course, one has to wonder... if Kether is the "White Hot room", then is the "Black Bug Room" the Abyss or something else?

While I do admit that the run overall had some weak points, I don't feel that the Magneto/xorn switch was one of them. I never felt like there needed to be a Keyser Soyze-esque flashback that showed exactly how he set up the Xorn identity. Hell, I'm fairly certian that he wasn't entirely sure how it was pulled off. I'm certian Austin or someone else will devote six issues to exactly where Tau Feng came from and how they were able to use some kind of device to fool Emma into reading false memories (like the one SHE built for Mastermind in the Dark Phoenix Saga, I might add).

*baseless speculation alert* And while I don't necessarily think it *is* him, there is a Phoenix that looks a hell of a lot like Mags, out there in the white Hot Room. Perhaps Xorn manged to redeem him after all?
 
 
CameronStewart
16:59 / 19.03.04
I heard an interesting rumour that he decided on the Xorn switcheroo after Jemas nixed Marvel Boy II, almost as a lashout

There's no more convincing evidence that Xorn was always intended to be Magneto in disguise than the fact that it's in the "Morrison Manifesto" proposal that was reprinted in the back of the first trade collection, which was published long before Grant's alleged falling out with Marvel (For those that don't have the collected editions and haven't read the proposal, in it Grant explains that a major plot arc will revolve around the revelation of Xorn's (called "Experiment X" at that time) true identity, kicking off the "ultimate Magneto story." Tellingly, that passage was blacked out with a big CENSORED stamp when the proposal was later reprinted in the hardcover collection, presumably because they realized they'd let the cat out of the bag).
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:29 / 19.03.04
I can't imagine why the Magneto thing could be consider a "lash out," especially since it's one of the most dramatic and exciting things that happens in the whole run. It was one of the most popular events of the whole New X-Men series!
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:32 / 19.03.04
Of course, I'm one of the few Planet X partisans around here - I think that storyline is one of the best things about the whole series. I enjoyed Grant's take on Magneto, the high drama of the storyline, and the humiation Magneto goes through at the end. #150 was a bit sloppy, but it was still very satisfying for me.
 
 
diz
18:05 / 19.03.04
Of course, I'm one of the few Planet X partisans around here - I think that storyline is one of the best things about the whole series.

i've kind of done a 180 on that arc. i was not a big fan of Planet X at the beginning, but i started getting into it as it picked up steam and i've really started to like it a lot more in retrospect.

the first big hurdle for me was that i really liked Xorn. i was so eager to see where GM was going with him. he had so much promise and potential as a character that it really seemed like anything could happen with him. not to be stupid, but it was kind of magical, in a childlike-sense-of-wonder sort of way.

i also really liked the idea that Magneto was finally D-E-A-D dead and we were able to move on to new issues and new conflicts.

then the helmet came off and the bottom dropped out.

not only was all the potential that Xorn had just gone, just wasted, but all the doors that seemed open when i thought we had moved past the whole Xavier/Magneto thing just slammed shut. i had a really emotional reaction to it. i was upset. i was angry. mostly, i felt cheated, like GM had led me on and i had believed that things really had changed, and then all the best things about NXM (Xorn) were taken from me and instead i was thrown back into the same old shit.

i was not a happy camper. i was actually moping about the house and getting pissy with my girlfriend. but then, at some point, though, it hit me that i was feeling hurt and angry because i was a jaded longtime X-fan in my late 20s, and i had watched the whole franchise get old and tired and repetitive over the years, but then GM had gotten me to believe in Xorn and the potential he had to revitalize the X-universe.

and the characters who actually live in that fictional universe felt exactly the same way.

when Cyclops finally went off on Erik and started kicking him around like a rag doll because he had lied to him, and betrayed his faith in Xorn, i was so with him on some level.

and now when i look back at "Xorn" lecturing Magneto on how wrong he had been about why people really cared about him, i'm with him too.

GM was right about it being the "ultimate Magneto story" because he hit the nail on the head with the core tragedy of the character: so much wasted potential.
 
 
Aertho
18:23 / 19.03.04
Ditto.

I'd like to add that Planet X is the blister finally popping on the ENTIRE run.

As much as I liked Xorn as a character, he'd already done more damage to the stagnancy of the X-franchise BEFORE the helmet came off. He hasn't gone away, he's only changed into an idealism and optimism that permeated hardcases like Angel and inspired psychotics like Cassandra. Xorn had so much potential as a character - and look what Magneto did with it.

So much wasted potential. Didn't Xavier say that about QQ, and then Magneto about Emse?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:50 / 19.03.04
Diz, you are 100% otm in your interpretation of Planet X. I'd go so far as to say that the Planet X is the ultimate X-Men story.
 
 
diz
18:52 / 19.03.04
he's only changed into an idealism and optimism that permeated hardcases like Angel and inspired psychotics like Cassandra.

i totally didn't think about Xorn's effect on Ernst/Cassandra. Magneto inadvertently reformed Xavier's dark side and the person who destroyed his dream in Genosha. my head is spinning.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:02 / 19.03.04
Yeah, I was thinking just the other day about how Magneto never seems to know that one of his students is the creature who wiped out the mutants in Genosha, which is an event meant to trigger his violent attack on humanity, which in turn justifies the usage of the Weapon Plus super soldiers.
 
 
Aertho
19:06 / 19.03.04
And there's my rationale for Cassandra being the genetic construct Weapon Eleven. Everything we think we know about her is memory implants and mutancies stolen from other mutants. She was released and programmed to inititiate the first phase of opening the Weapon Plus Super-Sentinel programme. Of which, she would most probably be the leader. She HATES them mutants!
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:16 / 19.03.04
I'm pretty sure we're meant to figure out that she's Weapon 11. I think there is a deliberate reason why we are never told about Weapon 11. It fits together pretty well, and I figure that's the way it is. It's the most logical explanation.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
19:30 / 19.03.04
Away and shite. We're told just what she is, and she is not a Weapon. She's a birth trauma made flesh. She's been infected by Sublime, when we meet her, and to that extent she serves the same purpose as Weapon Plus (she was of course evil enough to go along with him by her very nature).

Cassie's got the best arc of them all, hasn't she? Mass Murderer truthfuly and convincingly redeemed.

Oh and I realised something I meant to post eariler- Tom and EVA bond off panel at the end. I'm pretty sure that's what Tom was trying to do to "fix" her (I like the insinuation by Sublime she was XIII all along, and Fantomex was just her host).
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:45 / 19.03.04
I don't know why I always wanna call bullshit on that "birth trauma" stuff, it seems so dodgy to me - but I guess you're right, Radiator. Face value, it is. It's always the most simple explanation with this.

I agree that Fantomex was only the host.
 
 
Aertho
19:54 / 19.03.04
How is MASSIVE retroactive continuity "simpler" than the evidence and tell-tale signs of an enemy we learn IN THE STORY that's behind the scenes, moving and shaking every tree in the woods?

The Mummudrai stuff and psychic rescue issue was all planted imagery, meant to devour Xavier's nature with guilt, regret, and surprise. She was a psychological, physical, and logistical trap for the X-Men. And she succeeded almost thoroughly. It was only a trap. And it WAS bullshit.
 
 
diz
20:02 / 19.03.04
Yeah, I was thinking just the other day about how Magneto never seems to know that one of his students is the creature who wiped out the mutants in Genosha, which is an event meant to trigger his violent attack on humanity, which in turn justifies the usage of the Weapon Plus super soldiers.

what's really interesting about that is that once the plan is set in motion, it keeps going under its own inertia, even though it quite literally comes off the tracks in Paris.

- Cassie (Weapon XI) starts the ball rolling by attacking Genosha with Sentinels.
- Magneto is led into hiding and the whole Xorn ruse begins.
- Weapon XIV is sent to infiltrate the school, which simultaneously places them in a position to check Cassie before she goes too far with the Shi'ar.
- Weapons XII and XIII are being moved out of the World, presumably to get them in place to respond to Magneto's eventual attack.

however, Fantomex actively rebels. previous Weapons who were popped out into the real world (X, XI, possibly XIV) seem to have been memory-wiped first. Fantomex, crucially, was not, and he actively turns his knowledge of Weapon Plus against it. he manipulates X-Corp into destroying XII and freeing him.

the Super-Sentinels are supposed to be a team of Weapons XI-XV, but Fantomex has already taken himself and XII out of the picture, and he's gunning for XV. however, all the other parts are already in place and acting out their parts, so there's no real stopping it, since it doesn't seem like many of the pawns even know who they're really working for.

Fantomex, meanwhile, goes looking for Wolverine to recruit him for his little crusade against his creators. he starts to build a rapport with him until Logan's comfortable enough with him to take him up on his offer of going back to the World to destroy XV, which, ultimately, they succeed in doing. in the process, the dome of the World is cracked and the Weapon Plus satellite is destroyed. then Fantomex helps defeat Magneto, pre-empting the human retaliation.

if Sublime is the God of the World, Fantomex is its Lucifer, the rebel angel. he's chaos making mincemeat of the inflexible juggernaut of the will of his Creator, acting entirely out of self-interest and the desire for individuality and in the process setting into motion events that cause a sort of liberating upheaval.

or at least he is until the end of Planet X. i'm not sure where Apollyon fits into this, though i am in the Fantomex=Apollyon camp. he aspires to union with godhood, essentially, and ultimately slays his Creator.

hmm. the Phoenix is an archetypal goddess and a force of chaos and dynamism, whereas Sublime is her counterbalancing force of order and stasis. maybe Apollyon's deal with the Phoenix is just a simple Oedipal thing: he wants to slay the Father and become one with the Mother.
 
 
Aertho
20:07 / 19.03.04
Aside from the Fantomex Oedipus Complex,
EXACTLY.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
20:12 / 19.03.04
hmm...i've always felt the twin sister/mummwhatever was dodgy, too. it just seems a bit TOO hokey and bit too complicated/esoteric for an x-men story. grant is not insensitive to the x-men audience.

i tend to believe she is also a Weapon, and it makes the most sense for her to be 11. Plus, she talks about eradicating mutants all the time...she never says she's a mutant, but she's got all these powers...implanted, manufactured powers? she's not a mutant, but a genetic hybrid...which would be more in line with the Weapon Plus's goal of manufactured warriors killing off mutants...

um...she's definitely hard to figure out...i don't know what it is, but the sister thing just seems like something she SAID, then IMPLANTED into Prof X's mind when she possessed him. or else left in her genetic makeup as a trap for when she put his mind in her body.

weirdness...would be nice if grant would explain her in some interview one day...that's the only plothole i care about at this point...everything else seems to make sense.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
20:16 / 19.03.04
oh, and people keep saying that Weapon 14 (the Stepford Cuckoos) were "sent" to Xavier's by Weapon Plus to spy and whatnot... I don't see much evidence for this... the "plant" was obviously Xorneto.

i seem to remember the line about 14 being failed, too...re-reading the series now, so i'll keep an eye out for that...
 
 
Aertho
20:24 / 19.03.04
Does ANYBODY know what actual cuckoo birds do? They lay their eggs in OTHER bird's nests. When the cuckoo chicks hatch, they instinctively push the other "real" eggs out of the nest to crack and die on the ground.

I KNOW there's a movie about some kids in Midwich, but c'mon! Cuckoos at Xavier's?

RED FLAG THREE YEARS AGO.
 
 
■
20:45 / 19.03.04
Well, it was a bit of a double bluff because we all presumed he meant Stepford Wives. The Cuckoos? Now, I come to think of it, I think it did register, and I've been waiting for them to push something out for years...
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
21:24 / 19.03.04
I know how you feel fluxy- I wish I could call bullshit on Weapon 14.

Not that I'm complaining about 154- mind, a tiny niggle in a wealth of ritches.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:33 / 19.03.04
I don't think that Cassandra being the "birth trauma" of Charles Xavier means that she can't also be Weapon 11. She certainly acts like she was one of Sublime's weapons, up to the part when the weapon ultimately turns against its master and is instrumental to his undoing. The Cuckoos, Fantomex/EVA, Ultimaton, and Wolverine all do their part.

It's pretty obvious now that the mole at Xavier's was Esme, but probably not the other four Cuckoos. I think that she was the only one who was capable of independent thought, and that was intentional. The entire point of the Cuckoos was to infiltrate the school as a student.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:35 / 19.03.04
Also please note that it was Esme who turned Magneto on to Kick, which allowed him to be controlled directly. I think this was part of Sublime's plan.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:37 / 19.03.04
Dizfactor's post about Fantomex is fantastic, by the way. I enjoy Fantomex so much more now that the story is complete and his role is better understood.
 
 
Dicodisco
07:13 / 20.03.04
From www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com

Plot:
The finale of Morrison’s take on the alternate dystopian future (a trope that every X-men scribe must eventually face). Also, Jean Grey is an eternal cosmic being. But an awfully nice one.

Comment:
Your enjoyment of this concluding chapter depends on whether or not you’ve made an emotional connection with Morrison’s virtual future X-men. Silvestri comes up with a gorgeous “meet the team” cover, made poignant because it’s not their debut but their demise we read inside. Me, I knew I was hooked last issue when they deep-sixed the best character of the arc, Ex-Sentinel Rover and I howled (virtually) in protest.

So this endgame scenario worked for me, and it also allowed Morrison freer reign to work out some of his basic concerns from his entire run. Disembodied brain Martha gets more mileage out of her sparse commentary, while we see evidence of the heroic potential even in Xavier’s dark mummudrai, his distaff twin Cassandra. E.V.A., always intelligent, has evolved from helpful machine to quasi-mutant-humanoid, and Beak’s grandson Tito outshines his father in bravery, even earning Wolverine’s praise.

Tom Skylark remains a cipher who is “good with machines,” the Cuckoos are glossed over, and we see no more of the other future X-men who were all presumably murdered last issue. Instead, Logan, Martha and Cassandra manage to unite in talking Jean down from another of her mad Phoenix fugues. Three survivors are equal to one Scott, I guess. This is yet another allusion to past stories (remember when Storm, Colossus, Wolverine and Scott all tried to depower Dark Phoenix enough to slap a power inhibitor on her?), but as usual Morrison gives a totally different spin to the standard plot elements.
At which point, restored to herself, even after all has been lost, Jean fixes everything exactly like a god would. Oh, there’s something about Sublime being an out of control sentient bacteria, a very rushed sequence of how this dystopia came to be (mostly because everyone got depressed after Magneto and Jean were dead), but the real interest is in the cosmic community of multi-species peers that Jean, a “white Phoenix of the Crown,” finds herself among.

She doesn’t seem to really understand it, but she knows enough cut out the dystopia like a causal cancer and regrow a better future for her friends and lovers.

Silvestri excels here; upping the mystery and the sense of whimsy in this surreal Phoenix summit (they all wear the glorious unisex original “I am fire, and life incarnate!” Cockrum design), alluding to pivotal moments from Jean’s past like the M’krann Crystal (the first time she jump-started the universe). The promise of what might have been, had Morrison and Silvestri been fated to spend more time as a team, is thoroughly apparent in this visually stunning issue. Finally there’s some synergy between their divergent styles (and, for long-time readers, many allusions to the last time Silvestri led a tour through Jean’s psyche, as Madelyn Prior died at the end of the Goblin Queen saga). His rather pronounced tendency towards symmetry doesn’t impede Morrison’s view askew concepts, and his work on emotional expression at pivotal moments is greatly improved over previous issues.

Goodbye, Grant. Thanks for the ride.
 
 
Quireboy
10:54 / 20.03.04
Oh Matthew let it never be said that you ever passed up a chance to be overbearing and arrogant.

Magneto's telepathy is as good an interpretation as any for the false meories Emma locked on to - sure it wasn';t referred to but no explantion is offered, and the only alternative is another telepath planted them.

Grant clearly did some digging around the X-men/Marvel archives - AIM, the White Phoenix, etc. Sublime, whatever you say, is cleary similar if not based on That Which Endures - sure there are Apocalpyse references but I think we've been over how the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

You got a lot wrong about Grant's run - so did I and many others. - A lot less of you telling people what they should or should not think would be welcome in future.
 
 
johnnymonolith
12:37 / 20.03.04
Um.... Can I backtrack (slightly) here? Can I go back to the point that Cassandra is not Charles' twin which he murdered in the womb? According to a theory expounded in Howard Bloom's Global Brain roughly 150 million people alive today are the victors in a competition with a ibling that never made it past the embryonic stage. We have seen the dramatisation of this theory in the silent issue where Charles and Cassie fight it out in the womb. The theory Bloom puts forward is certainly a wild one but definitely one that Grant would find hard NOT to use.

Under this light, I do think that Cassandra actually is some sort of psychic fallout resulting from this particular genome battle. And this particular genome battle again mirrors the hidden genome battle that has been going on throughout Grant's run on NXM (apparently).

To take this even further, if I am right then we could say that the universe of HCT is the sibling universe that survived. However, the fact that this particular timeline is so screwed up might point to a psychic fallout ("birth trauma"? "crack"?); so it is quite appropriate that Cassandra is the headmistress of the Xavier Institution. Furthermore, the fact that Jean-as-Phoenix attempts to "heal" this particular wound(?) the way she does (by sacrificing her individual mortal existence in "a future that never existed", to paraphrase Cassandra) adds a poignancy to the character and the concept of the Phoenix that has not been present before.

Is this making any sense, at all?
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
14:03 / 20.03.04
JohnnyMono: Perfect sense. And "The Lucifer Principle" and "the Global Brain" are they keys to Grant's run being crystal clear (for the most part).
 
 
Aertho
16:55 / 20.03.04
The theory's absolute wackiness is what makes it a such believable trap for Xavier. Bear in mind that his original body is underground and looks like an overgrown wasp.

However true the theory may be, you can't just add "mummudrai" to the cause-and-effect system of parts and expect her "origin" to hold up to the light of what we've learned about Sublime's Weapon Plus, Nano-Sentinels, and capability.
 
 
The Natural Way
18:54 / 20.03.04
Haus: Actually, I thought I DID have evidence that you got a bit irritated with Morrison's recurring themes/endings. Not hard evidence, just the memory of grumbling emanating from yr direction on more than one occasion.

Whatever.

Flux: "The call bullshit on birth trauma" thing is you confusing yr tastes with Morrison's, or being incompletely aware of what-Morrison-likes. For the millionth time: Morrison is into Stanislav Grof who is into birth trauma fun. Morrison incorporated these ideas into the end of The Invisibles and they also managed to find their way, albeit infused with a tasty chunk of Tibetan tulpa magic, into 1234.

And then they landed in NXM.

AARG.

I just don't see what there is to debate here. He clearly likes that stuff. He puts it into his comic.

DBC: The Xorn stuff, irrespective of how satisfying this is narratively/dramatically, can be explained away as a load of bullshit drummed up to decieve Xavier. Read it again: it's the contents of the guy's diary/letter to Prof X complete with purdy pictures.

As for all that black hole jazz - p'raps electro magnetic fun can produce similar results. I dunno. It doesn't work well, that's for sure. But, well, what Cameron said, and I'm pretty sure Ethan's been on here confirming the whole pre-planned nature of Mag's arc.
 
 
Aertho
19:33 / 20.03.04
I was babbling and building thoughts over on the Magick forum when I cam to a pretty wacky conclusion about Sublime and Phoenix. Read on, playa.

I don't know if I'm making any sense, but I want to frighten some people a bit. I'm terrified of 2013.

Let's assume for a moment that I'm right, and the universe IS God's way of transforminig into an idea. Now, that sounds really cool until you realize that we're just the egg, or the chrysalis.

Look back through the cards for a moment. Step one, we get the big bang and the first iterations of the fantastic four: gravity, electromagnetism, strong nuclear force and weak nuclear force. Taken together, the universe is formed of interactive and globular "codes" of these quantum forces. The codes develop into atomic parts, then molecules, then actual planets... where the real fun begins.

The combinations of quantum codes continue until the fantastic four become reiterrated into a new form, life. In the right conditions, certain molecules replicate and generate themselves into organic lifeforms. The four become cytosine, guanine, adenine, and thymine, and the quantum forces that maintained the rest of universe sit on the sidelines while life take center stage.

The planet of quantum codes is covered by organic coded lifeforms until the right organism is developed to reitterate the next set of the fantastic four. That's right, humans. Now the codes are memetic, purely conceptual and made of volition, compassion, analysis, and manifestation. Organic code steps to the side to join quantum code while memetic code wildly reproduces itself over the face of its environment.

Now, at each step, SOME, not ALL, of the previous codes are used in the formation of the next stage of growth. Let's assume that hen the ball drops and God wakes up in December 2012, SOME, not ALL memetic codes will be used to create the divine. Some people just blink dead. The monks of Tibet are gone. Religious leaders and brilliant minds are either dead or have parts of their brains dissolved. And with God born, and the cocoon it grew in discarded and still experiencing time, what's the meaning of continued existence? If the rest of the memetic codes step aside to join organic and quantum code, what happens to the rest of us?

If anybody was reading NXM, THAT was Sublime's motivation. He was the personification of organic code, desperately trying to stave off the growth of the divine code by keeping organic code and memetic code in stasis.


So if Jean and Quentin are memetic code parts of the NEW divine(Phoenix) code, is that why Sublime was afraid of new "invulnerable mutants"? Is THAT exactly why he was afraid of his replacement?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:40 / 20.03.04
Wow. That's all I've got to say right now. Wow.
 
  

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