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New X-Men #154

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14:38 / 11.03.04

I would assume... same way Beast was a vessel. Dr. Sublime... John Sublime... all aliases.

14:59 / 11.03.04

Some unanswered questions (as far as I can tell)

1) What's the name of the last Cuckoo? (I still don't know why everyone is suggesting Daphne)

2) Why does Cassandra Nova act/talk like a Feeder?

3) Who was the Weapon N mole in the school?

4) Is Xorn simply Magneto's "light side" after all?

5) Is En Sabah Nur mentioned at all?

15:07 / 11.03.04

Hummm... I'm thinking of them more as pawns who thought they were in control.

Remember, John Sublime and, most probably, Dr.Sublime were humans, and 'Sublime' was present in every human. Humanity thought was in control -- "just the same stupid thought, divided into IGNORANT BOXES"; humans were the 'ignorant boxes', who didn't know they were being controled.

Mutant Kick addicts also became inhabited by Sublime: in this category, we have QQ and the Omega Gang, Esme and Magneto. Later, Sublime 'got' Beast, with whom apparently he assumed its real persona for the first time. Maybe that was a gradual process, and remember 150 years had already passed.

In fact, Emma having tried Kick may be a glitch in the given explanation, unless we assume a single exposition to Kick wasn't enough to 'trigger' the Sublime influence/persona.

And what about Cassandra? She was a pawn, too. But how? Was that related to her exposure to the nanosentinels? And was she Weapon 11?

And what's the logic and purpose of the Cuckoos being Weapon 14, beyond the V-Meme theory? How could they have left 'The World' before Weapons 12 (Huntsman) and 13 (Fantomex)?

And how the hell Fantomex is Appolyon? Why did he dream of Phoenix grafts all his life? All the logic pointed to JOHN Sublime and I really hope this wasn't some last minute change imposed by editorial, because of the upcoming 'Weapon X' storylines.

Well... I believe some things will be more obvious after I read the issue.

Matthew Fluxington

15:09 / 11.03.04

I'm surprised about the Henry thing, but it all makes sense.

Yeah, I think Xorn is nothing more than the good in Magneto isolated from the bad. I think that suits the character and his story much better than some nonsense about Xorn being a separate guy altogether.

15:32 / 11.03.04

I had no idea Morrison was capable of such closure. i cant believe i forgot about no girl either although im not sure i get her connection to martha.

15:33 / 11.03.04

For all we know, the Paris train wreck was engineered from the start by Fantomex ... he could've had an unconscious Huntsman and the entire Weapon XII and Weapon XIII cadre under wraps for months prior to making his show in Paris. The entire Weapon Plus programme could've had their agents 11 through 14 done and made and suspended in tubes prior to "Extinction".

15:46 / 11.03.04

Ok, but did Weapon 14/The Cuckoos escape from the World? Were they willingfully released with a purpose? We must assume the later, otherwise they could have perfectly told "We escaped a thing called the World! It's a place where they build creatures like us to kill mutants!".

See my point? I think there's far more in the open than we'd like to admit.

15:54 / 11.03.04

fantomex did have the power to project his thoughts into reality remember the old women. Maybe the weopon x base was asteroid m the whole time and he was just toying with them

15:55 / 11.03.04

although im not sure i get her connection to martha

Oh, that's fairly easy. Martha is a disembodied brain, right? No-Girl is simply her "astral form".

15:55 / 11.03.04

or maybe plot holes are plot holes and we should just be happy with how much grant abnormally filled in.

15:56 / 11.03.04

jeez mgd, you guys realy think of everything

Matthew Fluxington

16:00 / 11.03.04

"Telekinetic GODHOOD - in a jar, at last!"

16:01 / 11.03.04

It's the way my brain is wired. I tend to see patterns. Why wouldn't a disembodied brain create a "body" to walk around in?

And call me Mario. MDG are merely my initials.

16:07 / 11.03.04

Something just occured to me. Ever notice how many of Grant's creations in NXM have a mind-body dichotomy?

Martha's a brain without a body.
Fantomex is a body with an external brain.
Weapon XII was a body with multiple brains (which could control multiple bodies)
The Cuckoos are one brain in many bodies.
Xorn (ostensibly) was a body without a physical brain.
And then there's Sublime, who has neither body, nor brain.

Matthew Fluxington

16:16 / 11.03.04

Right. I think the whole thing is to indicate that the mutations that "work" - ie, the ones that will one day become a permanent, normal part of everyone's genetic structure - will be those that deal with the evolution of the brain.

16:20 / 11.03.04

I'm assuming that WP enrolled the Cuckoos into the Institute as a plant. Nice and simple.

As for No-Girl. Yeah, that was Martha's projected personification. Her superhero persona. Her mutant name.

16:28 / 11.03.04

It WOULD be nice and simple, if they acted as a plant, which I don't think it has happened, except for Esme. They always help the School, as in 'Imperial', when they devised the solution to trap Cassandra in Stuff' body.

Something isn't quite explained here...

16:41 / 11.03.04

I don't think they were a plant. If I remember correctly, in the Assault on Weapon X, Weapon XIV was described as "scrapped". That implies that the Cuckoos were considered a failure.

Matthew Fluxington

17:22 / 11.03.04

Well, just because someone is from the Weapon Plus program, it doesn't make them evil or even particularly useful to Weapon Plus' cause. Wolverine rebelled. Fantomex and EVA rebelled. Weapon 15 ultimately failed because he wasn't the genocidal type. All of the sentinels end up being used against Sublime in the end.

17:24 / 11.03.04

Who says they were helping the school? The original Cassandra body was diseased in order to be a trap. The Cuckoos preserved their fellow Weapon by putting it in a shapeshifting Alien body.

The Cuckoos were always working in their own self-interest... or at least Esme's self-interest. When Sophie's mind began to asset itself, Esme engineered her dose of Sublime/Kick and killed her.

The Cuckoos must have been the plant-informant. When Magneto eliminated media broadcasts, telepaths became the world's only viable source of communication. Xorn was planted by Sublime agents to be Weapon XVI and wreak havoc, but he WASN'T about to report into a higher authority. Esme WANTED a powerful authority to accept her. -More green ideology

However, being a higher order Weapon, the Cuckoos probably were able to functionally cast off their programming and aid the school in the last 150 years.

17:25 / 11.03.04

There are an amazing amount of decapitations here

Magneto as Xorn ( Star for Brain )
Magneto decapitated by Logan ( well we just see a helmet bouncing off scene)
Fantomex from EVA
severing Phoenix from the Crown
Martha without a body-she's just a Brain ( sounds like a song lyric )
Sublime Beast beheaded by Appollyon
The feeders

And

Wouldn't it be great if thousands of eyes were staring back at the reader as well as all of the Mutants when everyone is joined together in the White Hot Room with Jean? I guess technically thousands of eyes will be present just not present in the artwork staring back at us. Maybe there is something a tad bit telepathic about it and will link us all...

17:38 / 11.03.04

It is possible that Esme was the only one aware of what the Cuckoos really were. Perhaps it's this heightened awareness that caused her to rebel against the collective. She was always looking for "love," from both the Japanese kid with 3-D recall (Stuff) and Magneto. In other words, she was always looking for more...because she knew more?

17:46 / 11.03.04

Here's a thought. Assuming (as Assault implies) that the Cuckoos were a failure, could it be that the reason they failed is that the girls _do_ have individual differences?

17:55 / 11.03.04

Mario... I need you to quote me that Assault scrapped XIV line... who gives it? in what context? Etc?

18:11 / 11.03.04

I don't have the issues handy, but I believe Fantomex reads something about it in issue #143 or 144. I found a review online that said something about it.

18:16 / 11.03.04

Well Fantomex also said that his name was Jean-Phillipe and kept his blind mother in a mountain retreat. Seeing as how he's working for the Sublime Beast in the future, I wouldn't doubt that he knows ALL about Weapon XIV's true whereabouts in order to throw Cyke and Wolvie off track.

18:23 / 11.03.04

>> the"Orpan Universe"

When I first glanced at this, I thought it said The Oprah Universe

Stinkboi's point that we should just be thankful Grant M. wrapped up as much as he did (in what sounds like a very cool way) is well taken. Some plot points will just remain holes/unresolved.

How scary is it that Marvel is using so many of Grant's ideas? Fantomex and John Sublime in the crappy WEAPON X comic (shudder), Mutant Town in that new Bishop comic...Joss is the only one I trust to work well with Grant's stuff and follow in his footsteps.

19:21 / 11.03.04

Chesed,

If I understand the reference correctly, it's not Fantomex saying it, but him finding out about it. Here's the overview I read...you can tell me if it's accurate:

http://thecomicman.morbideuphoria.com/2003_12.php#001430

The specific line in question is "he has found out that the program has just scrapped Weapon XIV and Weapon XV is still on the operating table. he thinks this a perfect time to take down Weapon Plus. "

Can anyone verify what he's talking about?

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

20:31 / 11.03.04

Cassie is Cassie. She isn't a weapon, she's a rehabilitated evil spirit in an alien body synthesising her original cell structure. It's implied in #153 Sublime was able to use her to cause strife (kick? algae growning in the sewers? Now, I like that idea). So much more elegant that way.

The cuckoos are a fucking enigma, huh?

20:34 / 11.03.04

Just remembered something which might help answer a fequent question about Martha. On a news report at the start of the issue introducing the U-Men, it says something like "Martha Johanson left a suicide note smeared with her own luminous blood". I reckon that her blood is probably an important ingerdient for Kick, and the needles could be some sort of damper to stop her becoming totally Sublime. (Note John SUblime injecting a littel to keep her happy). Or something.

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

20:46 / 11.03.04

I can't stress this enough: Apocolypse has nothing to do with this, he's just used to set up the idea of evil spirits/misdirection. If someone as heavyweight as Grant wanted him he could have had him. But Apocolypse is shit! Submile simply unifies a lot of wacky concepts in the Marvel U and packages them for a new generation- reimagines them. Similar as they are Apocolypse was pro-mutant - but somehow the Sublime force manipulated him into helping him unwittingly cull mutants- didn't he help create the Legacy virus? In the AoA mutants ruled over humans amd were wiping them out - sublime wouldn't stand for that!

The two are fundimentaly opposed ideologicaly. Hitler and Stalin were similar in a lot of ways- they both had looks (well, moustaches) and lead mass murdering facistic regimes, but the two ideological forces they represented could not be more at odds.

Also: Sublime is still out there. Sublime is still a threat. Kick endures.

21:02 / 11.03.04

Good Lord Radiator...

Our insistance on ESN as a vessel for Sublime DOES NOT make Sublime = Apocalypse. True, AoA establishes that ESN has goals and a persona OUTSIDE of the Sublime entity's influence, but I still think it works.

Matthew Fluxington

21:09 / 11.03.04

It's pretty obvious that

a) Sublime is meant to be a new, improved stand-in for Apocalypse in just about EVERY aspect of its being

and that

b) it's left vague enough so that if a future writer wants to spell it out that En Sabah Nur = Sublime, they can.

In terms of how Grant deals with continuity ("superconsistency" or whatever), he's introduced an idea that can potentially be used later on to explain away quite a bit of dodgy X-Men continuity issues, so kudos to him for that.

21:34 / 11.03.04

Before she died i wish esme would have said "not like them" (meaning her sisters) instead of "not like you" (meaning emma). I would have had a lot more sympathy for her.

21:39 / 11.03.04

Right now, I'm under the impression that Apocalypse was En Sabah Nur...Kicked up a notch.

(In other words, Sublime was Apocalypse, but Apocalypse is not Sublime.)

I do wonder where, if anywhere, That Which Endures fits into this.

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