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Kill A Sacred Cow Here!

 
  

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Not Here Still
11:34 / 22.07.01
Reading the last couple of day's posts, people have expressed astonishment whenever certain artists are slagged off.

I'm thinking mainly about Nirvana and Morrisey here, although there are probably other's I've missed recently. But there seems to be this idea that there is a holy canon of artists who should never be attacked - all this "I can't believe ANYONE would say that about Nirvana/Mozzer/Malkmus etc."

So who do you think has an undeserved reputation?

I'll kick off with two, if I may; David Bowie and Michael Stipe.

David, your albums are patchy; you over-egg almost every pudding; you spent far too long in the 70's in love with coke and Nazi's; and Tin Machine, for God's sake.

Michael, you just sing like Larry the Lamb.
 
 
Tom Coates
12:15 / 22.07.01
Not trying to miss the point here at all, but David Bowie has a reputation based upon his work in the seventies and the very early eighties. Everything (almost) after that cements the reasons people think his reputation is undeserved - but think about it this way - can you think of anyone of 50 and above who has managed to do albums involving drum and bass and thousands of other styles and types of music without seeming COMPLETELY ridiculous? I mean - don't get me wrong - I don't think he did it WELL, but he didn't sound like a complete fuckwit.

And who do i think has an undeserved reputation? At the moment, Radiohead - I think their last couple of albums have been indulgent, and that if they stopped trying to be so deep and let the songs out to play then they'd be substantially less aggravating.
 
 
Ganesh
12:50 / 22.07.01
I'd agree on the Radiohead thing. I saw it in Real Life action when my partner bought 'Kid A', played it a couple of times and went on and on about its 'twisted majesty', etc. in true 'ethereal submerged cathedrals of angelic pain' stylee. A week later, he'd stopped playing it. Now, it's virtually forgotten.

And the Morrissey sacred cow? Well, I'd hardly condemn anyone for not finding him fascinating. In that particular thread, I was just explaining the reasons why I do.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
15:20 / 22.07.01
I don't know, I feel like I'm alone on this strange little island, where I'm the only guy in this world who loves Kid A because I think it has a bunch of catchy songs and not because I think it's bold or experimental or anything. Why am I so alone in thinking that it is just as catchy, if not catchier than The Bends?

I've never cared for Bowie. I've always felt that his reputation has more to do with his genderbending and persona shifting than anything else...there's a few great tunes in his catalog (Changes, Oh! You Pretty Things, The Man Who Sold The World, John I'm Only Dancing), but the majority of his songs are just drivel in my opinion.

The guy who I feel is the most overinflated sacred cow in all of musical history, really, is Bob Dylan. Now, I don't begrudge Bob his place in history, but I do think his songwriting and lyrical skills are vastly overrated. To me, Dylan is the perfect example of what happens when Baby Boomer "WE DID THIS FIRST" mentality is met with sex appeal, mystique, and arty pretentions. Ugh.
 
 
rizla mission
15:22 / 22.07.01
I was gonna pick Radiohead.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Amnesiac is actually really good, and I liked Idioteche off Kid A, but apart from that I find listening to the 'head similar to reading a copy of the Guardian with all the mildly interesting bits taken out.

Also .. this is something I haven't previously revealed for fear of being immediately lynched .. I bought a copy of 'Pod' by The Breeders last year after hearing everyone who's musical judgement I respect trumpeting it's magnificence and, well, I just don't get it at all really.

The production just sounds terrible - it's somehow been put together so that you have to listen really carefully just to hear the music and none of the songs particularly grabbed me in the way songs on a great album should.

I don't want to tirade against it - I like all the other stuff Deal & Donnelly have done - but 'Pod' just leaves me scratching my head..
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:37 / 22.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Flux = Rad:
I don't know, I feel like I'm alone on this strange little island, where I'm the only guy in this world who loves Kid A because I think it has a bunch of catchy songs and not because I think it's bold or experimental or anything. Why am I so alone in thinking that it is just as catchy, if not catchier than The Bends?


You're not alone.

Sacred cows? Hmmm... I'd say The Doors, but I'm not sure they're that wildly respected. Same with Pink Floyd. I'll have to think about this one.

Ooh! Ooh!

Aphex Twin.

Beardy twart. Bleepty-bloopty-bleepty-arse.
 
 
bio k9
17:52 / 22.07.01
My problem with people slagging bands (particularly Nirvana) is that they almost never say why they HATE the band. And when they do its usually along the lines of "they were too popular, there are better bands that aren't on the radio, I don't like their fans, they ripped off so and so"...ect. most of which has nothing to do with the band or their music.

I live between Seattle and Aberdeen and a lot of the people here knew Kurt before Nevermind broke. Everyone I know says he was a quiet, shy and nice person. It seems to me that his band got too big too fast and he couldn't deal with his personal problems and since the one thing that was his escape (the music) was sort of taken away from him he couldn't find anywhere else to turn. And he killed himself. And now people bitch about how lame angst and suicide are. Fuck all that. He was just a guy in a band. It was the media hype and the fact that you bought into it that made him more than that.

All that being said, I think the following are overrated:

>Beck
>Jeff Buckley
>Ani Difranco
>the Doors
>Bob Marley (ok, not really, but why is Legend the only reggae album anyone owns?)
>U2

So there.

[edited to remove snarky tone at the end]

[ 22-07-2001: Message edited by: Biologic K-9 ]
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:21 / 22.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Biologic K-9:
>Bob Marley (ok, not really, but why is Legend the only reggae album anyone owns?)

Because most high street record shops don't exactly stock a huge amount of reggae and people are generally lazy. I also doubt that any other record in the genre has ever recieved anywhere near the same amount of marketing and publicity as Legend. Major labels don't push reggae because it doesn't sell. Why doesn't it sell? Well, because no major label has ever - apart from in this one case - made any effort to try to sell it.

As for Jeff Buckley, he's been hyped up a ridiculous amount. I really like Grace, and that, after all, is the only studio album that he ever actually released. The follow up suffered a number of setbacks, not the least of which was Buckley's decision to scrap it when it was almost complete. Since then, his image and art (and possibly his mother) have been manipulated by record execs to cash in on his potential. If he's not as good as the hype, I think the blame can fairly be laid at their door.

Bowie - yeah, okay, the majority of his songs may well be 'drivel', but he's been around... what... 30-odd years now? Even if he released a run of five or six brilliant albums, the amount of material he's put out over his career makes it almost inevitable that it contains got more misses than hits. By the same reckoning, the majority of Paul McCartney's songs are drivel. Which - to my mind - they are. It's the gems that exist within the pile of tat that make them important artists.

It should also be remembered that Bowie's work - especially that of the mid-70s - has had a huge impact on popular music. That's where the hype comes from. The same , I think, applies to both Beck and Aphex Twin (Aphex especially). Artists like these are the ones who inspire others to make further innovations, to create the next big thing. I don't think that can really be disputed.

Having said that, I consider Radiohead to have recieved a grotesque and totally unjustified amount of coverage throughout their career.
 
 
The Sinister Haiku Bureau
18:44 / 22.07.01
Elvis. I mean, I suppose His songs are Alright, in a lift-music sort of way, and maybe I'm taking him outwith his historical context, but KING OF ROCK AND ROLL? John Lennon, Jim Morrisson, Marc Bolan, Joe Strummer, Mick Jagger, Keith Moon, Jimi Hendrix, and a good dozen others all deserve the title far more than that korean-war-fighting, nixon-loving oedipus-boy.
And no, I'm not basing my critisism on fat old 70s Elvis. He was just as boring in the 50s.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
18:47 / 22.07.01
U2.
A few years ago I'd have said Tricky and 'Mad' Richard Ashcroft but no-one cares about them any more.
 
 
ynh
19:05 / 22.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Biologic K-9:

>Ani Difranco


Jesus. Yah. Practically no radio play (though this may be different in the UK?), a reputation built on politics and self publishing, releasing a ton of albums over a short period of time. And most of the people you meet on the street haven't even heard an Ani song.

I'm just confused is all. Is she so bad that any postitive review is too much?
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
20:06 / 22.07.01
Yr Name Here...*clearly* you don't spend much time in rural suburbs. For some strange reason, there is this phenomenon all across the country that in any rural suburban area, there will be loads of girls who fall right in the middle between dirty punk and dirty hippie, and they all passionately adore Ani. These are Ani's people. Look at any Ani tour itinerary: She disproportionately plays rural areas over major urban places.

This also applies to Phish...practically no one cares about Phish in urban areas, but once yr in the country...bam, they are bigger than the Beatles.

[ 22-07-2001: Message edited by: Flux = Rad ]
 
 
ynh
23:25 / 22.07.01
That's patently and wilfully ridiculous. I live in Belchertown; I attend uni at UMass. We, as in the entire Valley, cultivate and nourish those folks.

Regardless, isolated claques of young women in rural New England hardly make for "over-rated." So I ask again, does she really suck that bad?
 
 
bio k9
03:43 / 23.07.01
Um...I never said that Ani Difranco sucked. She is one of those artists that inspires a very rabid and loyal following and I think it has more to do with her personality beliefs and attitude than it does with her music.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
12:26 / 23.07.01
I don't think Ani sucks or anything. She's got a handful of songs that I really like a lot (Heartbreak Even, Every State Line, Fire Door, her cover of Amazing Grace, Shameless). Some of her music can be pretty annoying. Probably the most irritating aspect of Ani DiFranco is the attitude in her lyrics that is very selfabsorbed and egotistical, the numerous songs where she says to spurned lovers "How dare you not love me? Can't you see that I am better than you?"
 
 
z3r0
14:08 / 23.07.01
U2.
Jim Morrison.
The Police.
Couple of days ago I would say 'Radiohead' also, but I just saw a videotape of them playing The National Anthem in Saturday Night Live and it felt like bloody arcane voodoo possession. Fuck, they still kick supreme major ass.
 
 
Cop Killer
17:58 / 23.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Senor Haiku Creates Utopia:
Elvis. I mean, I suppose His songs are Alright, in a lift-music sort of way, and maybe I'm taking him outwith his historical context, but KING OF ROCK AND ROLL? John Lennon, Jim Morrisson, Marc Bolan, Joe Strummer, Mick Jagger, Keith Moon, Jimi Hendrix, and a good dozen others all deserve the title far more than that korean-war-fighting, nixon-loving oedipus-boy.
And no, I'm not basing my critisism on fat old 70s Elvis. He was just as boring in the 50s.


None of those people deserve to be called the King of Rock'n'Roll, but Elvis does. For one thing, none of those people would be around were it not for Elvis, John Lennon said himself: "Before Elvis, there was nothing." Yeah, Elvis never wrote a song, but that doesn't really matter, he was the one that spearheaded Rock'n'Roll music, he didn't just play rockabilly, he didn't just play blues based music, he didn't just play country based music, he didn't just play folk or gospel or just rock'n'roll, he played all of it, put together in one package, he's the reason that Jimi Hendrix is even considered Rock'n'Roll (if not he would have been put under the electric blues genre). Elvis made Rock'n'Roll palatable to the white parents, yet there was still a definate sense of danger in the music that was noticeably lacking from that of, oh, say, Pat Boone.
 
 
Cop Killer
18:02 / 23.07.01
Oh, and I don't know how many people here like these guys, but they seem to have some sort of devout following but I fucking hate Travis, with a passion.
 
 
Locust No longer
18:21 / 23.07.01
I'll add to the Ani Difranco discussion. I find her style of singing intensly annoying. , and her lyrics are many times pompous and self important. I do like her stand against record companies, though. As for Nirvana, they were droning, boring, and corny.

Mr. Bungle is another band I find that is overrated. I do like them, but they are just over played, and over praised where I'm from.
 
 
Axel Lambert
19:02 / 23.07.01
The Stooges. They had/have a huge inpact, but not worthy of the huge goodwill they have. I've never heard anybody saying anything bad about them, really. And it's really just boogie rock.

Velvet underground. I know, I know they are a great band, but not (possibly) as good as people say.

R.E.M. Really really boring.
 
 
ynh
19:07 / 23.07.01
Thus, any artist with a following whose voice I don't enjoy is over-rated. Excellent.
 
 
Ganesh
20:30 / 23.07.01
quote:Originally posted by z3r0:
Couple of days ago I would say 'Radiohead' also, but I just saw a videotape of them playing The National Anthem in Saturday Night Live and it felt like bloody arcane voodoo possession. Fuck, they still kick supreme major ass.


Yeah, but given the hyperbole of pretty much everything written about them (Q magazine's 'Best Album In The Universe This Millennium' or something, and that was before 'Kid A'), they can't be anything but overrated.
 
 
Margin Walker
09:25 / 24.07.01
I'd call Johnny Cash a sacred cow. He's an undoubtable talent whose put out a number of impeccable LP's & songs. My beef is with the image of Johnny Cash: of the law breaking, pill popping rebel. Yeah, he's lived a hard, long road, but when all is said & done, he's a Conservative, flag waving Christian whose only real "rebel" stances are of Native American legal rights. It's like taking Lee Greenwood & turning him into Sid Vicious. Goddamn you, Rick Rubin!!

As for Elvis, that King of Rock 'n Roll never meant shit to me. Guys like Jerry Lee Lewis, Chuck Berry & Carl Perkins deserve it a hell of a lot more than Elvis does. That's my 3 cents anyways (adjusted for inflation).
 
 
The Sinister Haiku Bureau
09:39 / 24.07.01
quote:
None of those people deserve to be called the King of Rock'n'Roll, but Elvis does.

I'm not saying the people I listed deserve to be called 'King of Rock and Roll'. Just that they're far more deserving of the title than Elvis. I don't think anybody deserves that title. (with the possible exception of Lennon. All of the people I listed embody rebellion, sex, drugs, general mentalness and musical innovation far more than that blue-suede reactionary.
quote:
For one thing, none of those people would be around were it not for Elvis, John Lennon said himself: "Before Elvis, there was nothing."

"If you tried to give rock and roll another name, you might call it Chuck Berry" - John Lennon.
Rock and Roll would have still happened without Elvis. Just slightly differently. Maybe better. maybe worse. Probably just differently though.
quote:
...he was the one that spearheaded Rock'n'Roll music, he didn't just play rockabilly, he didn't just play blues based music, he didn't just play country based music, he didn't just play folk or gospel or just rock'n'roll, he played all of it, put together in one package...


So did many of the pioneers of rock and roll, Lewis, Berry, Haley, little richard, and others all blended and jumped genres.

quote:
...he's the reason that Jimi Hendrix is even considered Rock'n'Roll (if not he would have been put under the electric blues genre).

I'm not convinced. Although Hendrix's music is very blues based, taken in the context of Berry, the Shadows, Clapton, the Who, the Beatles, and others his music would probably still be interpreted as Rock and Roll. Maybe though.

quote:
Elvis made Rock'n'Roll palatable to the white parents...

How so? Because he was white and many other prominent rock 'n' roll pioneers were black? Declaring someone the king of rock and roll on the basis that his fan's parents were racist does not seem eminently sensible to me.

But ultimately, I'm not saying elvis wasn't important, just that he's been over-hyped beyond all reason by The Elvis Industry. And that I don't particularly like him as a person, his music, his now-laughable pseudo-rebellion, his politics. I just think the people i listed epitomise rock and roll, and what rock and roll should be far far better than Elvis, and make far better 'role models' (for want of a better term) for aspiring rock stars.

But I agree with you utterly about Travis: they're just the poor man's Ocean Colour Scene, who are, in turn, a 2nd rate Oasis imitation, who are, in turn, a cheap imitation of the beatles, and other good, non-boring musicians.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
09:44 / 24.07.01
Someone was always going to do the 'white boy plays Mississippi gumbo blues' thing. Elvis just got lucky. Not a bad thing in itself, but to say "If it hadn't have been for Elvis, we wouldn't have the kind of music we do today" is a slight exaggeration
 
 
Cop Killer
09:44 / 24.07.01
Artists like Carl Perkins and Jerry Lee Lewis were not nearly as diverse as Elvis was, Carl Perkins spent the vast majority of his career playing rockabilly and Jerry Lee Lewis either played rockabilly or country (he quite possibly could have been the King, though, but he married his cousin). I do like Chuck Berry a bit more than Elvis, and it is hard to say who did more for rock'n'roll, (I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Little Richard, who was also great, but didn't do as much as Berry or Presley) I mean, neither of them had psuedo-rebellion surrounding them (as someone said about Elvis), that rebellion was fucking real, no matter what you think of the artist, it was there, and they both did quite a bit for rock'n'roll, but the thing is Elvis did more music outside of rock'n'roll and encorporated it into rock'n'roll, like gospel and folk and more traditional country, making it possible for scores of artists to make it big under the banner of rock'n'roll (Bob Dylan? [I know he is basically folk, but a lot of people call him rock]). But Chuck Berry does rock a hell of a lot more and did the whole duckwalk thing. So yeah, basically, what I'm saying is that there is NO FUCKING WAY that Marc Bolan should be the king of rock'n'roll over Elvis; Mojo Nixon never wrote a song about Marc Bolan, or Jimi Hendrix, or Jim Morrison, or Chuck Berry, but he did write Elvis Is Everywhere.
 
 
bio k9
09:44 / 24.07.01
God created the poontang and God created the tango but only Mojo Nixon could put the two together and create...
 
 
bio k9
09:44 / 24.07.01
THE POONTANGO!
 
 
rizla mission
09:44 / 24.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Cop Killer:
Oh, and I don't know how many people here like these guys, but they seem to have some sort of devout following but I fucking hate Travis, with a passion.


don't worry. everybody else does too.
 
 
The Sinister Haiku Bureau
11:11 / 24.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Cop Killer:
...So yeah, basically, what I'm saying is that there is NO FUCKING WAY that Marc Bolan should be the king of rock'n'roll over Elvis; Mojo Nixon never wrote a song about Marc Bolan, or Jimi Hendrix, or Jim Morrison, or Chuck Berry, but he did write Elvis Is Everywhere.



I only mentioned Bolan on my list because he's basically a lot cooler, and a lot more talented, (and therefore more rock 'n' roll) than Elvis. As I said before, I don't think that anybody can seriously claim to be 'king of rock and roll', merely that the people I listed come far closer to that ideal than elvis.
I'm also a tad confused about your mojo nixon argument. Don McLean wrote a song about Buddy Holly (so did Weezer for that matter.) REM wrote a song about Andy Kauffman. Period Pains wrote a song about the spice girls. does that mean that Buddy, Andy, and the spice girls all have a claim to being king of rock and roll? Or are you saying that only Mojo Nixon has some god-given right to be the only person who gets to appoint The Official King Of Rock And Roll?
I mean, I'm preparedto accept your argument that Elvis was the most important pioneer of Rock and Roll, but does that make him 'King'? The fact is that there've been a lot of people who've come along since who are, by various criteria, more rock n' roll than Elvis. Surely it's about time the king abdicated his throne, and passed the crown on to someone more deserving?
 
 
Graham the Happy Scum
11:15 / 24.07.01
I'd probably tolerate Elvis if he hadn't
sucked up to Nixon (Richard, not Mojo), or had been forced to make all those hambone movies by Col Tom.

I do like the way that the Elvis impersonator phenomenon has gotten out of hand tho', like drag for rednecks.
 
 
Cop Killer
22:24 / 24.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Senor Haiku Creates Utopia:


I only mentioned Bolan on my list because he's basically a lot cooler, and a lot more talented, (and therefore more rock 'n' roll) than Elvis. As I said before, I don't think that anybody can seriously claim to be 'king of rock and roll', merely that the people I listed come far closer to that ideal than elvis.


And I'm saying that they are not, sure they may have been more talented, but since when did talent have anything to do with writing a good rock'n'roll song? I mean, look at the Ramones.

quote:I'm also a tad confused about your mojo nixon argument. Don McLean wrote a song about Buddy Holly (so did Weezer for that matter.) REM wrote a song about Andy Kauffman. Period Pains wrote a song about the spice girls. does that mean that Buddy, Andy, and the spice girls all have a claim to being king of rock and roll? Or are you saying that only Mojo Nixon has some god-given right to be the only person who gets to appoint The Official King Of Rock And Roll?

No to the first question and yes to the second, Mojo Nixon and only Mojo Nixon has the right, but he didn't appoint Elvis, me merely agreed with it and that's good enough for me.

quote:I mean, I'm preparedto accept your argument that Elvis was the most important pioneer of Rock and Roll, but does that make him 'King'? The fact is that there've been a lot of people who've come along since who are, by various criteria, more rock n' roll than Elvis. Surely it's about time the king abdicated his throne, and passed the crown on to someone more deserving?

What made him King wasn't just his pioneering, but also his charisma, look and attitude, which were all (in my opinion) much more rock'n'roll than anyone you mentioned. And what criteria are you talking about? That is an interesting point about abdicating his thrown, but I really don't think anyone has come around since that embodies everything that rock'n'roll is the way Elvis has. (An aside: I once went to a Boris the Sprinkler show where the singer, Rev. Norb, began yelling about how since rock'n'roll is American, it's not right for it to have a king, "because America isn't ruled by kings, it's ruled by Grand Puba's." He then declared himself the Grand Puba of rock'n'roll).
 
 
Enamon
00:14 / 25.07.01
Elvis wasn't king. No one can be king of rock & roll. Rock & roll just is.

As for being overrated I have to say that one cannot claim a band to be overrated just because one has a personal annoyance about it or one doesn't like the voice or some crap like that. Take Ani DiFranco for example. Hell how can you call her overrated? I've never even heard ONE of her songs. She doesn't get any airplay and very few people know of her. Now Elvis on the other hand... or let me give you another example. One of the most (in not THE most) overrated bands... the Rolling Stones.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
00:17 / 25.07.01
50,000 Elvis Fans Can't Be Wrong.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
00:24 / 25.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Cop Killer:
Oh, and I don't know how many people here like these guys, but they seem to have some sort of devout following but I fucking hate Travis, with a passion.



And strangely, just this afternoon my little brother told me this album was "Fucking GOOD, man!"

With all this naysaying, I will surely have to find out for myself..
 
  

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