BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


New X-Men #154

 
  

Page: 1 ... 7891011(12)1314151617... 18

 
 
jephyork
22:36 / 22.03.04
Flux writes:
> Unless I've missed something, the title
> of the series is New X-Men: Academy X.

The solicits for issue #2 refer to it simply as "New X-Men"...
 
 
Mario
22:56 / 22.03.04
Last I heard, Franklin traded his powers for a baby sister
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
22:57 / 22.03.04
"though true, the winged figure wrapped in a caduceus/dna twist on his chest could be interpreted a few ways."


For what it's worth, a lot of people mention that symbol in regards to Apollyon only. It's actually the symbol of the U-Men Movement from the moment they're introduced.

I know, that dosen't answer anything in the Fantomex/Apollyon debate, but I thought it was important to note.

As for why the three-in-one were noting that everything was broken as far back as the end of Planet X was that they *knew* in their telepathic/oracular way that the death of Jean/Phoenix was the point at which the world broke.

It seems obvious that had Magneto at the secret whispering of Sublime not killed Jean when he did, that Pheonix would have killed off *humanity*. The Shi'ar were right and she was coming to Judge... and with the extinction gene active (the activation of which was probably the thing that really drove Sublime into action) then Phoenix would have destroyed that which did not work.

Instead she manifests, gets killed and humanity for the most part dies off in the next 150 years. Phoenix comes back thanks to Sublime's manipulations and then begins purging based on his instructions. The X-Men free her and then she judges that which need to be judged, now in this case being Sublime, and goes back and fixes the timeline by getting Scott's heart unstuck.

In fact, really, when you think about it, it was only through the actions of both Sublime and Phoenix that humanity and mutant-kind survive the Judgement of the Phoenix.

I've yet to manage a complete re-read, though so I may be missing or misreading stuff.
 
 
Aertho
23:33 / 22.03.04
It seems obvious that had Magneto at the secret whispering of Sublime not killed Jean when he did, that Pheonix would have killed off *humanity*.

WHAT? The mutant species was registering toxic levels of aggression. It's obvious to ME that Phoenix was going to disinfect the planet of the Sublime consciousness. Sublime was the shit that wasn't working. He wanted to halt evolution completely.
 
 
The Falcon
23:56 / 22.03.04
I actually read Sublime, finally, as an agent of this 'toxic aggression'; "Don't fight him! Don't let him infect you!"
 
 
TroyJ15
00:26 / 23.03.04
We are still missing something!

What is up with Ernst?!?! Magneto made a comment about her being more than she led on! What the hell does that mean?!?! I wonder if the voices Magneto was hearing was the Sublime bacteria from kick egging him on to do stupid things! God dammit! I keep re-reading and finding something new each time!
 
 
Aertho
00:40 / 23.03.04
O h my dear lord. Are you experiencing time in reverse? Am i the first to tell you that we've known Ernst was Cassie since Riot? And Magneto was the first to spill the beans in the story?
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
02:23 / 23.03.04
You're correct, Sublime was the shit that was not working, but it seems that given her natural (albiet Sublime-twisted) tendencies when she does hatch, she may have very well taken out humanity as well... given that the "Extinction Gene" was active.

*shrug* What is "obvious" while stoned, is not always what is obvious by the light of day.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
02:25 / 23.03.04
And let me add, by the way, that I was horribly wrong about Ernst and Cassie. But I'm still not convinced that Fantomex and Apollyon were one and the same. I am kind of curious if Frank Tieri will go anywhere with that in Weapon X, though. (Since that's where Fantomex is poping up next.)
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:30 / 23.03.04
Chesed Oh my dear lord. Are you experiencing time in reverse? Am i the first to tell you that we've known Ernst was Cassie since Riot? And Magneto was the first to spill the beans in the story?

/known/guessed. And wasn't someone from the comic who said Ernst was NOT Cassie?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
11:06 / 23.03.04
One thing that I find somewhat implausible about the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline is that Charles Xavier never came back to the school after retiring as headmaster - I can't imagine that he'd abandon it completely in such rough times. I know, I know, suspension of disbelief and all that...
 
 
Quimper
11:45 / 23.03.04
Oh, but he did...as a sentinent statue.
 
 
The Falcon
11:56 / 23.03.04
And wasn't someone from the comic who said Ernst was NOT Cassie?

No.

I think I copied that (correct) theory from ComiX-Fan for everyone's attention here.
 
 
Aertho
12:22 / 23.03.04
Didn't somebody ask grant or an editor is Ernst was Cassnadra back in Riot, and they vehemently said she was only a little girl with the old people disease? Supposedly to throw us off the track, kind of how Ellis had to deny that Snow was the 4th man?
 
 
TroyJ15
12:40 / 23.03.04
When did this info about Ernst and Cassie surface. I missed that completely. I why would Cassie be in Ernst body? So was that Martha who was in Magneto's head telling him to fuck up?

confusion! I will read "Riot" today.
 
 
Mario
12:43 / 23.03.04
I'm still not convinced that Fantomex and Apollyon were one and the same. I am kind of curious if Frank Tieri will go anywhere with that in Weapon X, though

They'll probably make him the Third Summers Brother.
 
 
Mario
12:48 / 23.03.04
Troy:

Cassandra tells Martha "you can still call me Ernst" during HCT. (Issue #153, I think), mentioning Max Ernst was one of her favorite artists.

The prevailing theory is that Ernst = Psychically lobotimized Cassie in the body of the Shi'ar Guardsman Stuff (as Stuff was a shapeshifter, it's not entirely surprising that she subconsciously shaped his body to resemble hers, but in a childlike form).
 
 
Quimper
13:34 / 23.03.04
Well, it's more than a theory. She says, "me in a synthetic alien body light years from the nearest bloody spare part."

I can't believe none of us realized the Stepford Cuckoos were cyborg WP plants. The name says it all! I can't stop thinking about that stupid teaser trailer for the Stepford Wives remake. Nicole Kidman as Domesticated SexBot.

The Stepford Cuckoos = Austin Powers fembot parts spliced with the DNA of Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen and dipped into liquid time.
 
 
Aertho
14:33 / 23.03.04
Hello? I knew it and got called crazy Followed by gematria nuts who insisted that "n" meant 14
 
 
Quimper
15:15 / 23.03.04
You are right. You did know it, Mr. vMeme. And before I duck to avoid whatever is thrown at me, I admit that I thought N=14. It's just that with all the Qabbala stuff, I though Hebrew...oh, never the f*ck mind :-)
 
 
Aertho
15:53 / 23.03.04
It's cool bro Like I've been saying, I *stumble* on these discoveries when they fall into my trail of thought. I can totally understand what you guys were saying, but it just didn't hold up after I went back and checked my work in the dialogue.

It's all about EVOLUTION folks.
 
 
TroyJ15
03:28 / 24.03.04
"Cassandra tells Martha "you can still call me Ernst" during HCT..."

I'm sorry, man but that seems like a bit of a stretch. Right before that statement she mentions Martha has Alzheimer's, that just seems like Martha is getting her memories confused because she is old and asks to call Cassandra "Ernst" because they were so close originally. If there is one fatal flaw in New X-Men it's that for every stroke of genius in the first half of the run, there nothing but equal amounts of speculation but no REAL fact. I don't deny that 75% of what you guy's have is true but until it comes from Grant's lips the explaination for Ernst and Cassandra seems a little hokey.
And who the hell was talking to Magneto then? Was it the inner-Xorn in him, or The Sublime bacteria fucking up his head...probably both.
 
 
MFreitas
08:00 / 24.03.04
Jesus, Troy! There are already enough unexplained issues! Don't try to deny evidence or add further unnecessary confusion.

Ernst is a reeducated Cassandra in a shapeshifting alien body (Stuff). Period.

On with the show!
 
 
tituba
08:14 / 24.03.04
There's just something that I can't figure out and please, anyone who knows don't reply with a snotty comment, this is an honest, "I-really-don't-know" kinda question. How can Jean be the white Phoenix or any kind of Phoenix for that matter, when she's never even been possessed by the entity? The real Jean Grey was left comatose in a cocoon in New York harbor for two years while the Phoenix piloted a puppet that looked like her. Is the Phoenix in "Here Comes Tomorrow" that puppet and is the real Jean Grey still really dead? And if that is the case then why has Jean been able to use the Phoenix force through out Grant Morrison’s run? Did I miss something, was Jean consumed for real somewhere along the way (I only read the issue of New X-Men that were penciled by Frank Quitely, so I may have missed something)? If anyone knows, would you be so kind...
 
 
tituba
08:53 / 24.03.04
Sorry, I meant to say "I only read the ISSUES of New X-Men that were penciled by Frank Quitely/MARC SILVESTRI"
 
 
Haus, Heart, Home, Hearth
09:10 / 24.03.04
Judging from all the repeat questions and full-blown errors I'm convinced most of the people on this thread have only skimmed through Morrisons run.

Bad, bad people
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
09:20 / 24.03.04
Judging by the general level of repeat questions on EVERY board I think a lot of people have only skimmed the whole of NXM... Things like Ernst=Cassandra were obvious from the first time the special class showed up, we only needed confirmation. Which Cassandra's statement to Martha certainly is.
A lot of the general responses to the run (as a whole) have reminded me why I don't like these types of comics, the expectations of the readers are down in the gutter. The moment a writer expects you to think for yourself and read into the subtext, the themes and the clues then its as though people's brains shut down and refuse to accept that there could be more than meets the eye to the storyline.
This is the symptom of too many years of Chris Claremont spelling EVERYTHING out and X-fans have gotten very very lazy.
 
 
Aertho
11:48 / 24.03.04
I'll handle the Phoenix Force/Consciousness q when I get to work
 
 
_Boboss
12:39 / 24.03.04
lucky us
 
 
TroyJ15
13:00 / 24.03.04
Wow! This board went from friendly to vicious!

uhhhhhhhhhhhh, no. But I read New X-Men more than once and only New X-Men because I liked it so much. I didn't bother with Uncanny or Xtreme shortly after the relaunch. I agree most of what you guys are saying makes sense but the Cassandra/Ernst thing seems a little questionable. I've picked up on clues in the book before but, this seems to lack serious evidence. That's all I'm saying.

And I'm still hazey on who exactly was talking to Magneto. I think it was the kick drug fucking with his head and unleashing that "inner-star" he had. I say we annotate this sucker to get our thoughts together.
 
 
Aertho
13:28 / 24.03.04
Okay, so the Phoenxi Force is actually the immune system for the universe. Don't try to understand the whole pain receptors are this and white blood cells are that -the universe is a vastly different kind of "thing", and the Phoenix "gland" exists to heal it when wacky and time-warping/reality-warping things happen and nothing else is around to heal it. Keep in mind that the Phoenix "gland" exists OUTSIDE OF TIME, and can "look down" into the entire timestream of the universe -DON'T try to rationalize infintie Earths yet. The Phoenix "gland" knows when superheroes are going to solve the problem on their own and doesn't interact unless there's a specific need. Which is the case with Jean Grey.

Plus, the Phoenix can only interact with sentient individuals who are evolved enough to handle the interaction. Think of all minds as poles holding up a huge tent that covers the planet. The poles themselves get higher and higher as individuals evolve until they reach a point where the Phoenix can reach "down" and touch the "pole". Jean was one such pole/mind. The Phoenix tapped her for a reason. She was necessary to reset the M'Kraan Crystal at a specific timepoint in the universe, so the gland had to tap her prior to get her ready to use it.

Jean Grey mutated into a telepath/telekinetic and became an X-Man. As her powers grew, she evolved further, pushing her mind further and further "up" toward becoming a potential access point for the Phoenix. However, when that interaction came, she subcoinsciously leapt out wildly with her powers. She imagined that the Phoenix Force was another individual "mind", and thus generated an entire "mind" and persona using the Phoenix Force-amplified powers. Using herslef as a template, she subconsciously fashioned her own guardian angel -the entity we know as the Pheonix entity(the one that died on the moon). Irregardless of the fact that the "original" Jean Grey body was healing under Jamiaca Bay, the mind of Jean Grey, present in the duplicate, was able to fulfill her mission with the MKraan Crystal.

Now, after the death of the Phoenix entity, it lived on as a "ghost", albeit a ghost with complete access to the Phoenix Force-amplified powers of Jean Grey. After triggering the rebirth of "Jean" in the form of Maddie Pryor, the "ghost" discovered an astral form similar to her own floating above NYC. That was Rachel Summers, a daughter of Jean Grey in another timeline. The Phoenix ghost merged with Rachel and followed her back to her timeline, where it arranged for Rachel to be transported back to its original universe. Over time and several adventures, the ghost manifested to first the Excalibur team to relate its own "imagined" history, and then to Rachel, to say goodbye and merge back into the Phoenix "gland".

After Jean Grey's original body finally woke up, she was informed that she was a separate entity of the Pheonix and thus was fooled from the Phoenix "gland"'s intent for her. After Jean's secondary mutation, Jean evolved to the point where her fears and self-limitations weren't enough to keep her from accessing the amplification of the Phoenix Force. When Xavier hypnotised Jean and "spoke" to the Pheonix Consciousness, he was speaking through Jean's subconscious filter.

I think this clears up the confusion between the Pheonix Force/Consciousness, the Phoenix entity, Jean Grey, Rachel Summers, Feron, Giraud, Quentin Quire, and countless others in the universe who've worn the Phoenix.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
13:35 / 24.03.04
i'm sorry, but the Cassandra = Ernst thing is really plainly spelled out in several ways.

1. Cassandra's mind is shattered and imprisoned in Stuff's body.
2. She is shown sitting in a small child's classroom re-learning things the Xavier way.
3. In the real world, Ernst looks to be an old woman, but of a the height and intelligence of a small child.
4. She exhibits a lot of strange, "knowing," behavior around Magneto.
5. Ernst didn't show up in the storyline until after Imperial. The rest of the Special Class had.
6. Cassandra tells Martha she can STILL call her Ernst in HCT.
7. Cassandra mentions she has been stuck in an ALIEN body.

I think that's quite a bit of evidence.

As for who was talking to Magneto, the simplest answer was that his conscience was talking to him. He created Xorn too well, and in his Kick induced madness, he hears his conscience louder than usual.
 
 
Mike-O
14:04 / 24.03.04
I think Morrison meant to imply that the body found under Jamaica Bay was not only Jean's "original" body, but the same one the Phoenix had also used. Much the same as the body found on the moon by the Proud People was also Jean's body, just reborn. When the Phoenix dies, it is seemingly reborn at a later point in the body of the individual appointed to task.
 
 
Mike-O
14:10 / 24.03.04
Keith Is Still Not Doing Well: Re: Magneto/Xorn -- That, or that Magnus had actually involuntarily created a dual personality in Xorn, as the Sublime entity evoked & concentrated all that was needlessly aggressive in Lensherr (thru Kick), his own conciousness maintained his rational & "goodness" within the Xorn persona... which was ultimately his greatest downfall in Planet X. Self-versus-self... opposites within the same mind... sounds Morrisonian to me.
 
 
Mike-O
14:12 / 24.03.04
Xorn WAS real... as real as Magneto was. But his validity is in mind not body.
 
  

Page: 1 ... 7891011(12)1314151617... 18

 
  
Add Your Reply