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LOST season 5 (with Spoilers)

 
  

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Spaniel
19:20 / 06.04.09
Well they might just be ways of ensuring that people understand the limits of time travel in the lostverse - a way of keeping things straight.

I suspect not, though
 
 
Spaniel
19:27 / 06.04.09
Sorry, not so much that they're lying to their fans. I'm thinking that it is indeed a rule of the lostverse that the future can't be changed, but that perhaps, somehow, some extremely weird and dangerous shit is gonna happen which cracks that particular law wide open with potentially catastrophic results... or summat.

Been mulling over why the Others v Dharma conflict gets all mass murdery and the only thing I can think of is that those rash, ignorant scientists start to mess with some truly dangerous shit and someone feels that they need to intervene. permanently.
 
 
_pin
19:52 / 06.04.09
Good point, actually. I'd forgotten the Purge / accepted it as an inevitable rock on the horizon, with little bearing on events. Clearly wrong.

On the other hand, how long do they have? Can it all be so simple? Pushing the buttons wasn't simple; you had to talk about it, over and over again, because it was Important. Gassing the lot of 'em strikes as being perhaps more important than... wait, what happened at the end there?

I also don't think that the Losties are a crack in the system, and so I don't think that'll be how they explain the photograhps now of their presence then. They feel a lot like pawns in the game of bigger players - Widmore and Linus, now, although obviously I don't think those are the sides this fight has always been between, or necessarily not both Richard, ultimately. And they've done so many things that simply needed to be done. They turned up and blew Desmond OUT OF TIME AND SPACE with their fucking around; Locke made Richard visit Locke; Jack turned Ben evil by not helping him when Sayid shot him. What else have they done that lots of other things depend on being done to be done? (Admittedly, recursive Lockes seem a bit of a stretch; he failed Richard at first, and might still be gaming him here in the present. The titular leader seems an shitty little post to be fighting for)

Too much depends on them being where they are when they are for them to be a threat to the timeverse. But the Dharma really are fucking with shit, you're right. And if they do have to be stopped from doing that, then Richard could well be playing Benjamin and his FUCKING WHINING on that one...
 
 
Spaniel
20:14 / 06.04.09
I think whether or not the losties can break the rules and fuck with time depends very much on what fucking with time means, and what the consequencesof said fuckage are. It might be as simple as kill Ben therefore no Ben in the future.

By the way, I'm not convinced of any of this, just blue sky thinking
 
 
Spaniel
20:18 / 06.04.09
It might be as simple as kill Ben therefore no Ben in the future.

What I mean is that a timequake predicated on killing insert-random-person-when-they're-a-kid might be rather stranger than that
 
 
alex supertramp
20:23 / 06.04.09
I agree that the incident may be a serious paradox that unleashes a dangerous amount of energy. Check out this orientation video. It seems to depict some sort of incident occurring. It seems to me that while some time travel questions have been resolved under Faraday's first law ("Whatever happened, happened"), others are still up in the air. For instance, assuming the asian baby of Pierre Chang we see in the premiere is Miles, what happens if Miles chucks himself as a baby out the window? We know what happens when you go back in time and affect other people, but what we haven't seen is the same person from two time periods interacting.

Orchid Orientation Video
 
 
_pin
20:24 / 06.04.09
I'm not convinced either, and I'm almost always wrong. Well, I think Richard is playing Linus and Widmore, and quite openly too.

But making stuff up is fun! As, frankly, unfortunately, is continuity.
 
 
Spaniel
20:42 / 06.04.09
Richard playing Ben and Widmore would be good, for sure
 
 
Tsuga
21:14 / 06.04.09
I agree that the incident may be a serious paradox that unleashes a dangerous amount of energy
We've got a hydrogen bomb, a crazy magnet and a time-wheel on an island, whacked-out culty ninja-types running barefoot and mad scientists with timers and hatches and submarines and did I mention the hydrogen bomb?
Then again, in nearly every episode the concept of "meant to happen" is reiterated. Things happen because they're supposed to, because they have to. You can't change the future or the past, though yes, with this last episode, they're opening the door on that. I guess they're going to draw the lines more clearly on what the rules are supposed to be, so that we can see them get bent.
Oh, and wasn't Ben surprised to see Locke alive?
 
 
_pin
10:50 / 07.04.09
I don't think Ben getting shot and saved is meant to show that there's the chance that things that aren't "meant" to happen are still possible. The carbon footprint alone of getting Ben shot in the chest so he needs to be resurrected so that he'll loose his innocence so he'll gas all those people is immense.

I could be completely wrong about that line of events, obvs., but this does mean that Ben is Jack's fault, and that Jack will then get to cry about the fact that he cried.

A manlier fate I cannot imagine.
 
 
Mistoffelees
11:10 / 07.04.09
I don´t like the idea of saying it´s Sayid´s or Jack´s or the smoke monster´s fault. Ben decided to kill people, it´s his responsibility. Having a shitty childhood is no excuse for becoming a murderer.
 
 
Spaniel
11:36 / 07.04.09
Ah, the interrelationship between freewill, determinism and morality. You could write whole books.
 
 
_pin
17:24 / 07.04.09
Well, it's not a jury I'd like to serve on,
Mistoffelees, but I don't think Jack would be found guilty on the charge of n. murders.

What I do think is that Lost has, at times, functioned as an engine into which one places narrative events, and out of which come the tears of one Mister Jack Shepard. This isn't an engine that always pays the most attention to the narrative events in question; daybreak itself is grist for the salty tear mill.

That said, how culpable is Ben? While Richard, when stressing the severity of the choice he faces, probably meant the loss of his innocence, Ben hasn't been told that's the price of the Otherness he chooses when he frees Sayid, and it might not be.

What we do know is that, at the point at which his innocence is taken away, Ben is really the only person who doesn't have a say in it. Among those who did we can include:

1. Sayid, in shooting him.
2. Kate and Sawyer, in taking him.
3. Richard, in accepting him.
4. And, importantly, Jack, for rejecting him.

It's a bit recursive, of course. Sayid shoots him, and Jack rejects him, because he was evil, but he's also evil because Sayid shot him and Jack rejected him.

Like I said, Lost is a machine by which Jack is made to cry, which is why I think the above happening is so likely. He is almost definitely going to cry about it.
 
 
alex supertramp
17:54 / 07.04.09
"What we do know is that, at the point at which his innocence is taken away, Ben is really the only person who doesn't have a say in it. Among those who did we can include:"

This isn't really fair. Ben actively chose to let Sayiid free, which directly led to him being shot. You can't accurately say that Ben had no say in the matter, because it was his choice that put the gun in Sayiid's hand. Ben's action started the chain of events that led to him losing his innocence. Ben WANTED to go to the others, which is what he got.

What you could argue is that his father's shitty treatment of him gave him no choice but to try to escape Dharma. But that wouldn't be entirely accurate either, because Ben also had the option of choosing to remain a battered child under Roger's shitty parental care. Plenty of battered children start to think they earned their abuse, or as Sawyer put it, you kick a dog long enough and it starts to think it deserves it.
 
 
_pin
18:02 / 07.04.09
For me, it hinges on whether or not Ben knows that becoming an Other will mean loosing his innocence.

I would imagine all the things that enable him to become an Other are corrections by the timeverse on his course, to ensure he does indeed loose his innocence. That doesn't mean he knows that that is what he is giving up. No one really sits down with Ben and talks him through the options available to him, or makes it clear what he will be loosing when he becomes one of them.

Lost has explicitly stated that whatever happens happens, which gives them a get-out from discussing why a character behaves in a certain way. I'm not sure Ben isn't getting caught up in what has been predestined for him, and wouldn't rather have changed his mind at some point, if he hadn't spend 18 crucial hours unconscious and bleeding, dragged around by other characters and their assumptions about him.
 
 
Mistoffelees
18:18 / 07.04.09
Does anyone know what "losing his innocence" even means in this context? I don´t.

It hopefully won´t mean YB will be getting it on with Ellie. Perhaps thanks to Smokey there will be some permanent changes in his psyche, but so far that´s speculation.

Right now, the whole YB storyline looks sloppy to me, but I´m hopeful the writers will make up for the moving bullet wound with the next episode.
 
 
_pin
18:44 / 07.04.09
I've been taking "loss of innocence" and "I was born here" to be two ways of expressing the same thing; that Ben after "Whatever Happened, Happened" is not the same as Ben before, in a deep and probably gassy way.

He won't really get it on with Ellie, will he? I'm sure he'll fancy her - she strikes me as his type - but I'll tut and sigh if they bring a sexual element in to his innocence or lack thereof.

I'll stop thinking out loud about his culpability for as long as it takes to get an answer on what happens in there, but I do think that, since if none of this happened we'd end up with Adult Ben, off-Island, being lectured to by Old Lady Hawkins about how everyone will be dead if he doesn't do what he's already done, it's a bit of a moot point.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
18:48 / 07.04.09
I'm actually starting to formulate the idea that it will be something like learning about his future and his eventual end or learning the big secrets of the island, taking on a biblical "tree of knowledge" loss of innocence type deal.

Whatever it is, it seems related to Smokey given what happened to Rousseau's friends and their turn/brainwashing.
 
 
Tsuga
21:06 / 07.04.09
Yes, the smoke monster and the temple are surely going to be the driving powers behind the island's mysteries, probably because they're alien something-or-others.
 
 
alex supertramp
23:05 / 07.04.09
I think Aliens have been officially debunked.
 
 
alex supertramp
23:10 / 07.04.09
Then again, Damon Lindelof said: "There are no spaceships. There isn't any time travel." So who knows. Still, I pretty firmly believe aliens won't be involved, out of sheer hope for Lost to not become lame.
 
 
Tsuga
01:08 / 08.04.09
There isn't any time-travel? Then, it's all been just a bad dream...
I don't know how they're going to get around that without being lame. I think that Jorge Garcia said about that "I believe it was true at the time he said it", which was season 1.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
02:57 / 08.04.09
I remember reading an interview with Cuse and Lindelof where they basically said about the time travel thing: "Well, yeah, we'll lie to you if you ask us a question we can't answer any other way without giving something away. Our job is to protect our story and sometimes that means lying."

Which sort of made me respect them more.

That said, I'm betting the answer isn't aliens. Seems to be a bit more 'ancient crazy civilization with wild powers' than anything else. I'm seriously down with the Atlantis idea, which seems lame and trite at first but I love the idea that perhaps a writer somewhere said "Atlantis didn't sink. It moved." Makes me joycore just thinking about a simple concept like that.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
21:45 / 09.04.09
So, um.

Yeah! I really no idea what to say about that episode except that Desmond beat the shit outta Ben lol!. The fuck-you-toss-in-water at the end of the beat down was pretty classic.

The Widmore history here was pretty nice and makes me hopeful that we'll get a Widmore flashback episode where we see events from his perspective. I like the way they can manipulate flashbacks in this way. Ben comes out honorable and Widmore not so much, but who knows what all the details are behind these events.

Smokey's chamber was.... interesting. The Egyptian stuff was in full force here, too. I wonder what the actual Temple looks like? That's going to be a big reveal and I can't wait.

"What lies in the shadow of the statue?" SAY WHAT BOUNTY HUNTER??
 
 
Tsuga
21:59 / 09.04.09
They threw a lot of stuff at us in that one. I don't know that Ben came out as honorable, though. I thought to a certain extent that it solidified him as scheming and underhanded, when he was turning the gun-guy against Locke, even if he did flip back when he shot the guy for no reason. Maybe he knew that the guy was with the bounty huntress? I read it as he had been trying to win out against Locke to retain dominance on the island, until Alex Smokey told him to suck it up and follow Locke. Widmore was ousted by Ben for what seemed to be arcane rule-breaking that Ben used against him, turning them into nemeses.
So. They have a temple. The statue,which we caught a glimpse of before. Judgement by the "monster". The temple/monster power being the overarching power of the island, somehow, and related to ancient civilizations. If it's sci-fi, how is that kind of mojo going to happen without extremely advanced technologies like the Martians? Some old culture harnessing an energy anomaly? If it's magyckal, then what the hell, it could be Ramses' ghost or something, anything. I'm sticking with aliens for now.
I was satisfied that at least Ben was asking Locke the kind of questions you always want people to ask, "so, how do you know where to go, did it come to you in a dream?" They could get away with this under the pretense that John just knows, somehow, and doesn't have to explain it. It was nice to see Ben flail.
 
 
alex supertramp
03:45 / 10.04.09
I really feel that Lost will become very lame if aliens are the explanation.

How does Locke know where to go? It reminds me of when Locke started wandering around in the jungle, on a hunch, in "All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues". This was the one where, after telling Boone he worked at a box company off-island, Locke magically knows its going to rain in a couple seconds. Much like Ben questioning how Locke knows what to do, Boone asks, "They teach you how to predict the weather at a box company?"

Besides magic weather prediction, Locke was also just wandering in the jungle, pretty much randomly. He asks Boone something to the effect of, "Can't you feel it?" Boone was getting annoyed with this, as you would imagine a person would. Locke seems very adamant that they must continue following his hunch. Then, Locke finds the hatch. So, to me, it looks very much like Locke has had a mental connection with the island that led him on subconscious hunches before.

What DOES lie in the shadow of the statue? What is Illana's agenda? Perhaps most importantly, what is in that box? Allow me to make some educated guesses. The crate has "Ajira" written on the side. Therefore, I'm assuming the crate came from the plane and was not already on the island. It could be a crate of weapons. It could be something that Widmore sent with agents of his own on the plane. It could be flying saucer parts. I don't know.
 
 
_pin
08:20 / 10.04.09
Ilana has an agenda, Alex? She might have had one, once, but now she has whatever the brainwashing has as agenda, surely?

Do brainwashed people become full Others? Are they already? I, for one, would like to see an organisational chart, but my wrong hunch says that Ben wants Rousseau to run away from the whispers so Widmore doesn't know the extent of his betrayal (which depends on Widmore ordering the hit on both of them against Jacob-island's wishes).

And I don't think Ben came out of that episode very well, Tsuga, but he certainly came out of the flashbacks like a baby-licking saint. Which, handily, raises yet more legitimate, in-text doubt about what we've already seen (to add to the show's ability to force an event to happen regardless of agency).
 
 
alex supertramp
15:36 / 10.04.09
I think Ben told Rousseau to run away from the whispers because often the whispers accompany an appearance of the monster.
 
 
_pin
15:44 / 10.04.09
They don't, do they? I'd always thought of them as a disease vector for "the infection", which I thought was the brainwashing.

In retrospect, I'm not sure how I came to that conclusion.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
16:23 / 10.04.09
I think Ben told Rousseau to run away from the whispers because often the whispers accompany an appearance of the monster.

I read that scene like "I'm sparing your life. If you want to live, stay away from whispers. That's us and the people who sent me here wanted me to kill you. If they find you alive or near our shit, they'll kill you."
 
 
alex supertramp
20:55 / 10.04.09
On second thought, I really have no idea exactly what the whispers are. If you look them up on Lostpedia, you'll find that they are actually saying significant things a lot of the time. They have transcripts of the whispers. Sometimes they are commenting on the situation the characters are going through. Sometimes they say things like "Should we tell him?" and they often are multiple people debating something with each other.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
23:44 / 10.04.09
I've been thinking they are related to the time-shifting nature of the island. Echoes of things said in those places from other timeframes, but I'm not sure how that really is borne out by the events of the show.
 
 
alex supertramp
21:11 / 11.04.09
The others may have the ability to transport themselves through time and space. Bear with me here.

Remember, when Miss Clugh asked Michael if Walt had ever been somewhere he wasn't supposed to be, and how we saw Walt appear to Locke, Shannon, Shannon and Sayiid together? Juliet's psychiatrist, I forget her name, she appeared to Juliet and Jack in the jungle, accompanied by whispers. Then, she freakin' disappeared. In Dead is Dead, Sawyer asked Richard how he just appeared out of the middle of the jungle, and Alpert dodged the question by saying "You asked for me, here I am!"

Is it possible that the others can astrally project through time, or teleport themselves?

While I definitely think its possible that the whispers are time travel related, I'm thinking that its more dead people's consciousness stored as electromagnetic software on the island's hardware.
 
 
Bandini
21:25 / 11.04.09
Which comes back to some similarities with The Invention of Morel.
 
 
Spaniel
20:26 / 12.04.09
Keith, that's how I read that scene too.

I've wondered about the Others teleporting and/or astral projecting before. The thing on my mind re all the phantoms and possibly the whispers at the moment is the fact that Miles, almost certainly a Islander by birth, can speak with the dead
 
  

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