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Angel- current us seaon spoilers (& some Buffy6 too)

 
  

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Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:26 / 15.06.02
And with regards to whether Willow would be suitable to be a Watcher based on what she's done, Ripper has summoned a demon that killed all his friends at least (and Ethan has hinted there's more than that) before he settled down to Watcher life. He's also killed a human being since then.
 
 
Trijhaos
13:29 / 15.06.02
Both of those interpretations apply depending on how you look at it.

It could have been a gift for Buffy. She's tirelessly fought this never-ending battle against the forces of darkness and the only way she's going to be able to stop is if she is dead.

It could have also been for the world. The only way that portal was closing is if someone closed it. Dawn could have closed the portal by jumping in, but Buffy sacrificed herself so that Dawn could experience life and it allowed the rest of the world to get back to normal.

Hell, if you want to, you could say Buffy gives the gift of eternal peace to the vampires/demons/spooky critters, that she regularly goes out and slays.

The reason I think Willow is too emotional to be a Watcher is she's more likely to let her emotions come into play when she's making decisions for her Slayer. First and foremost, the one question in the watcher's mind should be, "Can my Slayer win this battle", not "Will my Slayer survive this battle".
 
 
The Natural Way
16:31 / 15.06.02
But that's the thing: I think the last story arc dealt w/ Wills emotional shit. Twas a catharsis, wannit? A purge so big it took the shape of a world killer....and it was averted. The "world" was saved. Giles himself was responsible for far more deaths than Will, when he was young and foolish.

The council may want to keep an eye on her....ASSIMILATE! And she's ALWAYS been a teacher, ALWAYS been Giles's other protege (what's she being trained for?) and, now that Tara's gone, let's really define/consolidate Will's relationship w/ Dawn.
 
 
Saint Keggers
02:39 / 17.06.02
Also lets consider WIllows age and Gilles. Its possible that Willow could end up as a watcher I just dont think that it would be for any of the scooby gang. I could see her when she's in her later years and having more of a life behind her than sunnydale. Maybe returning to sunnydale one day to be watcher for another young girl just becoming slayer...like Donald Sutherland in the movie.

Trijhaos:Ive got a taser,a tac-nuke and a fancy set of threads, put a clonning unit in my supped-up mystery machine of a van and awaiting launch orders...Faith-nap 20002 is on!!!
 
 
The Natural Way
07:41 / 17.06.02
Much more experience in the field and at doing Watcher-style research than Giles would've had at her age. 6 years worth (twice as long as any degree - AND advancing to the highest levels of magic by 21. Or is that 20? Not sure...)

Next!
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:39 / 17.06.02
Well, first up - Giles was in his late thirties when he got the Watcher gig - and there's no real indication anywhere that the Council even KNEW about Eigon, or however you spell that shit. So it was about fifteen years or so previously, and a secret. Willow? Nonesuch.

Second, killing - the Council don't seem to mind in the slightest. It's unsanctioned and uncontrolled killing that they object to.

Fuck that, anyway - the Council are old news. It's whether Giles will train Willow to be his replacement that concerns me. He hasn't been an officially sanctioned Watcher since the third season... why would he take her off to the Council to get deprogrammed?
 
 
Trijhaos
11:48 / 17.06.02
He hasn't be officially santctioned since S3? What about that whole deal during s5 when the council came to visit and Buffy got Giles reinstated as her Watcher with retroactive pay and all that?
 
 
The Natural Way
11:49 / 17.06.02
Screw the age thing: Will's experience in the field must be on a par w/ the biggest, baddest watchers.

Giles was indirectly responsible for quite a few unsanctioned deaths if I recall correctly..... Dark magics....summoning demons...remember?

But as for the rest of it: yeah, those are the real fuzzy areas around this idea. I'm not convinced that Will will become Dawn's watcher, but it would make a certain amount of sense thematically and emotionally...so...I'm going to continue to push the idea till I get bored.

Will's still in need of an adult role/job/thing - the coming of age narrative demands it. Oh, and the whole new-but-back-to-basics thing we've been promised for S7 suggests that the series will include a Watcher of sorts - and, if we start from that position, then it just remains to figure out who'll fulfill that role. And the fact that the new series opens w/ Will and Giles in Blighty...well......WILL & GILES, WILL & GILES...they're the same sorta creature!
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
20:05 / 17.06.02
i still say xander should have killed her...
Him and his "Angel went crazy evil once, it's bound to happen again" stance, the idea of letting willow live turns him into the uber-hypocrite.
maybe thats just my take on it
 
 
Trijhaos
20:25 / 17.06.02
I read somewhere, I think it was the buffy newsgroup, that the guy who played the master has been hired for season 7. Make of that what you will.

I like the idea of Willow as a watcher. It's kind of appropriate. I'm not saying make Willow Dawn's watcher or anything.

I think a neat way to end the series would be to have an older bespectacled Willow working in the Sunndale High School library. She'd be in there shelving books when a young woman comes in and says "I need-" and Willow says "I know what you've come for" and pulls out that big book Giles pulled out at the beginning of the series.

Why have a full-fledged Watcher? Just make Willow a watcher trainee or something. You know, playing at watcher with Dawn could be some sort of field run or something.

If they're going back to basics, they need to include the Hellmouth somehow. Maybe close the Hellmouth at the end of the season(series?), and let Angel go on by itself. Just because Buffy ends doesn't mean Angel has to end. It's shown that it can stand on its own. Just let it be.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
21:37 / 17.06.02
...hah. Yeah, completely forgot about that season five ep. Nice one, Trij.

Ah, Willow as Watcher still blows the big one. And I'll probably still watch the first few to see if the writing quality improves... glutton for punishment, me.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:16 / 18.06.02
Elijah: Xander kill Willow? Are we watching the same programme? Fuck's sake: Xander's always resented Angel for getting together w/ Buffy and that's WHY he gets all eggy and vengeful w/ him. SUBTEXT, man! On the other hand Willow is, and always has been, his best-friend-in-the-world-ever....if he'd killed her I really go all Mr. Bodiless and probably burn all my Buffy VHS's. Willow and Xander are the oldest and sweetest relationship in the show - the way Xander "beat" her was perfect.

Jeez....

Trij: the Master? Fuckin' A! Everything's panning out the way I hoped it would.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
08:26 / 18.06.02
Yes. They should definitely bring back another dead vampire character. That would be great, and in no way creatively bankrupt.

Fucksake.

The Master, fun though he was at the time, has no link whatsoever to any of the characters currently in Buffy apart from the first season of the show... ande he didn't exactly distinguish himself as the unstoppable Dr. Death he was set up as. Let's see... he kills Buffy (but only slightly) when she's horribly young and inexperienced and suffering extreme terror because she's just been told that the prophecy says she'll die no matter what she does. Jade out of Big Brother could have kicked the shit out of her at that point.

At least he has a history, however small, with Angel. But that would be even more shit, due to the Darla thing - which at least bugged the fuck out of him...

I despair of the quality of Buffy-fan on this thread. Where's Fly? He may disagree with me too, but at least he's not going to go "The Master! Fuckin' A, duuuuude!"

No offence...
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
09:44 / 18.06.02
I should point out that the ending to the above post was intended to be taken with the same irony as I presume Runs meant his own 'Duuuude' posts to be taken... just in case anyone misunderstands and completely goes off the deep end. But of course that could never happen here!
 
 
Trijhaos
11:10 / 18.06.02
I would hope the Master isn't going to play any major role in s7. It'd be OK if they used him in flashbacks or something, but as the major big bad? That just wouldn't be right.

If they were going to bring back a major vampire to torment Buffy, why not Dracula? She wasn't able to properly dust him and he really got under her skin.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:11 / 18.06.02
Jack: no fair - you complain about the standard of posting on this thread, quote me and then act all shocked when I, quite understandably, attempt to defend my posts. Naughty!
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
14:58 / 18.06.02
xander killing willow would have been a shocktacular ending, have it happen as the screen blacks to the credits, no "To Be Continued" just a whispered, "Im sorry" and a neck cracking sound.
I'm just really tired of the good ol christian forgiveness on the show.
Angel lies about being a vamp, oh i forgive him cause i luuuuv him.
Angel fails to mention that having sex turns him into a psychopathic killer again, goes on a rampage killing countless people, including Giles' sweety, Buffy kills him and sends him to hell, he comes back all mopey, and like a good little saviour she forgives him.
Willow nearly kills dawn, says she wont do magic, starts fucking with peoples heads AGAIN and they all forgive her.
Oh and lets not forget the whole 'I was dead and livin it up in heaven and you brought me back trapped in my own coffin, but i forgive you' thing, i mean come one people, they didnt consider WHERE she would come back? Christ...

It's a bunch of BS really. I like the show, but there is a limit. I dont care how long i've known someone, they start throwing fire at me and slashing my face they are getting knocked the fuck down. Drunk with power and grief, so you kill the murderer of your lover, fine, drunk with power and grief so you try to kill EVERYONE, not forgivable.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
23:40 / 18.06.02
Angel fails to mention that having sex turns him into a psychopathic killer again

...because he had no idea that this was the case.

As for his actions between losing and regaining his soul, you have to consider the complicated nature of what a vampire is in the Buffyverse... When someone becomes a vampire, their 'soul', ie the bit that is really *them*, dies (and goes where? dunno - never been established - either oblivion or maybe the heaven Buffy might briefly have been in...). A demon then takes over not only their body, but also their memories, and a good deal of their personality, albeit in some twisted way. Angel was unique (until very recently), in that he has both, and the human soul keeps the demon in check, most of the time (Angel doesn't have to 'become' Angelus, ie lose his soul, in order to give in to some of those nasty impulses, and indeed one of the things season 2 (and some of season 1) of Angel dealt with was the tricky question of to what extent being a 'warrior', a man of violence, relies on having that demonic side). When he lost his soul, Angelus (the demon) remembered all of what he'd done while he'd had a soul, but interestingly, on both occasions on which Angel gained and regained a soul, he seemed initially disorientated and unable to remember what he'd done without a soul (because the human soul wasn't *there* at the time, and took a while to re-connect to the memories of that period which are presumably stored in his undead brain...).

But of course, culpability and responsibility (diminished or otherwise) are big thorny themes in both shows and are rarely ever resolved simply. Some would argue that occasionally they're glossed over when it suits the larger plot, but on a case by case basis I think I'd still dispute that 9 times out of 10...

(There ya go, Jack.)
 
 
Saint Keggers
04:43 / 19.06.02
Yeah I think the only person who ever admited to and tried to if not atone then at least pay her dues was Faith...ah Faith. Wasnt she great going to prison like she did. Personally I blame the watchers council for sending someone like Wesley. Ofcourse her and Wes now would make quite the team up. We have to get her out of prison.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:13 / 19.06.02
Elijah: no. A neck cracking and a "sorry"? Please. I assume you don't only dress in black and hate everything, so why the penchant for outright misery? Willow didn't kill the world, though, did she? And the killing-the-world thing? That's not the point - was just an exteriorization of Will's desire to commit suicide. Xander saved her life. I cannot stress how much I'd hate the show if that happened. All the fan's moaning about how Buffy "isn't dark enough...." got their fix with s6 - anymore would've been overkill (some posters clearly think it already WAS overkill). 6 was about catharsis - a good psychic scrubdown - not perpetuating all the horror so that it spilled over into 7.

Trij: re the Master thing. I PMed Jack about it yesterday (posting limit and all that), putting forward some reasons why I thought, prior to finding out the actor was going to be involved w/ 7, he'd make a good big bad for the final series. Here's an extract:

"The Master? He birthed the girl... He's the anti-father, weaning the baby slayer on all his nasty death and blackness. He's the original nightmare - of course Buffy's terrified of him. For her, He IS the hellmouth. And he's killed her twice. Yeah, in a parallel universe, but so what? It's all the same emotionally. If Buffy's gonna be murdered on the job, he's the man to do it, and, in her bones, she knows it! So bring back the nightmare - it's where Buffy comes from (the first and the last enemy) - and like all the best stories our vampire slayer finds herself coming full circle. I don't believe Whedon and co. would bring back the Master because they can't think of anything else to do, but because, like me, they think it makes sense. Internal sense."

You want the hellmouth closed? I've thought that one over too - it's the only way to get real closure. The Master's totally bound up w/ the hellmouth - he's the perfect cipher for it. Deal w/ that shadow once and for all - the first trauma - and it's all well and truly over.

They would never bring him back for a quick cameo. That would truly suck.

I'm happy to bow out and be wrong about all this, but this 'ere's my train of Buffythought atty moment and I hate work and I'd rather talk about things I like.
 
 
Trijhaos
11:31 / 19.06.02
Xander killing Willow is so completely wrong . Xander's a goofball at times, but he always tries to do what is right. Killing Willow is not right. Yes, she tried to annihilate the entire world. Yes, she beat up on her friends. But, she was completely out of her mind. She had to deal with both her own grief and the feelings of the entire world on top of that. Of course, she's going to go all nutty.

If they're going to bring back the master as the big bad, they need to do it in an interesting way. None of this alternate reality bullshit. Either bring back the original or don't bother.

I can see the Master being brought back as the big bad. It's coming full circle. Buffy started her career slaying this guy and his minions, it's kind of appropriate that she ends it by slaying them.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
12:16 / 19.06.02
ok, i conceed on the willow killin point.
as for the master, his bones are all shattered and dusted, whats gonna happen, someone finds all the dust, mixes it with a little water and pours a recast of the master?
i think they shoud close the hellmouth, i havent decided if i want buffy to be THE slayer they talk about in fray, i think faith would be more likely, no hang ups about getting rid of certain vamps once and for all you know?
 
 
The Natural Way
14:49 / 19.06.02
Although, I don't think Faith'll survive if she comes back - hero's death and all that. I'm not sure Spike will either.

But now, of course, we're in the realm of pure speculation....
 
 
uncle retrospective
16:23 / 19.06.02

Aintitcool.com has spoilers on who the big bad is in S7. There's no like here cause I'm going nowhere near it.
 
 
Trijhaos
16:36 / 19.06.02
I'll go check it out and if it ends up being Britney, I'm going to have to hunt down Whedon. Dammit! I don't want to see that bimbo anywhere near Sunnydale....

Ok. No mention of Britney anywhere.

Some other interesting stuff about s7 here

Gile is going to get more screen time. Yay!
 
 
The Natural Way
08:02 / 20.06.02
Out of interest, has anyone got the first part of the s6 boxed set yet? I brought it on Monday, very excited about the "extended version" of 'Once More With Feeling" it was alleged to contain, and.....well, twas exactly the same as the one on Sky. Did the Americans get a cutdown version? What's going on? Odd.

I've rewatched about 8 episodes so far and it's still my fave Buffy series (apart from s3). Skilliant highlights: Dawn falling asleep hugging the Buffybot (nasty and complicated); the feeling that everything is cursed right from the outset; who killed Bambi?; 'Flooded' generally (imaginative, funny and just altogether excellent - the Star Wars car horn rules all Elvis-like and the time loop and the accelerated campus.... Scary as fuck); 'Tabula Rasa' generally for providing everyone with a blank slate and being funny and tragic at the same time ("Hey! I'm a super-hero, too!" Horrible AND hysterical.)....and Tara really is revealed to be just about the best person ever. And then there's the aforementioned 'Once More With Feeling'....and Hannigan. Give it up for Hannigan. You wouldn't want to piss her off.

I can't help it: I just completely dig it. Isn't it great how immovable everyone's positions are on this series? It's a real "love it or loathe it" thing.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
11:48 / 20.06.02
are you telling me that you brit pop types already have s6 on dvd???
 
 
Trijhaos
11:58 / 20.06.02
You have s6 on dvd already?

Jesus. There's commercials here that are making a big deal about season 2 or 3. I can't recall off hand.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:59 / 20.06.02
No, it's just come out on VHS.

Brit pop? Why you.....come here....bear hug....you know you like it. I
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:16 / 20.06.02
Video box set. The first eleven episodes.

For the gen on the 'extended' musical episode see here.

I've not got Sky, so the videos are the first time I've seen any of season 6. Bargaining is terrible. So little happens. There's no good reason for this story to be spread across two episodes. By the beginning of the second part I found my attention wandering. Apart from that (and I've got to say that the first episode in each season has generally been a bit of a duffer), what I've seen I've really enjoyed. Well, with the possible exception of All The Way, a plot that's been done to death in the previous five series.

It's better that the piss-poor S4 by miles and has a slight edge over S5 in that it's got a sense of humour (S5 being completely grim). It works best when it hints at the old Buffy style, each episode having one main theme at its centre.

And yeah, Once More, With Feeling is the best Buffy evah.
 
 
Trijhaos
12:30 / 20.06.02
Oh. VHS. Well, we don't have that either.

So what exactly is cut from Once More With Feeling? I know it's pared down to 42 minutes or so. Is anything essential missing?
 
 
The Natural Way
12:36 / 20.06.02
But that still doesn't explain in what way the VHS vid is extended. It's exactly the same as my VHS of Sky's version.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:43 / 20.06.02
When did you record the Sky version, Runce? I've been searching to try and find out what the cuts actually were (with no success), and it looks like Sky repeated Once More... with the cut scenes restored. Maybe that's the one you've got?
 
 
Trijhaos
12:55 / 20.06.02
I just found a few cuts. Not sure if it's all of them.

The Instrumental Opening
Half of 'I've Got A Theory'
Dialogue, directly after 'I've Got A Theory'
Dawn's Ballet

If what you have has a musical overture after the opening montage,
starting with Buffy waking up to an alarm clock and following the
scoobies as they go through the day, for about 40 or 50 seconds,
leading into Buffy's song in the graveyard, then you have the uncut
version. If it goes directly to Buffy's song from the opening credit
montage, then you have the edited version.

There's lots of listings of all the cuts around, but you can tell that
simply, right from the get-go. If you've got the musical montage
(Buffy staring at the alarm clock while Willow and Dawn switch off on
the bathroom and Tara straightens the bed and finds the Lethe Bramble,
without knowing its significance) then you've got the 'complete'
version, if you go straight into 'Every single night, the same old
sameness...' then you've got the edited version.


All of this info is of course taken from the alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer newsgroup
 
 
The Natural Way
13:01 / 20.06.02
A friend recorded it (that reminds me, I'd better give 'im his video back), so I'm afraid I don't know when he recorded it, but I assume it was the Thursday that it originally aired, 'cause I tend to make my way down to Brighton (where he lives) on a Friday, and I'd normally check out Buffy that night before heading off to the pub.

Unless, of course, it was one of those haven't-seen-Buffy-in-a-couple-of-weeks weekends, in which case I have no idea when it aired.

But, regardless, the two are identical. I was waiting for special new bits and sadly.....

The Beeb are gonna rape s6. C4 have got the right idea with Angel. They obviously know it should be even bigger than it is - hence sticking it, uncut, inbetween pts 1 & 2 of Saturday night's Big Brother Bonanza.
 
  

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