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New X-Men #154

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01:18 / 12.03.04

So I'm reading Riot again... and Assualt, trying to find that qote about Weapon XIV...

If you read the dialogue in a different way, you realize that Martha was ALWAYS No-Girl. Xorn didn't announce "No-Girl", he announced "Martha"... that's why he didn't count her. Ernst is the one talking for her, and tells Basilisk about No-Girl's wish to date him.

And I'm wondering if we should tally the amount of references characters make to "severing heads" or "removal of heads". I noticed that Basilisk stated that they'd find Xorn's severed head later. It's definitely a theme.

01:56 / 12.03.04

Based on the context, it's probably around the same time as the first mention of Weapon XV...maybe in the bar in issue #142?

And you might want to add "losing one's mind" to that list.

07:31 / 12.03.04

Wow, grea finish, althuogh being a scientist, I can freely cringe at the concept of a villainous DNA strand -lol- I might do a special column figuring the scie ce behind that actually, will be fun!

now, for the ESN/Apocalypse/Sublim connection. ESN was the first Apoalypse. After that Apocalypse has used host bodies and just wearing armour that resembles ESN's form (check the Twelve storyline and Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix). Like Apoalypse infecting bodis of other mutants to use as his body. Like Sublime...
Also, notice that we only ever learn any of the individual Cuckoos' names only after thy dose up on Kick?

11:58 / 12.03.04

From what I've read this seems far closer to That Which Endures than Apocalypse. (I agree, Apocalypse could have been a kick enhanced ESN, but not Sublime.) Not that it really matters.

Apart from that it all makes sense - E.V.A's comment about Fantomex, Apollyon's comments about not being whole; Tom's comment about the Beast knowing the Institute like the back of his hand; Martha and Cassandra's comments about No Girl; the ease with which the Cuckoos were able to neutralise Cassandra. Anyway I'll wait until I have the issue before going on...

11:59 / 12.03.04

So what's the last Cuckoo's name then?

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

13:37 / 12.03.04

And of course, looking back at Riot, it's fascinating that the one concept that Xorn never quite grasps is that of "No-Girl" who is pure conceptual.

Magneto's purely conceptual alter-ego not groking Martha's purely conceptual alter-ego.... I dig that.

14:26 / 12.03.04

Re: Xorn and Martha ...And then there's the whole relatonship between the fact that the reader sees two ABSOLUTELY different poles when it comes to mutants in NXM.

Xorn is a powerful mutant with an armored mask on, has no name but his Mutant Name -is purely conceptual, like you said -like Slick's manifested ego. We only see the image of "Xorn" and accept it regardless. We only see the ABSOLUTE IMAGE of Xorn. AND he's a body without a brain.

Martha is a full body amputee in a glass bubble - we see NOTHING in the way of a mask -she's just a brain and a mind and a given name. The one time she does build up a mask, give herself a mutant name, no one recognizes it as her. They don't accept the fact that she's someone other than just-the-brain. We only see the ABSOLUTE TRUTH of Martha. And she's a brain without a body.

14:40 / 12.03.04

I read 154! Send me a "message" if you want spoilers! I got got the preview and read it.

Scrubb is on a downward spiral

16:10 / 12.03.04

I read it too, we got it in the previews pack at work today.

[Cartman] Who wants to touch me? I said, WHO WANTS TO TOUCH ME? [Cartman]

But no spoilers from me, oh no. Y'all can wait the full 5 days for the joy.

17:52 / 12.03.04

Hey spoiler-boys: does Xorn make an appearance? Is he mentioned at all? And who was the 6 foot-plus stranger who shot Emma?

17:55 / 12.03.04

Dear No-girl,

1. There is no mention of Xorn.

2. The 6 foot stranger was obviously Magneto, who was also Xorn.

18:12 / 13.03.04

Hey, didn't John Byrne do this Sublime Entity thing back in Avengers West Coast #47, where that group tries to take control of Wanda (with the pretense that they're trying to help reconstruct the Vision?)

Wow. To go so far as to use previous writer's themes and plots not only from X-Men, but from other Marvel titles they've worked on as well! ( This was probably more a coincindence than anything, but still...)

Waitaminit: JOHN Byrne. JOHN Sublime. John BYRNE. The Phoenix force BURNS. John Byrne used to work on the X-Men!

Grant is trying to tell us that The Sublime entity is in John Byrne!!!

A beautiful tunnel of ghosts

12:23 / 14.03.04

Hank is certainly old and hairy enough to be John Byrne - and he speaks *just* like him...

17:19 / 14.03.04

Is it me or is the whole Apocalypse disembodied spirit thing a rehash of the Shadow King, the much cooler disembodied mind bent on evil...EVEIL! He even takes host bodies and burns them out and all that jazz.

18:22 / 14.03.04

Isn't the IDEA of having host bodies an effing THEME of the X-MEN? I mean, the X-Men are hosts to Xavier's ideology, they are tempted and tested to be hosts to Magneto's ideology. Furthermore, they are hosts to genetic abnormality -without which, they'd be no different than standard humans. I can name three terrifying X-Men villians that use host bodies -The Shadow King, Apocalypse, and Proteus. Legion was host to several personalities. Rogue is host to several mutant powers. Several X-Men were hosts to Brood aliens. Jean is host to the Phoenix Force. The list goes on.

Sublime is, yes, similar to the Shadow King. However, his motivations are much less ABOUT BEING EVIL than they are about survival and evolution -two words that feature highly in the Xavier creed.

19:12 / 14.03.04

Now THIS is interesting: body-swapping and mind-possesion have always been big themes in the X-books. Storm and Emma, Polaris and just about everybody. Besides the three you mentioned Chesed, I can think of two females with body-possessing powers: Malice and Karma, the first of which is a dissembodied mind. Even low-level telepathy can make a mess of you are and what you think of yourself.

How can you say that Sublime is for evolution when his ultimate goal appears to be stagnation of the species and survival for himself? He is going out his way to kill the remaining humans and mutants and replace them with modified Wagners.

Matthew Fluxington

20:49 / 14.03.04

Sublime is just extraordinarily selfish - it's just some "fucked up thing trying to survive." It doesn't only want to make sure that it survives, it wants to control evolution itself. Check the Beast's "maker's mark" speech from #151.

21:00 / 14.03.04

Whiiich bring us full circle. Both the mutants and Sublime (everything non-mutant) are fucked up things that want to survive.
Sound familiar? Yup, two sides that want the same thing without realising it. Let go, remember it's just a ride. The hypercontext takes all.

22:46 / 14.03.04

I think it's a HUGE misinterpretation of Sublime to consider him/it as "everything non-mutant". Mutation is how life evolves, thereby making Sublime the biggest and meanest and nastiest "mutant" EVER.

I think what he maent by the "invulnerable mutants" line is that several mutants -not ALL- are capable of exceeding his grasp. By this, I mean examples of mutants who transcend their genetic origins to become wholly different and inorganic life-forms. Most significant to that is Phoenix -who is pure thought and total telekinetic godhood. But we've heard that raionale FROM GRANT before - in Magneto's "We have become magnetic, unstoppable" speech.

Mutants like Quentin Quire and Phoenix jump past their individuality, collective, and worldwide telepathic minds to percieve the whole picture. And previously, seeing the whole picture was Sublime's only. He's threatened by his replacements, just like all of us.

13:53 / 15.03.04

I came to realization after reading 154! Grant's entire run is summed up by The Cuckoos when they take Quentin Quire down. They say: "...It's all about In versus Out." And that's what this story is summed up as...Something steps in to replace something else. And the genius of this is that Grant has tapped into something that has been glimpsed at in X-books of the past but no one really made it as relevant as New X-Men, that is the real reason a human has to fear mutants...because they are the next step to replace humanity. At the base of things humans dont have to fear the Fantastic Four or Captain America because they are still human, they die out when humanity dies out. But Mutants will still be here.
This in vs. out theme is repeated constantly through New X-Men:

1)Xavier tells Magneto, that should put away their old manifestos and listen to the new generation.

2) Weapon Plus keeps adding and improving their experiments.

3) Jean is replaced by Emma in Scott's love life

4) The old Sentinels are replaced by more dangerous nano-sentinels.

5) Cassandra breifly replaces Charles when she takes over his body.

6)a new genration of X-Men with completely no ideals are breed in the school.

7) U-Men are attempting to desperately to replace Mutants.

I'm sure there is more here I forgot. Any thoughts.

14:24 / 15.03.04

Yeah, the first ish!

CASSANDRA: "Now shut up and be replaced."

There's your whole theme right thur.

Just like The Invisibles, the first ish was a microcosm of the whole run.

Matthew Fluxington

15:05 / 15.03.04

Since this is apparently not addressed in 154 (haven't read it myself yet) - do you think that Sublime speaks through Cassandra in E Is For Extinction and Imperial? It sure sounds like it is. I get the sense that Cassandra was being guided by that force - that she never really was much of an individual until she was reeducated by the Xavier school and became Ernst.

15:16 / 15.03.04

I think you are right. I think Cassie, WP, Magneto and John Sublime were all mouthpieces for Sublime, just like he is trying to do to Jean.

The reason I say this is Magneto's line "Created by Mother Nature to prey upon the human gene, blame her." There is a suggestion there of a lack of free will.

I think Cassie did indeed want to destroy her brother, but trying to accomplish that through the destruction of mutants was Sublime.

John Sublime was obviously just Sublime in human form. And WP is the epitome of the Sentinel program, which can be seen as the ultimate example of the Sublime gene trying to protect itself from day one.

Matthew Fluxington

15:30 / 15.03.04

Mmm. I'm not sure about Magneto - I think that he was a pawn of Sublime, but most of what he said and did was very much HIM. Once Esme got him hooked on Kick, that's when he really started to lose it. I don't think we should cheapen Magneto's character arc by suggesting that he wasn't making those decisions. He was just being led along, that's all. He's responsible for all the things he did, the good and the bad. Similarly, I agree that Cassandra did indeed want to destroy Charles - that was all she was, this creature of hate and power.

I'm not sure about John Sublime. I'm not totally sure if I think he was just Sublime in human form, rather than a very real front for Sublime's plans. I wish Grant had given us somemore background on Sublime Pharmeceuticals.

15:37 / 15.03.04

That's my feeling too.

It's kinda obvious Cass was one of Sublime's main vessels/pawns. Remember the "some are blind predators stillborn in the sewers" quote?

And when Cassandra went to the Shiars, I think she (Sublime) was trying to collect further info on the Phoenix. Otherwise, posing as Xavier, she could have effortlessly used Cerebra to wipe out all mutants, as she tried after when she returned.

In issue 117, when she's about to embarc in the Shi'Ar spaceship, she says: "Imagine the responsability of all that destructive potential. The power to crack the firmament and extinguish suns... Imagine that in the wrong hands.". I think she might as well be mentioning the Phoenix force and not exactly the Shiars. Remember the Shi'Ar had a great deal of information on the Phoenix entity.

Later, in issue 124, during "Imperial", she says another very Sublime-induced thing, namely: "We must save what we can of the Xavier Institute's MUTANT GENE-BASE, in the hope of REBUILDING OUR SPECIES AS CLONES ON SOME OTHER WORLD". That's pretty much what Sublime-Beast did in "Here Comes Tomorrow".

The question remains: how exactly did Sublime control Cassandra Nova? He controlled/used humans, because he was present in every one of them; he controlled/used mutants through Kick; but what about Cassandra? We don't see her taking Kick, though we see her injecting herself with nanosentinels.

More liquid for the think tank...

15:49 / 15.03.04

I'm positive JOHN Sublime didn't see himself as THE Sublime entity. He was a mere vessel/pawn, as could be any human Sublime chose to, just like DR.Sublime. His speech pattern belonged to a megalomaniac, not to someone REALLY in control.

I think the only sentient Sublime in the whole run is Beast, either because of a long exposure to Kick (150 years is a long time) or because Sublime saw it fit -- who better to genetically manipulate the entire mutant gene-base than Dr. Henry McCoy?

But before I finish, let me pose another question:

Wasn't it just TOO convenient Cyclops went to Tibet to pick up Xorn's help? Think about it...
(I think I have that covered, but I'd like to hear your opinion first

)

16:01 / 15.03.04

Question: how exactly did Sublime control Cassandra Nova?

Answer we see her injecting herself with nanosentinels

Unless I'm mistaken, the nanosentinels came from Weapon Plus...and Sublime was behind that, too.

16:09 / 15.03.04

Hi, Mario (from Mário to Mario)

Yes, that's true. But I don't think the nanosentinels were means of control/influence, otherwise Sublime could have controled every X-Men, because they were contaminated with nanosentinels, remember?

16:35 / 15.03.04

By the mere names alone -- John Sublime and Dr. Sublime -- we can certainly assume that these were human iterations of the Sublime entity. Whether these were once people who were taken over, or if they were born with the Sublime gene dominating their thoughts, actions and lives, doesn't really matter. If they were self-aware of being the Sublime entity OR if their thoughts and actions were directed subconciously by the Sublime entity, they were still him. It's like God writing the books of the apostles through the apostles in Catholicism.

So, to answer how Sublime manipulated Cassie, he did it through Weapon Plus and through Sublime Pharmaceuticals. It was said that the U-Men were part of her plan to weaken the X-Men before she returned from space. So she is connected to them. Cassie was clearly connected to WP through her access to nanosentinels and especially the forgotten Master Mold. I wouldn't be surprised if Cassie was raised by WP, but THAT (Cassie origin after the sewers) will be one of those things not addressed before the finale.

So, they conspired together--Cassie, John Sublime and Weapon Plus. John Sublime and WP were a direct mouthpiece for the Sublime entity, conciously or unconciously.

I think it's cool that Cassie mentions "cracking the firmament" in ref to the Shiar, and then the firmament is cracked at the end of Planet X.

16:46 / 15.03.04

And about Mags. I didn't mean he was being totally controlled by the Sublime entity. Just like Cassie, most of Eriks's action were very much Erik. And just like Cassie's hatred of Charles, Magneto's character was what Sublime used to manipulate Magneto.

We have to remember how Grant sees telepathy and mind control, especially evident with Quentin. He used subtle, telepathic nudging to make people do what he wanted. Morrison's telepaths and thought dictators have been sneaky and subtle at many parts of the run, like when Quentin planted the idea in the human gang to walk by the alley the Omega Gang was hiding in. That's how I see Sublime's influence on Cassie and Magneto, much moreso Magneto b/c of all the Kick.

Plus, and I haven't read the issue, but I believe there is mention of Sublime being fairly directly responsible for one of Magnetos' actions.

17:35 / 15.03.04

True, I'm not saying that the sentinels themselves were Sublime...but it wouldn't surprise me if they were suspended in an "organic substrate" which was very similar to Kick

Matthew Fluxington

17:36 / 15.03.04

Hey since no one who's read the issue yet has really commented on it in detail, could everyone agree not to talk about the scene with Quentin in 154 until the issue comes out for real? It's the only major thing I have to look forward to, and if you write about it here, I'm just not strong enough to avoid reading the spoiler. Thanx!

17:46 / 15.03.04

I just remembered one of the persons who actually read the issue (Troy)DENIED the Cuckoos were mentioned as Weapon 14. Moreso, EVA was refered to as a Sublime's creation, more likely the REAL Weapon 14, as speculated before (I can see Chesed having a seizure

)

Different interpretations or a possible sloppy reading (I couldn't really see any sense in the 'Cuckoos as Weapon 14' revelation)?

20:13 / 15.03.04

Well, as EVA is part of Fantomex, and Fantomex is Weapon XIII, I'd assume she's also Weapon XIII.

20:28 / 15.03.04

Can't we class anyone who took Kick as being under the influence of Sublime somehow?
Beast takes it to a Nth degree but Magneto's absurd megalomania is happily explained with Kick usage, Quentin's schoolyard revolution, even the Cuckoo's last minute save could have started them on the road to becoming the Three-in-one (as it starts the dissolution of their hive mind).

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