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Kill A Sacred Cow Here!

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STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

09:40 / 12.12.05

a really popular band that can release an album like Zooropa

Zooropa was clearly an Eno album. U2 were just session musicians on it. I'm sure there was a mix-up when they were making the inlays.

The Natural Way

11:44 / 12.12.05

Mmmm, and although Lemon's quite nice, I'd hardly describe it as "nuts", Patrick. Quite a conservative definition of nuts, if you ask me.

21:11 / 12.12.05

Perhaps nuts was the wrong word, slightly unhinged may be more appropriate. But ridiculous of its oddness, it's a great song. As for the idea that was an Eno album, Eno did the conservative All That You Can't Leave Behind as well, and I don't think it was a situation where he only really cared about Zooropa and was just picking up a check the rest of the time. the really Eno album is the Passengers thing. Zooropa is the perfect meeting of the mainstream rock stuff and Eno's more electronic avant garde sensibilities.

23:33 / 12.12.05

Zooropa was clearly an Eno album. U2 were just session musicians on it. I'm sure there was a mix-up when they were making the inlays.

That's really doing U2 and Eno a diservice. They worked together on the record, and it's got some stunning playing from all four members of U2. Plus Eno's got a pretty ropey track record himself... I mean, have you heard half of what he's put his name to? His surname is certainly no seal of quality.

The Natural Way

08:58 / 13.12.05

I don't know, I'm not willing to stick a sword in that sacred cow yet. I love Eno's demented 70's solo material; I still enjoy his ambient stuff, Roxy rock, as do Talking Heads and as for Low.... And, c'mon, Deranged is well, well good. Lost Highway would be lost w/out it.

10:04 / 13.12.05

Not especially (well, really at all,) familiar with Eno's solo stuff, but, realistically, where would he be without with his (pretty much without exception) more glamorous co-workers? I wonder if he wouldn't just be propping the bar up with Kevin Coyne(RIP) Robert Wyatt etc. There's nothing wrong with this, but Eno's a bit of a starfucker on the quiet, isn't he? He gives the people he produces a slightly spurious veneer of avant garde credibility, arguably, but what seems undeniable is that Brian F, Davids Bowie and Byrne, U2, even James, the band, back when they were fashionable, got Eno into parties, with coke, sexy super models and such, that he'd otherwise have been attending only in his dreemz.

Haus of Mystery

12:12 / 13.12.05

Wrong.

19:30 / 13.12.05

Great thread. Reminds me of the great story of Johnny Rotten walking down the Kings Rd in 75 wearing a printed Pink Floyd logo t-shirt with I HATE written above it...

Alex, no disrespect but there are probably a few Eno items that would surprise you... Taking Tiger Mountain and Before & After Science being but two that immediately spring to mind... There were rumours around the time of Zooropa that Bonzo et al stuck some rough demos on a tape and gave them to the man. When they popped off their private Boeing 70-million-7 at the end of the tour six months later he had the album worked up and they just threw their shit over the top. And that this was how it tended to happen. Believe me: rawkstars sought him out, not vice-versa.

Have to agree that Elvis does nothing for me though I've had His Significance in Musical History drummed into me.

Also, to my eternal frustration, A Love Supreme refuses to submit to my advances. I think I just don't get bebop.

08:40 / 14.12.05

I wonder if he wouldn't just be propping the bar up with Kevin Coyne(RIP) Robert Wyatt etc.

Just?

I'd imagine that, given his standing as a man of certain taste and decency, Mr. Eno would find the above situation infinitely preferable to hanging around with U2 at hypothetical coked up model-fests. Or whatever.

09:47 / 14.12.05

apologies to those that i offend with this sacred cow offering-as i know they are a band loved on these pages more than many other bands. Rather than start a huge flame war i'm using this thread for the purpose that it was intended- i'm just going to tell you about a band that i don't get.

I've borrowed CD's and downloaded tracks on the strength of the recommendation- I normally love having something new and special pointed out to me. However Melt banana do nothing for me- I'm sorry seth i don't get it- maybe your big write ups on them had them destined never to deliver- maybe i just don't like speed punk noise- to be honest i found that a little irritating and have never got to listen to more than a couple minutes before they've irritated me enough to hit the skip button. I'm really sorry but (imho) they ain't all that. The choppiness and stop starty bits of noise begin to grate and the music - when it actually starts doesn't seem to hit any chords that interest me. Now while i love the idea of using noise on songs- sonic youth, beatnik filmstars, My Bloody Valentine, Broken social scene- this noise is just too random and irritating in teh same way that someone unable to decide on a TV station endlessly channel hoping into a blur of random white noise- i appreciate that this may make me into an old fart and that to some, this is the perfect recommendation of punk music. sorry to sound like my gran but... where's the tune!

while i write myself into a corner let the list continue... on an eno tip the rock stars go to him and not vice versa- check out the first two Roxy Music albums and Here come the warm jets for a burst of perfect glam rock- or 'My life in the bush of ghosts' for cut n paste groovey mash up of different cultures and sounds. don't forget this is the only guy in the world that came close to out Bowieing Bowie in the early 70's...

lord nuneaton savage

10:55 / 14.12.05

Maybe, but I would have said that Bowie was attempting to out-Eno Eno.

But then I'm biased because (*hhh*) I don't like Bowie that much. Don't get me wrong, there are some fine tunes in there, some of which will stay with me to my dying day, but I don't find I ever want to listen to any of his albums all the way through.

And, actually, thinking about it; all of my favourite Bowie songs are the ones produced by Eno anyway.

Apart from "Love you 'til Tuesday". Obviously.

All Acting Regiment

11:42 / 14.12.05

There's definitely some weak songs on the Bowie albums, and as a bit of a fan I have no problem with anyone saying that. I just think it's to be expected when you've got someone trying something new every album- they're just not going to perfect a particular identity to the point where all songs produced within it are high-quality. What you will get are some bloody amazing singles and B-sides that split our little world asunder.

19:38 / 14.12.05

Massive Attack- The Blue Lines.
The album lead them to winning a Mercury Music Award I think.
People more astute than I obviously saw some inherent level of quality in it that would lead to better albums like Protection and Mezzanine but I myself thought it verged on unlistenable shit apart from Unfinished Sympathy. It may just have been Horace Andy's warbling vocals that actively bleakened my view of an overall perfectly good album but when one joyous day I happened upon it (the tape) unravelled and partially eaten by my young niece I didn't seem to care at all and in fact treated her to ice-cream.
Perhaps I should listen to it again now (presumably) that my musical taste has grown but being sensible about it I just don't think I have the enough gumption or that large a capacity for disappointment anymore.

00:51 / 15.12.05

I own nearly twenty albums that Eno's been involved in and I'm struggling to find any that I find enjoyable beyond his collaborations with bands and Music for Airports.

As for Melt Banana... well, they're a pop group these days. The catchiness is suiting them very well. I can understand the above in the context of the older stuff, mind. They used to have much less of a tune in mind.

As for: this noise is just too random and irritating in teh same way that someone unable to decide on a TV station endlessly channel hoping into a blur of random white noise... that's pretty much the exact opposite of how they sound. There's nothing random about Melt Banana's noise. It's an act of focused attention and discipline, an extremely tight attention to detail. It all gets recreated live, it's all intentional.

Why are you apologising, dude? I'm not their parents.

Haus of Mystery

09:48 / 15.12.05

Yes you are. And they've been very noisy children.

13:01 / 15.12.05

I'm liking how this thread hasn't devolved into argument and name calling.

Seth, what is it that you don't like about Before and After Science and Another Green World, to take but two examples? I'm genuinely really interested in your opinion 'cause I think they're fab.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

13:43 / 15.12.05

Did Massive Attack really win the Mercury with Blue Lines?

Nope, According to this, the closest they got was Mezzanine being nominated in the year Gomez won it. Which says lots.

14:41 / 15.12.05

Thought it did. Sorry for misinformation and thanks for clarification! Well it is consistently listed as one of the most important albums of the 90's though so it kind of falls into a sacred cow category by that alone. Paved the way for Portishead and Morcheeba apparently too which only works in it's favour.
Wikipedia Link
There's no denying that it provided the basis for a new direction in music with trip hop. But I could never extract any enjoyment from it at all. I kind of like to regard it as something which was in essence a bit crap that Portishead built on rather than them influencing Portishead. (Semantics really but there is a slightly different implication to it) Acchurly didn't Geoff Barrow (of Portishead) hail from Massive Attack originally?

15:02 / 15.12.05

I'm agreed on Massive Attack - the only bits of their recorded output that really do anything for me are a few tracks on 'Mezzanine', which I seem to recall most of their fans hated anyway.

I tended to maintain my distance back when everyone and his dog used to go on and on about 'Blue Lines' etc, as I don't feel particularly strongly about the issue, but, yeah, basically - I don't see it. It just sounds like a bit lot of quite dull, undistinctive music.

lord nuneaton savage

15:04 / 15.12.05

Hence it's popularity?

It's a dinner party and candles classic amongst the chattering classes, after all.

15:14 / 15.12.05

Oh, and Seth, have you heard Fripp & Eno's "No Pussyfooting"? Even if you don't dig Eno's usual way of doing things, I've got a hunch it might float your boat - it's pretty fucking amazing. "The sound of the universe cutting itself shaving" was somebody or other's evocative description.

15:29 / 15.12.05

I got converted to Massive Attack living in Bristol - It's something about the constant rain and the strange, pervasive sense of menace to the place (the current poverty, the grim money the city was built on, my own paranoia?), that makes pretty much all of their music start to make a lot more sense. I don't think they've ever been something really appart, though, no more than anyone else...

Which brings me to my main point - as I sit here struggling to come up with any sacred cow at all - there are very few people who actually make that much difference, who come up with anything so startlingly original, as to warrant true adulation. They always have influences, and they're always the next logical step, it's just we didn't see the steps they took before we heard about them and they happen to suit the zeitgeist. I think what makes people/bands a holy cow in the first place is opinion at large being over-generous to their creative talents and ignoring their ability to self-promote ahead of their peers.

16:51 / 15.12.05

Marvin Gaye 'Whats Going On' - I know its meant to be a classic- i own it- but truth be told i really don't like it very much- I prefer the soul sound of the sixties or the motown funk of Stevie Wonder- sadly this record has never inspired me to do anything other than skip the tracks...

I know politically it changed a lot- and motivated change for the better- i just don't really like any of the songs that much- Inner City blues is the only track on that album that works for me- but stick on 'Save the children'... where's the skip button? make it stop...

sorry.

17:02 / 15.12.05

Nope, According to this, the closest they got was Mezzanine being nominated in the year Gomez won it. Which says lots

Perhaps I'm being dim but I'm not sure what that does say. Could you explain a little?

Haus of Mystery

20:02 / 15.12.05

Gomez are bullshit? I always thought so, certainly...

But then I went off Massive Attack pretty fast, and certainly wouldn't go sniffing around 'em nowadays.

08:56 / 16.12.05

Which brings me to my main point - as I sit here struggling to come up with any sacred cow at all - there are very few people who actually make that much difference, who come up with anything so startlingly original, as to warrant true adulation. They always have influences, and they're always the next logical step, it's just we didn't see the steps they took before we heard about them and they happen to suit the zeitgeist.

But the idea of seeing the development of music as a succesion of 'logical steps' is extremely limited and misleading. I could reel off a huge list of bands/people who have thrown out 'startling original' music that's proved to be far more long-lasting than merely being a reflection of it's historical/cultural context and - bear with me here, cos I'm chasin' this idea like a hound - it seems to me that a lot of the folk on that list would be the ones who've taken their influences and blasted them off in the most profoundly ILLOGICAL directions imaginable, with out-of-the-blue original genius type results, eg. Beefheart, Can, The Fall, Aphex Twin.... the stuff they threw out there didn't exactly come from taking the 'sensible next step', youknowhwatimean?

08:57 / 16.12.05

In defence of Massive Attack: I think part of the albums success, for me, was what it represented at the time. Kind of Black British music going overground, and meshing together the influences that you get growing up in inner city Britain. I listened to pirate radio extensively throughout my teens and Blue Lines was like 10 years of pirate radio history compressed into one disc - a leading reggae vocalist, sharp Mcing, breakbeats, the "old school" Hip Hop influences before it became completely overdone. It's kind of like a shared history, all articulated in one package. I see the success of Blue Lines as a kind of forerunner to the move into the mainstream radio of Tim Westwood et al, the success of Dizzie etc.

So, I think it's an important record in that sense - as to the actual songs... well, I admit I haven't listened to it years. I still think The Big Wheel is a tune though.

... and I have to say I think you're doing Horace Andy a diservice, describing him as "warbling". He's the kind of artist I'm automatically disposed to like because of his reggae stuff. Well worth checking out.

09:17 / 16.12.05

i'd second the horace andy reccomendation.

i dont really click with massive attack, but i do thik some of their stuff is awesome. i think, for me, one of the biggest problems with their soud has been its ubiquity. people played it all the time and it becae the choice of lazy or not very discerning stoners. there was often a point where you would be getting stoned with someone and they would put on massive attack.
classically it would seem to be some kinda reaction to everyone getting caned rather than a desire to hear specific music, and that bored the piss out of me.
i can remember people playing it on repeat because its primacy as a stoner album was so established in their heads.

perhaps if i had more imaginative aquaintances i would have more time for them.

i guess my lack of love comes from them having been enjoyed in my company in a way that seemes very ...scripted?
i do still rate a lot of their songs, but the experience of them has been soured by innaproriate overplaying.

13:20 / 16.12.05

Don't blame Massive Attack, blame Mo'Wax. They flogged a dead horse into catfood and car commercials.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

13:50 / 16.12.05

It's a bit unfair to blame Massive Attack for Morcheeba. Might as well blame The Beatles for Oasis...

14:04 / 16.12.05

i think a lot of the people who were too young to have bought massive attack just before they went to uni bought morcheeba instead, though.

i reckon massive atack were way better but, for some imagination deficient stoner kids, they can perform the same function.

The Return Of Rothkoid

23:14 / 18.12.05

Lady, I DO blame The Beatles for Oasis. Much as I blame them for Tears For Fears' Sowing The Seeds Of Love (or whatever that song was called).

I won't hear a word against George Harrison's Crackerbox Palace, though. If only those Oasis bastards would cover that.

The Return Of Rothkoid

23:18 / 18.12.05

And besides, I liked Big Calm. It went perfectly with my chardonnay-sippings.

23:48 / 18.12.05

Is Oasis a sacred cow? Are they part of the canon of great music from the nineties? Cause if so, I'd like to fucking slaughter them all over my lawn so the neighbours can see and admire and nod approvingly. I want to shave their unibrows so bad that sometimes I grab a razor and clink it against the screen of my television when the Gallagher boys are on. Fucking Liam and fucking Noel.

Anybody who says so much shit about the music industry is annoying. There is absolutely no logic behind a band saying they are only in it for the music. They don't want the fame, they say. Well, then, give all your fucking money to charity, Oasis, and stop making dismal records. Put your money where your mouth is, you asshole alcoholic brawlers.

Also, it's not funny or charming when everything that comes out your mouth, Oasis, is slagging off other bands. Unless it's U2 their slagging. Just because your famous, Liam/Noel, doesn't mean you get to shit on every band who's trying their hardest.

I fucking hate Oasis.

02:58 / 19.12.05

Do you hate Small Faces too?

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