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New X-Men #154

 
  

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Tom Coates
07:09 / 26.03.04
I think it's important not to underestimate that Magneto explicitly said that there was something more to Ernst than met the eye and that when he wanted to find out what that was, Angel freaked out and got in the middle of things as quickly as possible. Realistically, either Magneto was wrong and there was nothing weird about Ernst and Angel was just protecting a friend (which would make the whole thing an enormous red-herring), or we're supposed to start thinking more about who or what Ernst is. Given that we then have a character who later says she was Ernst (even if just to humour a friend), who was put into a synthetic body and became child-like and that Ernst shared several physical characteristics with her, I pretty much think it's just something we are expected to go with. I don't really have a problem with it - I love all the unresolved chunks of stuff that Grant's run has left out in the open, and I love the idea that Cassandra and Martha could have formed such a close relationship that lasted across the centuries...
 
 
Haus, Heart, Home, Hearth
08:42 / 26.03.04
Troy, you're an idiot or a troll. There is no skirting around this. I won't even bother to point out the Ernst/Cassandra + Martha relationship as many other people more concise and polite than myself have already done so.

Just accept the fact that if you haven't 'gotten' it despite what everyone has already said that you're not going to. There is no magic thunderbolt waiting to strike and make realise this.
 
 
Mario
10:51 / 26.03.04
So...any comments on my "cosmic chakras" theory?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
10:59 / 26.03.04
Are there still people convinced that Martha is evil or something?

I do hope that some smart writer gets to do some interesting things with Ernst and Martha in the future. There's so much potential there.
 
 
Aertho
11:47 / 26.03.04
You mean Ersnt and No-Girl? I used to think Martha was a baddie for a while... Evil brains are the result of a wrinkle in time and futurama. Now I want to see the world through her cartoon senses.

Don't call people idiots. It's inappropriate and uncouth.

I think your "hypertelepath" theories dovetail into my Phoenix Force/Conscousness "reaching in" one. The Crown Chakra serves as the access point for Omega-level entities.
 
 
FinderWolf
12:02 / 26.03.04
>> I like how Hank kept his old glasses on hand for 150 years just in case.

Just re-read this last night - I've gotta echo that this detail was truly heartbreaking and awesome.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
12:35 / 26.03.04
i'd like to say that the coolest 'wink, wink, nudge, nudge' line of the series was when Cassandra followed up her admiration for Max Ernst and "Europe After the Rain" with:

"...like a future that never happened."
 
 
Aertho
12:51 / 26.03.04
I like that the future was decapitated, and all our knowledge as to what Sublime IS, and that the Phoenix is somewhere in an egg was amputated from the story. We now know more than ANY of the characters, and can't do anything but watch it all happen.
 
 
diz
13:10 / 26.03.04
We now know more than ANY of the characters, and can't do anything but watch it all happen.

sadly, we may also know more than the new writers, and so i'm not so sure i want to watch it happen.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:14 / 26.03.04
I don't know. I kinda trust Joss Whedon and Chris Claremont not to do anything dumb. It's Austen that we've got to worry about.
 
 
adamswish
13:30 / 26.03.04
What happened with Franklin?
(which by the way has nothing to do with the current part of the thread, but I've been away from a computer for awhile)

In Days of Future Past during the escape from the enterment camp he is killed by a sentinal. His death scream combines with his mutant powers and sends him hurtling back in time to the early 90's Marvel universe. There he tries to remake the evironment to how he remembers it from his own timeline & buts heads with his folks (removes Freedom Plaza and puts the Baxter building back), x-Factor(removes there tower block spaceship) & and New Mutants(rebuilds the institute and populates it with his old team mates and a very old Banshee). Meets up with Rachel (Pheonix II, and what happened to her?) and the pair of them head off into the sunset only to be hunted by a mutant called Ahab, Master of the Hounds (and who is the spitting image of Cable, only with more facial hair and name dropping missing leg). The teenaged imprisoned Storm, leading the rag tag memebers of X-men, X-Factor, New Mutants and Fantastic Four resuce the pair and Franklin is told he's merely a ghost, haunting his past.

As re-counted in the Annuals of the relevant titles under the title "Days of Future Present".

I now return you to your regular programmes...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:49 / 26.03.04
(Pheonix II, and what happened to her?)

Wandering yet further off topic, but... having gone back into her future (a rollicking Alan Davis dystopia populated by Marvel UK characters) and sorted out the Master Mold, she got lost in the timestream as an exchange with Captain Britain and ended up as Mother Askani in the Apocalypse-ruled dystopian future the messianic Askani'Son of which was, of course, (dramatic chord) Cable. Her brother one reality removed.

Incestuous, innit?
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
14:56 / 26.03.04
Rachel (Pheonix II, and what happened to her?)

Young Phoenix II Rachel was brought back (sans Askanni baggage) in this month's X-treme X-men.

And while originally Ahab was supposed to be Cable (who was also originally not a mutant) eventually a supporting character from Excalibur was revealed to be the proto-Ahab.
 
 
Quimper
15:07 / 26.03.04
The Scott/Emma scene at Jean's grave is quite brilliant. "These reruns of your grief" takes on a whole new meaning at the end of 154. In 151, Emma is clearly talking about Jean's multiple deaths. But, at the end of 154, it becomes self-referential, at least to the reader.
 
 
petar_g
11:50 / 27.03.04
Some unanswered questions (to me, at least):

1. Why did Jean return immediately from her death on Asteroid M (#148), and yet not from her 'death' in #150? Was there a clear reason why the Phoenix Corps let her return the first time, and not the next?

2. Why was the White Hot Room not really white at all? And what was the significance/importance of the crystal and the purple machine?

3. Was the orphan universe the 616 Marvel Universe? What made it 'orphan'?

4. Did Quentin become a Phoenix host upon his death? Do any of his earlier comments indicate/support this?

5. If Sublime is kick, and controlled mutants through such, then why the concern of them being uncontrollable and therefore dangerous to Sublime's existence?

I'll probably think of some more later............thanks...........

Petar
 
 
Mario
14:43 / 27.03.04
Some unanswered questions (to me, at least):

>> 1. Why did Jean return immediately from her death on Asteroid M (#148), and yet not from her 'death' in #150? Was there a clear reason why the Phoenix Corps let her return the first time, and not the next?

I don't think she actually entered the WHR in 148. Logan only opened the door for her

>> 2. Why was the White Hot Room not really white at all? And what was the significance/importance of the crystal and the purple machine?

"White" modifies "Hot", not "Room". The crystal was the M'Kraan Crystal, from the Dark Phoenix Saga.

>> 3. Was the orphan universe the 616 Marvel Universe? What made it 'orphan'?

I think so. And it was "orphaned" in the sense that the driving force of it's destiny (Scott & Emma?) were missing.

>> 4. Did Quentin become a Phoenix host upon his death? Do any of his earlier comments indicate/support this?

Apparently, although I'm not sure we were expecting it.

>> 5. If Sublime is kick, and controlled mutants through such, then why the concern of them being uncontrollable and therefore dangerous to Sublime's existence?

At a guess, it's because sooner or later, a mutant might evolve that could resist (and hence replace) him.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
14:56 / 27.03.04
I always figured that Beast was able to be directly be subsumed by Sublime as opposed to simply influenced to toxis agression like others is because Hank had figured a lot of what was going on out (like he's doing on the wing of the plane in Planet X) and thus was already home to the "idea" of Sublime. In the end it was a combination of Kick and a sort of "meme" version of Sublime.

Hmmm... Sublime the first Gene vs the strong all-inclusive (the X-Men eventually being home to humans, mutants, sentinels, human sentinel crossbreeds, ect..) idea of "the X-Men" or Xavier's dream. Genes vs. Memes.
 
 
TroyJ15
17:21 / 27.03.04
I'm a troll or an idiot? Riiiiiiiiiiight. Just because I'm trying to gather facts to support a theory that I cant really connect. I've been in agreeance with most people on this forum, so how am I becoming a troll all of a sudden? Last time I checked, Morrison's writing style required us to ask questions and have an open debate. I don't see anything wrong with that and I don't see the point of name-calling especially on something as simple as a sub-plot (not even a main point) to a monthly comic book. That is really uncalled for Micro-Sentinel and I came here to get away from such simple-mindedness, because I thought Barebelith had people of considerable intelligence who could discuss comics without resorting to kindergarten rules. You are the exception, I guess. In other words:


fuck you.

Anyway, I like the point someone made about how we know more than the characters because their future was amputated. Scott will probably (or should I say hopefully) never find out that Jean decided for him and Emma to be together. A Nice thought. (Poor Scott, still not really in control of his life)

I have no faith in Chuck Austen and I get the impresseion that 155 on New X-Men is going to be an attempt to clean up or over-explain everything in Morrision's run. I see Chris Claremont making things even more confusing by trying to add on to Morrison's take. Whedon is the safe bet, he's going to pick up where Grant left off, tell his own story and leave his own mark.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
19:46 / 27.03.04
Yeah, between Austin dealing with the wrap-up of Xorneto in X-Men, the Special Class getting absorbed into Exiles and New X-Men: Academy X, and Tieri "explaining" sublime and the Weapon Plus programme in Weapon X, I figure that Grant's last issue is a good jumping off point.
 
 
The Falcon
22:27 / 28.03.04
Sublime just nudges things; s'not total, cohesive 'mind control'.

That's how I read it.
 
 
Mr Tricks
17:07 / 29.03.04
hmmm... I figured BEAST was most succeptable to SUBLIME because of his "devolution" mutation...
 
 
The Natural Way
17:21 / 29.03.04
Troy, if other people are getting a little impatient with you it might just be because you deserve it. The Cassy/Ernst thing struck a million Lithers as self evident....because it bloody well is.

Not exactly argument I know, but, really, I'm not about to repeat all the points made above. Enough already.
 
 
The Natural Way
17:37 / 29.03.04
Fun thing:

If Bumbleboy's the ambassador to the termids, could Mer-max serve as ambassador to Atlantis and the "Wavelands of the Pacificate"? Eh? Eh?

That's how I'd play it.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:19 / 29.03.04
As Chesed said, it's not nice to say people deserve being called trolls or idiots (unless they're clearly baiting people and being supremely obnoxious, which Troy isn't doing). Play nice, people.
 
 
Nate DaySpring
04:51 / 30.03.04
I'm a bit confused as to why and how Kid Omega was with Phoenix at the end. Also what were the hints that the Three-in-one where part of the Weapon plus project? Thanks for the help. Im new to the board and hope im not asking questions that have been answered.
 
 
tituba
05:52 / 30.03.04
If it is true that Ernst is Cassandra then that would mean that in that one issue were the special class goes on a field trip, two of the
X-Men's most vicious and most formidable adversaries were fucking around in the woods with backpacks, enjoying nature. The Master of Magnetism and The Most Powerful...Whatever Cassandra Nova was, sitting around in some field, talking shit with a group of genetic retards. The woman responsible for the death of 16 million mutants and the guy who could snuff the entire human population with a thought, goin' campin'. And I thought that shit with the Telephone Avatar was bad.
 
 
MFreitas
07:05 / 30.03.04
Yes... yes... of course! We're soooo evil! Let's grab the kids to the woods and slaughter them all!

BWAAHHHAHHHAHHH!!!

And they thought they were going on a camping trip!

(siiighhh....)
 
 
Aertho
11:22 / 30.03.04
Quentin was an Omega-level telepath, given that he was amped on Kick, his brain was tapping into the Phoenix Force/Consciousness. Supposedly an Omega-strength psyche, once matured, would be able to tap into the Phoenix. When he died, his faster-than-light brain cells began to merge with the Phoenix, putting his mind directly in the White Hot Room, where Jean found him.

Google up "Midwich Cuckoos" and "The Stepford Wives". They are films that bear a resemblance in ways to the Five/Four/Three-In-One. By their name alone, the Stepford Cuckoos are implied to be impostors and infiltrators.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:56 / 30.03.04
Note also that when Fantomex apears in the window in #150, Esme (?) says "Weapon 13", rather than either "Fantomex" or "Who the bloody hell's that?".
 
 
diz
12:05 / 30.03.04
Nate DaySpring: also note that when the feeders are closing in on them, the Three-In-One initiate the "Weapon XIV psychic self-destruct sequence" or some such, rather than getting their brain(s?) eaten.

and thank you for being so nice.
 
 
diz
12:12 / 30.03.04
also, on some level the very strong possibility that they've got Emma Frost's genetic material in them somewhere leads one to believe that there's something odd going on there.
 
 
Gary Lactus
14:22 / 30.03.04
Doll: what's so bad about Cassy and Mags enjoying a bit of camping? I know I do. The point with Cassy, is that she's there to underline a New X Approach to the schools problems - y'know, sci-fi reintegration as opposed to frying the enemy with special eye beams.

Why am I even bothering to explain this?

God, I am such a grouch at the moment.

Oh yeah, I noticed the "Weapon 13" comment, too.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
17:21 / 30.03.04
here's a question that can't be answered, but is interesting to think about.

Isn't odd that Magneto (as Xorn) wasn't told that Ernst was Cassandra when he was put in charge of her and the Special Class?

And he apparently NEVER knew that he had been no more than foot from the evil bitch that killed 16 million of "his" people, making Ernst/Cassandra worse than humans (his usual enemy) and, actually, Hitler/the Nazi's (the killers of his other people).

It really makes you respect Grant and his grasp of subtlety in terms of interaction and relationship.
 
 
Aertho
17:33 / 30.03.04
Yeah, and even MORE interestingly, he, as Xorn, was actually able to destroy her.

As a pacifist teacher, Xorn re-educated Cassandra into a new Weapon of X-liberalism.
 
 
diz
00:15 / 31.03.04
here's some thoughts that hit me on my way to Taco Bell.

we've been talking a lot about Sublime instigating round after round of endless fratricidal violence which kept the X-Men locked in the superhero cycle of beating enemies and waiting for them to return, a process Sublime refers to as a "meaningless shadowplay."

NXM opens with Wolverine gutting a Sentinel, and a voice from off-panel (Scott) telling him that he can probably stop doing that now.

as has already been discussed, this sets the stage for most of NXM by establishing the obsolence of the old-school Sentinel, opening the door for the introduction of the new school Wild Sentinels and nano-Sentinels, which in turn is later brought to a head and resolved in the Rover/EVA/Tom Skylark love triangle, and that's the level i've been taking it on.

however, later, Wolverine is revealed to be generation ten of the Weapon Plus program's Super-Sentinels, though, of course, Logan himself doesn't know that and won't until much later.

so, right on the very first page, we have a Sentinel who's ignorant of the fact that he's a Sentinel being reminded that he's locked in a cycle of pointless fratricidal violence with another Sentinel.

i love GM.

---------

also, i had a thought about the Sublime Beast. the Sublime Beast was clearly Sublime manifesting in Hank's body, but at the same time a little fuzzy on its identity as Sublime; he doesn't actually remember everything, etc. i've generally taken that to mean that Sublime doesn't normally manifest on this level of conscious individual identity, that it's normally a more diffused, instinctual consciousness.

i've been of the opinion that Sublime essentially borrowed aspects of Hank's memories and personality to sort of patch over the holes in its sense of identity, and that part of the reason that it chose Hank as its primary host was because he knew more about mutant genetics than anyone alive, and that knowledge was useful to Sublime.

however, i'm kind of starting to think it may have been more than that that caused Sublime to bond with Hank. Sublime's primary motivation is to preserve itself, yes? it's just another fucked up thing trying to survive, or even on some level the aggregate of every fucked up thing trying to survive and pursue its own narrow, ignorant self-interest. it's the same thought (the illusion of self) divided into billions of boxes and repeating itself so loudly that it can't even think and freaking out at the possibility of being replaced (see also the Outer Church as the personification of the fear that joining the Supercontext entails loss of self).

after Cyclops left, Hank basically devoted himself entirely to pursuing two primary goals - keep the Institute and the X-Men going, and to save the human genome from extinction.

in other words, to preserve two things which may have outlived their usefulness. moreover, he's already reached a point of desperation by the end of Planet X - stranded in the middle of nowhere, with no rational hope of rescue, he's obessively scribbling incoherent notes on the wing of the plane with his claws. one can only imagine how bad he would be a few years later, locked in his lab with his best friends dead or departed with the school falling apart around his ears.

given the magickal framework within which GM thinks, and the recurrent theme of possession in NXM, it's hard not to see Beast's decision to take Kick at this point in his life in a sort of Faustian light, as if Hank was in some sense inviting Sublime in in exchange for the power to preserve what he felt needed to be preserved.

i think it's unlikely that he made it knowingly. it's possible that he made it totally unknowingly, but i think it's also worth entertaining the possibility that he made it semi-knowingly. he was awfully close to putting the pieces together. i think he knew on some level but managed to convince himself that he didn't.

it's interesting to note here the effect Kick has had on everyone who tried it up to this point - turning them into some twisted version of some repressed fantasy self blown up to outrageous proportions. QQ wants a cool bad boy image and that image ends up catching like wildfire and nearly destroying the school in some kind of insane punk rock fantasy of teenage rebellion. Sophie wants to be a superhero and valiantly sacrifices her life to defeat the villain. Esme becomes a nastier, younger version of Emma. i was going to say that Magneto becomes a crazed demagogue much like Hitler (who is basically the defining early influence in Erik's life), but that's only half-true. he splits into Hitler and Xorn, his idealism forever warring with his anger and wounded distrust of the world.

so when Beast goes "on the puff," he becomes a tyrant attempting to assimilate, store, control and most importantly preserve all the genomes he can get his hands on, trying to lock them up in his lab and keep them forever and ever for the sake of preserving them.

whoa, wait. there's major foreshadowing in Murder at the Mansion, with his obsessive attempts to store, catalog, and preserve the fragments of Emma. it's the same thing that the Sublime Beast does, on a more immediate scale.

anyway, the whole point of this is that Sublime is the personification of the urge to resist change because you're too lost in the idea of your own self, the illusion of selfhood, to accept your own replacement. however, that urge is inherently sterile. Xavier "wins" the battle with Magneto which has defined him, but now that he has what he thought he wanted his Dream can't deliver the promised Utopia. Magneto "wins" the battle with Xavier, and is in the same boat with the same stagnant end. Scott can't accept that his marriage to Jean is over, and that Xavier's time as head of the school is over, and so he leaves Emma (in a graveyard in autumn, no less) and the school because he thinks he just wants to replay endless reruns of his grief, but that leads to the pointlessly fucked up HCT future.

Sublime's ultimate wish-fulfillment is basically to stop evolution dead in its tracks, and basically just sit on a vat of genetic material forever and ever, and even when he's defeated (and the X-Men get their ultimate wish-fulfillment by fighting to the death of the last man and defeating the Last Bad Guy Ever - c'mon, you know that's what they're all about), all that's left is a barren wasteland. Jean is only able to stop that by breaking the cycle, accepting Emma as her replacement and moving on, sacrificing her own narrow and delusional sense of self-interest in the interest of the overall health of the system. which, i suppose, is the purpose of the Phoenix - cleansing through sacrifice.

oh, and the whole idea that being on Kick is like being in a movie directed by God ties into the recurring theme of memetics and ideas taking on a life of their own (e.g. Magneto on t-shirts, the Xorn meme redeeming Cassie, etc.), in that people write themselves into their own grand narratives of who they think they'd like to be and gives them the power to shape the world accordingly.

---------

finally, another thought which sort of builds on my previous post about Fantomex as a Lucifer figure: scale. the World is a microcosm nested inside the main Marvel Universe, and Fantomex sets the final chain of events in motion by escaping from it and breaking out into the larger universe around him. in the process, his actions lead to the destruction of the World, but also in the process Weapon XV escapes as well and seems to find some kind of fulfillment, and the gods of the World are punished, and so in a sense he fixes it, too. similarly, the Jean-Phoenix escapes the main universe for the next scale-level universe up, and by doing so she's able to fix it. i'm not sure what that means, other than the fact that it seems to be one of those fractal symmetries in narrative that GM's so fond of.

thoughts?
 
  

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